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Author: Subject: Cooling advice required
mcramsay

posted on 28/5/18 at 09:10 PM Reply With Quote
Cooling advice required

I have a marlin sportster with the S50b32 M3 engine fitted, initially I struggled with keeping the car cool. So I now have a set up which works but really is on the limit. The main issue is having to much engine and not enough room in the engine bay.

- I had to remove the viscous fan fitted on the engine as it just would not fit!
- I have the biggest rad I can fit in the given space fitted
- the rad is fully ducted so air can only go through the rad.
- the bonnet and side panels have lovres cut in to help get hot engine bay air back out
- 14Ē kenlowe fan fitted to the front of the rad as a pusher fan(not ideal but all I can do)
- I tried a Davies craig EP150 electric pump but could not find the room to fit it( going to have another bash at this over the winter)
- the engine is mechanically sound, no head gasket or fueling issues. Also has a new water pump and thermostat fitted to discount these items.

The M3 thermostat opens at 80 and according to the manual the max nominal temp for the engine is 95 so the fan cuts in at 95 and goes off at 88.

The car doesnít overheat in traffic or at a stand still, itís slow speeds with light load that give the issue - the fan has to come on and off to keep things from running away, itís not until I get to 55-60 that the air flow across the rad is enough to keep the temp stable.

As I said the car works and does not overheat but I know if I lose the fan it will run away with its self. Am I being to strict on the fan temp and should I raise it slightly? I know oem gauges donít react to temp changes as quick and ďnormalĒ could be between 85-100 degrees

Any other ideas on how to make things work better, I have one idea of fitting an additional motor bike/ small radiator with a small fan permanently on to give some additional heat loss.. I would fit this in the heater core circuit which is currently blanked off, I could use a small booster pump to help flow around the mini rad in this circuit to help.

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CosKev3

posted on 28/5/18 at 09:16 PM Reply With Quote
What size is the rad compared to a M3 one?

You can't go for a deeper core at all?

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mcramsay

posted on 28/5/18 at 09:31 PM Reply With Quote
I have a 75mm core... literally as thick as I can go, looks like a radiator off an old bus. perhaps too thick that itís restricting a lot of air flow through the rad?
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CosKev3

posted on 28/5/18 at 09:35 PM Reply With Quote
I wouldn't think so ,as the fan wouldn't be able to lower the temp if that was the case?

What grille/mesh is in front of the rad?

The rad is clear, not partially blocked?

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mcramsay

posted on 29/5/18 at 05:50 AM Reply With Quote
The mesh is expanded stainless stuff, Iím going to change for a very open style honeycomb type to try get a bit more air flow, thatís the only trick left to try out. The rad is free from obstacles at the front.
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adithorp

posted on 29/5/18 at 07:28 AM Reply With Quote
Expanded mesh is hugely restrictive. Swap it for woven mesh would see an improvement.





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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 29/5/18 at 08:28 AM Reply With Quote
No experience of car engines, but substituting a too-large Davies Craig on a motorcycle unit has created some heat issues. My guess has been too much flow, not enough time spent by the coolant absorbing/dissipating heat. Probably bollocks, but reducing the flow did help sometimes.
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Slimy38

posted on 29/5/18 at 08:54 AM Reply With Quote
I did read an article about enclosing a radiator, apparently it doesn't necessarily have the effect you're after. Having airflow round the sides of the radiator can create a low pressure behind the rad, which then helps to pull air through. I didn't fully understand the article so I could be talking absolute rubbish.

It might be worth trying a few things that perhaps seem counter-intuitive, similar to what Mayhem mentioned about using a smaller radiator.

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mcerd1

posted on 29/5/18 at 08:54 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mcramsay
- the bonnet and side panels have lovres cut in to help get hot engine bay air back out


got any pics of where they are placed ?
as some area's vent better than others


you could make some flared side panels like most of the bike engine dax rush's use:


[Edited on 29/5/2018 by mcerd1]





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russbost

posted on 29/5/18 at 09:25 AM Reply With Quote
You've said "- the rad is fully ducted so air can only go through the rad" - I cannot over emphasize the importance of this & of having the ducting properly sealed, no gaps for air to escape past Similarly the pusher fan, is that sealed to the front of the rad or does it have gaps around the edge of the shroud - I actually Siraflex my fans to the radiator to provide a complete seal.

From what you've said, I assume you have an adjustable stat to set what temp the fan comes in at? Those can be notoriously inaccurate &/or inconsistent, I would set it to come in 10 degrees earlier to be on the safe side - it won't make any difference to the eventual temps, but it will take it longer to get there

Could you duct additional air in from below/behind the grille with a simple ali panel?

Lastly if all else has failed & you've replaced the expanded mesh, then can you not simply get a more powerful fan, nothing wrong with having a fan running as long as it's doing its job





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jacko

posted on 29/5/18 at 12:26 PM Reply With Quote
Is the fan working on the engine thermostat ? if so get a adjustable thermostat switch so you can set the on off to what you want
Also as others have said get a open mesh on the front grill

jacko

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rdodger

posted on 29/5/18 at 12:34 PM Reply With Quote
You say you have louvers to let the air out. Do they let enough out? Are they the same area as the inlet?
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Smoking Frog

posted on 29/5/18 at 01:14 PM Reply With Quote
Waterless coolant? Never tried it myself.
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russbost

posted on 29/5/18 at 01:22 PM Reply With Quote
The above comment reminded me - one of the "water wetter" type agents does usually help a little, will only knock a couple of degrees off tho'





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rodgling

posted on 29/5/18 at 04:51 PM Reply With Quote
I got some good improvements by using thermocure on my engine (also S50B32) - this flushes out the rust and improves flow through the block. It's an easy thing to try so definitely worth a go, but obviously if your engine is not rusty it won't be able to help.
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mcramsay

posted on 29/5/18 at 04:52 PM Reply With Quote
Definitely agree the the mesh could be opened up a lot more so this will be my next step. And also I will 100% seal off all gaps around the rad Iím sure there are bits I have missed.

Louvre wise there are more than enough, to the point I could not phsyically have any more stamped in without it looking really stupid!

The fan is as big as I can fit.. and it does work and control the temperatures even on moderarate throttle doing slow speeds. I am just very conscious that Iím relying heavily on it working.

I have a Davies craig water pump/fan controller controlling the fan cut in temperature (pump is not on the car and has an LED across the harness pins) so it only operates the fan. The sensor for this is located right next to the stock coolant sensor for the ecu and they both are within a degree of each other so I know itís accurate.


Thanks for the suggestions.. I know I will never get it perfect but it would be nice to be able to bumble along at 30 without seeing the fan cutting in and out repeatedly!

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chris

posted on 29/5/18 at 06:07 PM Reply With Quote
I had a three core radiator and thought that would do a good job of keeping my newly turboed engine cool but it didn't and I went back to a two core and gave the engine bay more ventilation and so far so good
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kenton

posted on 29/5/18 at 06:28 PM Reply With Quote
Just a thought but a friend had the same symptoms as you.
It turned out the "pusher " fan he bought was actually a "sucker".
While stationary or at low speeds the fan could overcome the airflow through the rad.
Med speeds they canceled each other out so the car overheated.
At higher speeds the airflow through the rad was enough to out weigh the fans resistance.

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mcramsay

posted on 29/5/18 at 06:35 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks mate but the rad fan has a big arrow on the side staring which way it should be mounted 100% got it on the correct way! Thanks though!!
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russbost

posted on 29/5/18 at 06:50 PM Reply With Quote
Bigger fan doesn't automatically mean "fan that shifts the most air" - smaller or same size fan with more powerful motor can shift more air, an alternative is to add a second fan to work in tandem, pull the air thro' the grille to give the fan you currently have cooler, higher pressure air to push through the rad - as said above pushing air thro' 3 cores can be difficult.

Best as a last resort, try the easy simple stuff first!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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number-1

posted on 30/5/18 at 01:12 PM Reply With Quote
Has anyone got a link for the woven mesh? Ive got the expanded mesh on my car and will probably swap it now that ive read this
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Bluemoon

posted on 30/5/18 at 01:37 PM Reply With Quote
https://www.themeshcompany.com/products/A3-Sheet-Format--300-x-420mm--p1.html
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mcramsay

posted on 6/6/18 at 07:52 PM Reply With Quote
Just to close out this thread. I learned a valuable lesson tonight! No matter how big your radiator if you donít have enough air getting to it, itís pretty much useless!

I changed the grille to a woven wire type... massive massive improvement. The cooling fan did not come on once, and the thermostat was hardily opening, the temp of the air coming into the cockpit was nice and cool as opposed to being roasted previously! The temps never creeped above 86 and it maintained 85 pretty steadily for the whole drive regardless of speed.


The fan comes on when sat in traffic and does itís job, and the car keeps itís self at the correct temp when driving at any speed... exactly what I wanted. I just wish the front wing bracket hadnít sheared on the drive home. Luckily the tyre and Mud guard are both un damaged!

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adithorp

posted on 6/6/18 at 07:58 PM Reply With Quote
Nice one.





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russbost

posted on 6/6/18 at 08:12 PM Reply With Quote
Like I said, always try the simple stuff first! Good result!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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