Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 12:52 PM |
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NOTE from Admin: This thread has been split out from here due to
it going way off topic. Whilst there is an obvious element of bickering between two parties I feel there is also some relevant technical discussion
and hence I am letting this thread run on it's own merit for now. Please all contributors keep this factual and on topic or risk the thread being
locked/deleted.
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
The last jobs I managed were the rear suspension brackets, namely the rocker mounts and the inboard shock mounts:
 
You might want to think carefully about the arrangement of those rocker mounts.
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 01:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
You might want to think carefully about the arrangement of those rocker mounts.
I have, its a simple system I have used a number of times in the past on my personal and comercial projects. I've been thinking about it and
using for years.
The central web between the two rod end mounts is still "to be added"
[Edited on 4/1/16 by Doctor Derek Doctors]
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:03 PM |
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OK.
You haven't run into any problems of rapid wear on the rod ends, due to limited rotation?
Personally, I usually use angular contact ball bearings (cheaper than rod ends, lower friction, wear better, look neater), but if you're happy
with a plain bearing surface, then DU bearings/bushes are at least as effective as rod ends/spherical bearings; lighter, neater and much
cheaper, so replacement as a short-life service item is rather more palatable.
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:18 PM |
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I used the system for 4 years on one car, the rod ends never needed replacing and were still going strong.
There are other bearings which work in a more optimal way but you have to figure in the cost/time/skill in making the rockers and mounts to take
roller bearings which is a lot greater than the rod end system and with this being a budget home build car that is more of a concern.
Its a home build so if someone wants to do something different thats completely upto them as well, I'll even do the design work.
Hae you got any pictures of you Supercharged Duratec Comercail project? I would be interested in having a look.
[Edited on 4/1/16 by Doctor Derek Doctors]
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
There are other bearings which work in a more optimal way but you have to figure in the cost/time/skill in making the rockers and mounts to take
roller bearings which is a lot greater than the rod end system and with this being a budget home build car that is more of a concern.
Yes, angular contact or taper roller bearings are a little more involved in terms of the rocker design, but DU bearings are much simpler and
cheaper than your rod end arrangement (and neater, and more rigid), if you design them right.
It seems an odd and inappropriate use of rod ends, to me, but if you're happy with it.... 
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
There are other bearings which work in a more optimal way but you have to figure in the cost/time/skill in making the rockers and mounts to take
roller bearings which is a lot greater than the rod end system and with this being a budget home build car that is more of a concern.
Yes, angular contact or taper roller bearings are a little more involved in terms of the rocker design, but DU bearings are much simpler and
cheaper than your rod end arrangement (and neater, and more rigid), if you design them right.
It seems an odd and inappropriate use of rod ends, to me, but if you're happy with it....
Have you got any pictures of the arrangement on you SC Duratec Project? I'm always interested to see what people are doing.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
Hae you got any pictures of you Supercharged Duratec Comercail project? I would be interested in having a look.
Sorry, missed this!
Not that I'm allowed to release at the moment, I'm afraid. We're under construction with two prototype chassis at present (one for
the supercharged, one for base spec N/A MZR/Duratec), the S/C engine is built and ready for installation and I'm in the process of finalising
the body design and other details, but the guy who's running the project is absolutely insistent that he wants prototypes fully finished and
thoroughly tested before we break cover... too many projects lose credibility and fail as a result of exposing their protracted development to public
view, we feel.
If everything runs to plan, look out for us at next year's Autosports show.
Maybe. 
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 02:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
Hae you got any pictures of you Supercharged Duratec Comercail project? I would be interested in having a look.
Sorry, missed this!
Not that I'm allowed to release at the moment, I'm afraid. We're under construction with two prototype chassis at present (one for
the supercharged, one for base spec N/A MZR/Duratec), the S/C engine is built and ready for installation and I'm in the process of finalising
the body design and other details, but the guy who's running the project is absolutely insistent that he wants prototypes fully finished and
thoroughly tested before we break cover... too many projects lose credibility and fail as a result of exposing their protracted development to public
view, we feel.
If everything runs to plan, look out for us at next year's Autosports show.
Maybe.
Whats your company?
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 03:16 PM |
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Again, I'm not allowed to disclose. You probably wouldn't have heard of them anyway - they are newly formed to produce the car I'm
working on, though the owner's background includes a previous race prep/development company.
For what it's worth, this is an extract of my rocker assembly (quickly doctored to omit/change certain details for confidentiality, which means
that the 'spacer caps' are a bit of a redundant red herring - you could just use plain washers to space the bearings out from the chassis
mounting brackets, if you wished).
As you suggest, the need for a machined housing makes the rocker for angular contact bearings a bit more expensive (though the flip side is that the
bearings are cheaper than decent quality rod ends, and they perform better having less friction). But as I said, if budget/simplicity is that
critical, I'd be looking at DU bushes, if I were you.
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 03:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Again, I'm not allowed to disclose. You probably wouldn't have heard of them anyway
I might have done. I've signed plenty of water tight NDA's but none that said that I couldnt disclose the company name.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 03:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I might have done. I've signed plenty of water tight NDA's but none that said that I couldnt disclose the company name.
And what about contracts of employment that prohibit you from discussing the company and its projects on public forums?
Pretty standard stuff, as far as I'm concerned.
Even with NDA's, it might be OK to say 'I'm working with/for XYZ Ltd.', but 'I'm working with XYZ Ltd. developing
this sort of product and these are its design features' is a different kettle of spaniels altogether.
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 04:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
And what about contracts of employment that prohibit you from discussing the company and its projects on public forums?
But you are discussing it on a public forum already.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68Not that I'm allowed to release at the moment, I'm afraid. We're under construction with
two prototype chassis at present (one for the supercharged, one for base spec N/A MZR/Duratec), the S/C engine is built and ready for installation and
I'm in the process of finalising the body design and other details, but the guy who's running the project is absolutely insistent that he
wants prototypes fully finished and thoroughly tested before we break cover... too many projects lose credibility and fail as a result of exposing
their protracted development to public view, we feel
Anyway, doesnt matter really.
What day are you at Autosport with the car? I'll come and have a natter.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/1/16 at 04:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
But you are discussing it on a public forum already.
Yes, but I've been extremely careful not to disclose anything commercially or technically confidential about the project, or anything that could
identify my association with it; there are lots of spaceframed 'Sevenesque' cars built each year, and the Duratec, supercharged or
otherwise, is not exactly groundbreaking stuff. We've got a few interesting features, even though it's 'just' an old-fashioned
spaceframe, that I'd really love to be bragging about, but there you go...
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
Anyway, doesn't matter really.
What day are you at Autosport with the car? I'll come and have a natter.
I should stress that's just if everything goes to plan - hence the "Maybe. " - but if we make it, I dare say I'll be
there for the duration, roped in to answer any techy questions. I have firm assurances that I won't have to wear a spandex miniskirt and drape
myself over the car, though, you'll be pleased to learn.
I'll be at this year's show, probably on the Thursday, but we don't have a stand.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 20/1/16 at 12:11 PM |
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That pic above of the rocker cross section shows a lack of understanding of how these things are actually made and implemented in a modern race car.
Amateurish, to say the least. A pair of double row bearings???.Nobody would do that would they? Seriously??
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 22/1/16 by Neville Jones]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/1/16 at 12:58 PM |
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Needle rollers are the usual solution in race cars, of course, but they have limited life (they flat-spot easily) and good quality items are not
cheap. The Nadella RAX series Needle Roller/Thrust Combination Bearing is a particularly nifty solution, but they're about £100 a pop. Probably
not the best solution in an ultra-budget car, and certainly not for a road car that must be expected to do substantial mileage with minimal
maintenance.
But what do you think of Dr Derek's rose joint solution - would you do it that way, or if not, how would you do it? If everybody else is
wrong, why don't you contribute something positive by telling us how to do it right?
[Edited on 20/1/16 by Sam_68]
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40inches
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| posted on 20/1/16 at 04:42 PM |
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OK! I think that's enough  Lets not ruin another very interesting thread with yet another bout of dick waving
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 21/1/16 at 12:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
But what do you think of Dr Derek's rose joint solution - would you do it that way, or if not, how would you do it? If everybody else is
wrong, why don't you contribute something positive by telling us how to do it right?
Did I say it was wrong?
Both the solution above and the spherical joint will do the job, to lesser or greater extents, as will a few other pivot designs.
It's just that I would expect a 'Chief Designer' of any lengthy hands-on experience and merit would exhibit a more thought out total
solution, and more in line with current thinking.
It's certainly not my place to offer solutions to the experts, but I can look at these things with an old engineers viewpoint.
Cheers
Nev.
[Edited on 21/1/16 by Neville Jones]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 21/1/16 at 09:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
..a more thought out total solution, and more in line with current thinking.
It's certainly not my place to offer solutions to the experts, but I can look at these things with an old engineers viewpoint.
In other words, you don't have a f*cking clue, Neville/Rod/Rob/Syd, and you just get off on trolling those who do, just like you did on
this thread.
I understand from others on the Ozclubbies forum that you may be suffering mental health issues at present, in which case I apologise for not treating
you with more sympathy, but my patience with you has worn thin. Having discussed with my MD today, we are in agreement that some of what you posted
above and on other threads is not merely defamatory, but libelous.
I will be contacting the site administrator, also, but let me make clear here, in public, that if you do not delete the inaccurate and defamatory
comments you have posted about me above and on other threads, we will be pursuing the website to disclose your IP address and identity, and thereafter
pursuing legal action against you.
On topic... I have explained above the reasons that I have not chose a solution 'more in line with current thinking' as you put it:
experience has shown that needle rollers have insufficient service life in roadgoing application (and for Dr Derek, they would conflict with his
desire to keep the desing as low budget as possible).
Now please stick to commenting on facts, preferably those which you actually know something about.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 21/1/16 at 09:46 PM |
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It would have been far easier for both of you to keep your opinions to yourselves instead of ruining callans thread,in which he's worked really
hard.
Same old stuff from the pair of you
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Sam_68
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| posted on 21/1/16 at 09:54 PM |
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My comments on the design of the rocker pivot were merely to suggest possibly superior (and cheaper) alternatives, in the interests of being helpful;
I did consciously try to temper my comments to avoid seeming too critical.
[Edited on 22/1/16 by Sam_68]
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 22/1/16 at 07:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
It would have been far easier for both of you to keep your opinions to yourselves instead of ruining callans thread,in which he's worked really
hard.
Same old stuff from the pair of you
Cheers Dan, appreciated
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 22/1/16 at 11:15 AM |
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Martin, and others, I'm not fazed by the legal threats, I've said nothing that can't be shown true. Check your own houses are in
order first.
To keep on topic...
I've got he opinions of a couple of genuine card carrying shirt wearing F1 engineers to guide me, one of whom is currently involved in designing
the suspension for customer GT Supercar builds.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 22/1/16 by Neville Jones]
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40inches
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| posted on 22/1/16 at 11:26 AM |
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Jesus! Neither of you seem to get it do you?
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 22/1/16 at 11:33 AM |
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My apologies.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 22/1/16 at 11:33 AM |
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Sorry, 40inches... I really am - and as I said, I will delete all off-topic posts and comments of mine when this matter (which has been referred to
the site administrator) has been resolved.
In the meanwhile, quite apart form the fact that Nev/Rod/Rob/Syd is deliberately stalking/trolling me at every opportunity, he has now progressed to
making statements which are outright lies, and as such are both libelous and defamatory.
For the sake of my employer, this is simply not something I can tolerate.
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