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Mass-Produced FWD Front Uprights
scootz - 27/8/14 at 06:19 PM

Does any kit manufacturer use a modified front upright from a mass-produced FWD car on the front of their RWD kit car?

I only ask as I have a FWD reverse-trike itch that I think may need scratched (*) and it would make things a lot easier to use the front-corners of an established kit.

* until I get bored with it, break-it, and sell the bits to you lot!

ettore bugatti - 27/8/14 at 06:38 PM

Quantum did as did Midas, but they took the whole suspension from the donor.

Which is something youcould do as well

[Edited on 27/8/14 by ettore bugatti]

scootz - 27/8/14 at 06:49 PM

I had thought about using the entire front-end components from the donor (Ford Puma).

I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the existing Macpherson strut arrangement to work well on a 350kg vehicle though.

The Quantum Xtreme front uprights look like they may have been used for a FWD vehicle, but I can't work out which one.

big_wasa - 27/8/14 at 07:02 PM

More a case of packaging the strut so it doesn't look like dogs diner.

Sylva mojo





And the onyx firecat springs to mind.

iank - 27/8/14 at 07:04 PM

Classic mini with stripped out CV joints has been used many times, no modification required, fairly light and double wishbone from the factory.

Best image I could find.


[Edited on 27/8/14 by iank]

scootz - 27/8/14 at 07:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
More a case of packaging the strut so it doesn't look like dogs diner.



I'd be happy enough with a MacP strut and copying the Puma's geometry... but only if I thought I could get a strut that can be damped / sprung correctly for the vehicle weight (and at sensible money).

scootz - 27/8/14 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by iank
Classic mini with stripped out CV joints has been used many times, no modification required, fairly light and double wishbone from the factory.


A-ha! Hadn't even thought (clearly) of the classic Mini. Cheers!

ettore bugatti - 27/8/14 at 07:13 PM

Quantum Extreme has a custom upright with Sierra hubs IIRC.

350kg is light, an option could be to use ATV suspension.

If you dont want to alter the track width of the Puma donor. I would use the whole package, but replace the springs and shocks for some coilovers with springs matched to the new weight and the ride height fine adjusted on the shocks.
As said you need to pay a little more attention to hide it visually, but that shouldn't to much of an issue after a little practice.

austin man - 27/8/14 at 07:33 PM

Give Martin Keenan MKengineering a call he designed some for the Midi he built so should be able to let you know all geometry settings etc

scootz - 27/8/14 at 07:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
If you dont want to alter the track width of the Puma donor. I would use the whole package, but replace the springs and shocks for some coilovers with springs matched to the new weight and the ride height fine adjusted on the shocks.
As said you need to pay a little more attention to hide it visually, but that shouldn't to much of an issue after a little practice.




I'd probably want to keep the Puma track width as that saves money on driveshafts. My idea at present is for a semi-exo design... open at the rear and clothed in Smart Roadster bodywork at the front. This means I could hide the strut towers no bother (they may even come in handy for bodywork locating points).

When you say to use a coilover, would that involve putting an insert in the top of the Puma upright and running double wishbones? Whilst I prefer the idea of a fully adjustable double-wishbone set-up, my main concern with a Puma hybrid would be that I'll be in relatively uncharted territory... and we all know what happens when I set sail in them thar waves!

I would, however, go for it I could find a proven front-end set-up that will accept driveshafts (as per my opening post) and has available references for the placement of the wishbone pick up points.

scootz - 27/8/14 at 07:40 PM

PS - just in case it's not clear... I'd make an arse of the geo if I'm left to my own devices!

PPS - I have the Puma and the Smart bodywork (leftovers from previously abandoned projects).

big_wasa - 27/8/14 at 07:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz PPS - I have the Puma and the Smart bodywork (leftovers from previously abandoned projects).



scootz - 27/8/14 at 07:54 PM

I'm sure that didn't come as a surprise Wasa!

adithorp - 27/8/14 at 07:56 PM

Metro/MGF?

austin man - 27/8/14 at 07:57 PM

so you do keep some things then Scootz

scootz - 27/8/14 at 08:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by austin man
so you do keep some things then Scootz



Just the bits that no-one else wants!

scootz - 27/8/14 at 08:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Metro/MGF?


Hadn't thought of the Metro. Cheers.

MGF? Is that not mid-engined RWD (fixed position uprights)?

adithorp - 27/8/14 at 09:01 PM

Same front upright though.

Sam_68 - 27/8/14 at 09:06 PM

Another vote for classic Mini/Metro from me.

As iank says, it's relatively light, compact, cheap, easily sourced and it's double wishbone, whereas most of the competition is on struts.



Another one that's been used successfully is early Renault 5.

Long in the tooth and rare, now, but it has the advantage of not only being double wishbone, but offering a complete longitudinal engine and gearbox package that doesn't result in the tall, bluff front end that you automatically get with a transverse front engine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/91461951@N08/9646655057/in/photostream/

Personally, though, I'd go for Mini uprights, with a 2CV engine/gearbox (for the air cooling, low CoG and inboard front brakes), or failing that a Guzzi engine coupled to a VW box:



[Edited on 27/8/14 by Sam_68]

scootz - 27/8/14 at 09:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Same front upright though.



Didn't know that... will check it out!

scootz - 27/8/14 at 09:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Another vote for classic Mini/Metro from me.

As iank says, it's relatively light, compact, cheap, easily sourced and it's double wishbone, whereas most of the competition is on struts.



Another one that's been used successfully is early Renault 5.

Long in the tooth and rare, now, but it has the advantage of not only being double wishbone, but offering a complete longitudinal engine and gearbox package that doesn't result in the tall, bluff front end that you automatically get with a transverse front engine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/91461951@N08/9646655057/in/photostream/

Personally, though, I'd go for Mini uprights, with a 2CV engine/gearbox (for the air cooling and inboard front brakes), or failing that a Guzzi engine coupled to a VW box:




Hmmm... I have a VW bus tranny in my garage. I sold the drive flanges off it a while back though.

Was just looking at a Mini front subframe and was wondering about widening it to take the Sigma engine and IB5 box. Thereafter incorporate it into the overall space frame design. I'm not fussed about the front looking a bit 'industrial' as it will be covered. The rear chassis will be a simple single-seater exo type.

Sam_68 - 27/8/14 at 09:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I'm not fussed about the front looking a bit 'industrial' as it will be covered. The rear chassis will be a simple single-seater exo type.


You also need to think about the CoG.

Transverse front engines inevitably place a big lump of weight not merely in front of your axle line, but quite high up. And of course on top of the weight of the engine, you've got to package the radiator, if it's water cooled.

I don't think I've ever seen a nice looking transverse front engined trike, even when the engine is enclosed by bodywork - they always look clumsy and nose-heavy, to me.

JC - 27/8/14 at 09:43 PM

MGF front upright is a metro item - it even has a stub driveshaft in it I'm told!

scootz - 27/8/14 at 09:59 PM

I know what you're saying Sam - I don't think that I've seen one that looks right either.

I have a picture in my head... Smart Roadster front tapering towards the single seater frame immediately after the wheel arch... door panels and wing cut along the crease line and only the top portion used... and meeting the frame at the very end below the roll-hoop (or possibly meeting just behind it to form the rear mudguard?).

Kind of like a 340R, but with the front wheels enclosed and a tapered chassis / bodywork. Oh, and a batmobile-esque wide rear tyre.

Not looking for precision handling (clearly!). Just something that's reasonable fun to drive and the right side of 'safe' (whatever that may be), And to actually FINISH a project!








scootz - 27/8/14 at 09:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JC
MGF front upright is a metro item - it even has a stub driveshaft in it I'm told!


Cheers JC.

ettore bugatti - 27/8/14 at 10:40 PM

Coilover on McPherson

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4397/img106s.jpg

Isn't s Smart Roadster/Coupe not a bit narrower than a Fiesta/Puma?

[Edited on 27/8/14 by ettore bugatti]

bozla - 27/8/14 at 11:30 PM

You could try the race kits Falcon - it's a 750 formula car and uses the uprights from the Seicento. The rear end is converted to de-dion though so might not be suitable.

As everyone else is suggesting, I would also go down the mini/metro/mgf route. Here is an interesting link - showing the different lower ball joints for changing the castor angle. http://www.obsessiveperformancedisorder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=16864&start=60 (about 3/4 down the page).

The only issue with MGF is the odd PCD of the wheels but I don't think it would be a problem getting them re-drilled.

[Edited on 27/8/14 by bozla]

DW100 - 28/8/14 at 09:29 AM

The MGF basically uses two metro front subframes. The front still has an outer CV joint in but not fitted with the ball bearings cage and drive shaft. I've often looked at them as crying out for a twin engine conversion.

You could use the puma uprights with a mushroom in the top like when Sierra uprights are used on 7s

scootz - 28/8/14 at 09:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti

Isn't s Smart Roadster/Coupe not a bit narrower than a Fiesta/Puma?



There's not a huge deal of difference... I'd already accepted that there will have to be a degree of chopping, joining and extending in any case.

I would have taken a mould off the front of the Puma, but I don't think the front-end is all that pretty. That said, I was wondering last night about cutting the Puma in two just behind the engine bay firewall and seeing if it could be attached to a spaceframe without being floppier than a dead eel. It's worth a look as the shell is just getting weighed in when I've taken out the cars guts. Would be a good bit heavier though.

bozla - 28/8/14 at 11:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DW100
The MGF basically uses two metro front subframes. The front still has an outer CV joint in but not fitted with the ball bearings cage and drive shaft. I've often looked at them as crying out for a twin engine conversion.


That would rule!

Andy S - 28/8/14 at 11:30 AM

Ginetta G32 - Mid engine RWD uses the Ford Fiesta MK2 hub and upright at the front. They replaced the drive shaft with a couple of machined spacers and a 1/2" bolt. Upper fitting is an adaptor to fit a ball joint.

Early Tiger Super sixes used the Golf upright and lower wishbone.


Andrew

scootz - 28/8/14 at 01:13 PM

Cheers

ceebmoj - 28/8/14 at 02:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Metro/MGF?


Hadn't thought of the Metro. Cheers.

MGF? Is that not mid-engined RWD (fixed position uprights)?


same front upright but with a 17 mm bolt (I think) through the drive flange to keep it in the upright. The S1 Elise uses the same bearing, drive flange and bolt in a alloy machined upright.

ceebmoj - 28/8/14 at 02:46 PM

Scootz Did you get any where with the red RX8 you purchased for a project?

[Edited on 28/8/14 by ceebmoj]

scootz - 28/8/14 at 08:26 PM

Gutted it and scrapped the shell.

Mulled over the engine and gearbox for a while, but decided it was going to cost too much to do it right.

Chopped it in recently and got my money back (for a change!).