I had to cut the old type 9 mount to extract the gearbox!! don't know how it is going back in and I also had to seperate box and engine to get
it all out.
Having got everything out and deciding on a conclusion in this thread to the cooling setup:
I placed an order with Bogg Brothers to make up the manifolds, join the pair of them together, create something to link the throttles and provide
points for 3 water temp sensors. (1 dash, 1 for MS, 1 for EWP, I know I could have maybe consolidated but it works like this)
This is what I got back, looking at them, I am very happy with what they did:
I also decided to get a refurbed gearbox from TM-Transmissions. I was up that way for work and part exchanged my one which was working, but just
didn't seem great with a heavy duty one with a higher 5th gear - whilst everything is in pieces....!
I got distracted getting a car lift thanks to someone on hear kindly bringing it to my attention! :
So I am at the point of fitting a return fuel line and additional wiring down the tunnel, tidying up the wiring as the car was already converted from
pinto to v8 and the passed and there is a surplus of wires! Also new bushes and maybe more bits on the gearchange remote, tho as obsolete these bits
are very pricey too!, but I don't want to have to take engine and box out again.....
I'm also getting 2 o2 sensor bungs fitted, with the plan to run with 1 but have both available for setup, getting the flywheel lightened and
balanced with a new clutch. before getting the engine and box refitted.
my next big purchase, which I wasn't expected the high bill for is the wide band o2 sensor and controller. I'm not sure what to go for.
the LC2 from Innovate seems the cheapest, but I am not necessarily reading that it is very reliable and thoughts?
and on the matter, the sensor install guides suggest the sesnor should be horizontal, or 10% off vertical.. I am thinking that I will have to have it
vertical as I am sure most do ?
Chris
[Edited on 23/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 02:09 PM
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right
banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
scudderfish - 23/6/14 at 02:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right
banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
But that would then mean that the throttle spindles would be at opposite ends of the engine and rotating in different directions.
Chris_Xtreme - 23/6/14 at 02:16 PM
interesting (and of course I don't mind, any knowledge the better!) , I didn't ask BBs to do this they did it to get the throttle linkage
sorted.
I was kind a thinking that as I was going to be controlling them individually anyway that it wouldn't make any difference.
can you expand a bit more as to what isn't going to work so well, so I can go and quizz them?
cheers
jeffw - 23/6/14 at 02:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by scudderfish
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right
banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
But that would then mean that the throttle spindles would be at opposite ends of the engine and rotating in different directions.
The spindle goes all the way through does it not?
Chris_Xtreme - 23/6/14 at 02:53 PM
TPS at the other end and BBs said he couldn't join those 2 together (without a lot of work ie cost!)
scudderfish - 23/6/14 at 02:55 PM
Typo on my part. yes the spindle goes all the way through, but the throttle linkage is at one end, and TPS at the other. If you were to turn one of
them around, the linkages would be at different ends. If you moved the linkage from one end to the other, it would then want to rotate in the
opposite direction.
Chris_Xtreme - 23/6/14 at 02:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right
banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
So, to try and help myself out and not loose the potential problem, any more detail on this ?
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 03:14 PM
If i was designing it i would use stock bike TBs with standard throttle linkages, with 2 short (as short as possible) cables to a common rotating disk
mounted in the valley, cables mounted apposing each other on opposite edges of the disk. Then the throttle peddle cable connected to the disk. Same
idea as a Jag v12. (jag used rods, but you could use cables)
I know there is a risk of the cables stretching, and it would be awkward to balance first off, but its less of a risk than driving the second set of
throttle bodies from the end of the first - this will cause issues as the first set of throttles (the spindle) is taking the load of its self and the
other set, this will cause the first to twist.
If you look and any pukka TB kits (such as Jenvey) or even webber carbs the throttle is controlled from the center not from the end, in the case of
V6/8/12 engines there is always a common center linkage.
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 03:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right
banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
So, to try and help myself out and not loose the potential problem, any more detail on this ?
The throttle plate rotation in relation to the port effects air flow, at part throttle the TBs are deigned to create turbulence into which the
injector fires fuel, this turbulent air is required to insure i good mix of air/fuel. In an ideal world the 100% uniform air/fuel mix will then be
drawn into the engine - if this was true it would not matter which way the throttle plate rotated or the position of the injector would not
matter.....
But we know from hours on the dyno that injector and throttle postilion as an effect on power, we have seen power gains by turning Jenvey TBs upside
down (so the injector is on the underside).
So, in the case of your engine the left bank will not be running the same as the right bank. Not a good plan :-)
Chris_Xtreme - 23/6/14 at 03:26 PM
ah ok, it sounded like you were saying it wouldn't work ..
I'll take a look and see how happy I am strength wise on the twisting front. what ever option is going to be a trade off between best and
possibly in this case, most expensive solution, to one that is practical and works and is value for money.
appreciate the input.
rdodger - 23/6/14 at 03:36 PM
Rotation shouldn't be a problem if you can swop the spindle around, rotate 1 disc through 180 and fit the link on a diagonal.
That would be similar to how Claire does the KV6 on bike TB's
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 03:44 PM
quote:Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
ah ok, it sounded like you were saying it wouldn't work ..
I'll take a look and see how happy I am strength wise on the twisting front. what ever option is going to be a trade off between best and
possibly in this case, most expensive solution, to one that is practical and works and is value for money.
appreciate the input.
I will work, (the engine will run) but its wont be right, if you have any tuning issues or driveablity issues you will be wishing you did it properly
the first time :-)
If i was you i'd have a rethink about the linkage and rotate one set of TBs
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 03:49 PM
quote:Originally posted by rdodger
Rotation shouldn't be a problem if you can swop the spindle around, rotate 1 disc through 180 and fit the link on a diagonal.
That would be similar to how Claire does the KV6 on bike TB's
Yes, that will work, but the issue of load/twist on the first set of throttle bodies still exists - i have seen several bike TB conversions on V6/V8s
including one of Claire's, fine at anything over 20% throttle, poor at light throttle, virtually impossible to get equal are flow on all
cylinders......folks always check balance at idle only, its a different story if its checked at light throttle as well.
BaileyPerformance - 23/6/14 at 04:14 PM
Just from our experience with Rover V8s.....
The power limitations come from the breathing ability of the stock heads, even race heads are poor compared to a more modern engine - a Pinto breathes
better than a Rover V8 and will make more power per CC.
A few years ago we installed megasquirt with MSD ignition on a turned Real Steel 4.3L, we used a stock 3.9 plenum (single throttle. It ran well, from
memory around 230BHP.
We decided to attempt to get more out of it, so we had made a "twin plenum" (copied from BLs racing days) we used 2 stock plenum tops cut in
half and welded together to form a two-throttle system. Now the engine had twice the throttle area to go at....
Made bugger all difference !! (give or take afew BHP) but it did pick up quicker.
Unless the engine has been modified with a full race cam, full race heads with decent exhaust adding throttle bodies wont make a massive difference,
in fact if the TBs are on the small side (most bike ones are) then you could lose power, as the effective throttle area will be less then the stock
EFI setup
The best NA rover we have seen was a full race jobbie, 5.5L, 11/1CR piper 300 cam in a TVR...374BHP.
68BHP per liter, same as mildly tuned 2.0L pinto.
Not trying to criticize yours or anyone else's project, TBs will make the engine more snappy, but the best option in my opinion would be fit a
stock 3.9L rover plenum with megasquirt, you will have no linkage or balancing issues and probably better MPG.
The stock plenum can be ported and matched to your heads if modified, there is plenty of meat in the runners.
Chris_Xtreme - 23/6/14 at 04:33 PM
I hear you, know all that from research done before, but mainly doing it for the challenge and hopefully mainly a smoother drive to the carb.
Plus I've spent too much on this route now to give up on it!
[Edited on 23/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]
clairetoo - 23/6/14 at 05:19 PM
I tried a rod linkage at first - with contra-rotating spindles , there is no way of getting it to work (believe me , I tried !) I now use a cable
between the banks - its inly a few inches long , and always under load , so stretch is not an issue , and onve settled stays in balance well .
Chris_Xtreme - 24/6/14 at 09:54 PM
ok I'm gonna park the throttle linkage for now and come back to it, when I have got the engine back in and I've got some space to get it out
of the box again etc.. thanks for all the input re it.
So I tried fitting the trigger wheel tonight, figuring that if the pulley needs to go with the flywheel for the balancing that it would be best with
the trigger wheel on.
only just fits!
the sensor fitting is going to be fun, one bolt to easily work with, I think the other is going to have to be shared with the alternator and be home
made...
I think I will just get away with this..
If I may, go back to an earlier discussion point I had hoped to have raised, which is what are the current thoughts on o2 wideband controllers and how
to people think the innovate LC1/LC2 fare, it seems to be the cheapest by far.... but should that be telling me something..?
BaileyPerformance - 25/6/14 at 08:58 AM
We use 2 innovate LC1s on the dyno, work great.
No real need to have 2 sensors on your car, unless you configure ECU to trim each bank individually (which is possible, but not required)
If I was you I'd get the throttles sorted, only install one LC1, if your throttles are balanced both banks will be the same.
Chris_Xtreme - 25/6/14 at 09:02 AM
that is good to hear!
I was planning on running the one, but having the bung on both pipes for tuning / checking both sides to behave the same.
cheers
BaileyPerformance - 25/6/14 at 10:03 AM
quote:Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
that is good to hear!
I was planning on running the one, but having the bung on both pipes for tuning / checking both sides to behave the same.
cheers [/quot
can i offer my services to map it for you?
plenty of satisfied customers on here, £250 for a day on the dyno
Chris_Xtreme - 25/6/14 at 10:08 AM
I will certainly consider your selves as an option.. you are a 3hr+ drive away from me tho! but if you do megasquirt and bike TBs the distance may be
a necessity.
I am down near wimbledon SW london.
don't bank on it being any time soon!
BaileyPerformance - 25/6/14 at 11:24 AM
we have mapped all sorts - some mega rover v8s, turbo, supercharged, nitrous
we have had customers from London, Ireland, Scotland, jersey
big hole I had to cut to re hang the clutch fork, now has a plate.
the gear change remote thing has been cleaned up, and refitted with new bushes. obsolete parts don't half cost a bit!
dropping off flywheel for a lightening, and exhaust for o2 sonsor bungs to be fitted. continue in 2 weeks when I return from hols.
decided on innovate lc2 controller and sensor..
going to try and add a cheepo bluetooth module to the megasquirt inline with the serial port so can use the phone for something like msdroid...
[Edited on 30/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]
Chris_Xtreme - 12/8/14 at 07:58 AM
some more of the story as such.. wife and kids went to the inlaws, my Dad popped down for a few days and we managed to get the engine and gearbox back
in.
got it in in one piece !! but not over the gearbox mount:
took a the crank pulley off which let it squeeze in, also far easier with another pair of hands and in the day light!
had to modify the gearbox mount as there was no way I could get it all to go in other wise. The suggestion was to take the gear change extender off
and put it on after, which would give me the vertical movement to get it over the mount, but I couldn't see a way to reach the bolts, so felt
this was the best option. I then levered the lowered lip down with screwdriver on my chest, and then pulled the gearbox into the tunnel with my other
hand at the back of the car. crazy, but it worked and it is in.
typically I got my bell housing plate bolts in the wrong place! have to trim some of the bracket out of the way:
and annoyingly my new fuel line comes up to meet an exhaust pipe! have to move that!.
and to remind myself of the goal:
I trimmed the hole in the bonnet a bit and they fit under - not sure what to do about air filters etc.
Next steps put all the wiring back, oil pump, cooling system and plumb up the new cooling configuration. Then onto MS !
scudderfish - 12/8/14 at 11:14 AM
What was the before/after weight of the flywheel?
Regards,
Dave
Chris_Xtreme - 12/8/14 at 11:16 AM
flywheel was about 28kg before, and now I forgot to weigh it, but I reckon about 12kg.
a pretty big diet!
scratch those numbers, I can't remember at all I am getting lbs and kgs mixed up !!!
I will revise it to say it was very heavy and needed 2 hands to pick it up, I can now pick it up with 1 !
[Edited on 12/8/14 by Chris_Xtreme]
r1_pete - 12/8/14 at 11:43 AM
To go back to your throttle shaft setup, could you use an 8mm or so central shaft and rose joints?
I had the same issue, although mine's a straight 6, of not wanting to stress one shaft more than the other, here's what I did, you could do
similar if you reverse a set of bodies...
my gosh it has been ages! I am terrible at updating frequently and unfortunately I managed to double upload my pics to my google+ album, deleted one
of them, which unfortunately was the one the previous posts where using.
So, I think lots has happened, made a bracket for the VR sensor, got the MS wired up for 4 spark outputs, decided to go for LS2 coils (for fun), wired
everything up, (some with temporary connector blocks whilst I sussed it out) turned it over and proved that things seem to work with it all wired up.
ie I can hear the injectors clicking and can see sparks.
I've just got a swirl pot and am ready to plumb it in with a test setup at the back of the car.(out on the floor behind the car!)
thought I better get a post up as hopefully in a few days I will have tried to start it and will be amazed to see how well the tunerstudio auto tune
feature works!
some pics:
Yes I know I might have to switch a TB bank round in the future..
went for a LC2 innovate wideband controller..
the joy of wires!
embarrassed my self by thinking the starter wasn't engaging on the flywheel. turned out it was fine and I just could see it! Had the spark plugs
out and all I could hear was electric motor whine. sorted the VR sensor wiring so it read something and got a reading.
I know there is a lot of tidy up to do, but just want to see if the thing works!
It saw daylight for the first time in months:
scudderfish - 17/2/15 at 06:14 PM
Don't have the swirl pot on the floor below the level of the HP pump as it won't self prime and it'll cook itself in short order.
Chris_Xtreme - 17/2/15 at 06:25 PM
Thanks for the tip, the HP pump is on the floor the swirl pot is going to be up on a bit of wood!
scudderfish - 17/2/15 at 06:27 PM
That was actually one mistake I didn't make doing mine
Chris_Xtreme - 18/2/15 at 09:10 AM
temp fuel setup!
swirl pot will be raised up for trial.
(I have a deadline decision to make, ie pay remainder of skcc euro trip money by the end of the month, so have to see if it runs and how confident I
am I can finish it by May!)
not sure about the yellow fuel, it has been sitting since last March.. That is what is left after a few days sitting, so it has vented off alot.
Chris_Xtreme - 19/2/15 at 09:56 AM
well did a fuel leak test last night, no leaks, adjusted the FPR to 50psi, still no leaks.
rolled it out of the garage.
tried to start it, fuel was coming out of the injectors, wondering why it wasn't trying to start,
Doh! I hadn't popped the fuses in for the coils!
Then the battery was drained.... It did try a little and some smoke came out of the exhausts
mainly myself and Gary get to live another day and try again Sat PM, if not fri eve.
Chris_Xtreme - 21/2/15 at 07:40 PM
Chris_Xtreme - 21/2/15 at 07:47 PM
well .. at last got to try and start it.
I had sat down and gone over the MS settings again, realised it hadn't saved the required fueling as I had set it, i hadn't burnt it down
properly.
on from that it got going. needed more air, so too much fuel. but hey it started !
going on, it did run for a while, realised I had a coolant leak - thankfully just a loose hose.
tweaked the map - ve table and actually got it to idle with no throttle at about 850rpm.
try to increase rpm was diabolical! lots of popping and banging.. oddly a spark tester I bought this morning didn't work at all nor the timing
light.
I realised it was running in MAP mode.. changed that to ALPHA-N... no change but at least it is using the right setup.
I think there is all the way too much fuel. I wonder if the map I am using was from a larger Rv8, need to investigate.
Idle acually seemed ok by the end, even with an AFR of ~14.
It was odd that on the offside, all exhausts registered ~160degrees C but on the nearside front 2 were nearer 200 and the rear two down at 60.
But hey it was great to have it running again!
Need to get on with a lot more MS reading now!
[Edited on 21/2/15 by Chris_Xtreme]
BaileyPerformance - 21/2/15 at 08:44 PM
Did you balance all the throttles? It is super critical to get them spot on, I suspect that's why your exhaust temps are all over the place
BaileyPerformance - 21/2/15 at 08:46 PM
Aim for an idle of 13afr just to get it running clean and get the throttles balanced, then lean it off abit of the idle quality remains good. If you
end up with I rich idle it doesn't really matter unless you are running CATS
rusty nuts - 21/2/15 at 09:29 PM
Nice one, loved the wind generator
BaileyPerformance - 21/2/15 at 09:48 PM
Just watched your vid, sounded like it kicked back on the starter, double chk your trigger wheel settings (if not using EDIS) and set your cranking
timing a 10.
Double chk with a strobe light that the timing on the engine matches the laptop. Dual back type strive lights don't work properly on a wasted
spark system. You need a basic strobe light without timing control.
scudderfish - 22/2/15 at 09:10 AM
Excellent
Now do everything Dale tells you.
BaileyPerformance - 22/2/15 at 09:43 AM
quote:Originally posted by scudderfish
Excellent
Now do everything Dale tells you.
Scudderfish,
How your v8 going? I remember some concerns about a slightly cool header (conpaired to rest) I also remember it made good power anyway!
Ugg10 - 22/2/15 at 09:51 AM
Just a thought, cool headers on odd cylinders may also be a slight inlet leak (i.e. running a bit lean)? Had a nightmare getting my Zetec to run until
I found that there were leaks around the injectors and then on the inlet manifold gasket.
scudderfish - 22/2/15 at 09:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:Originally posted by scudderfish
Excellent
Now do everything Dale tells you.
Scudderfish,
How your v8 going? I remember some concerns about a slightly cool header (conpaired to rest) I also remember it made good power anyway!
New job has got in the way of most stuff. I've learnt I'm to very good at bodywork/painting making the hole in my bonnet for the carb hat
look better I'm now just sizing up a new fuel tank. When I've had the car out, it still scares the crap out of me The header
wasn't a real issue, just me being able measure something with too much accuracy and worrying about nothing too soon. I may come and visit this
summer for a couple of ideas I have.
Regards,
Dave
Chris_Xtreme - 22/2/15 at 11:01 PM
thanks for the replies.
Dale you are right, I haven't go so far as to balance them. For just a start I was going with the paint marks being lined up from how they were
in the bike. (knowing each bank could be different)
Would you believe that morning I had rushed out early to get a spark tester (one of those pen type ones that works by being near the wires) and a
Gunson G4113 timing light
all machinemart had and both of which didn't work ! yet to double check this against the zafira.
inlet manifold gasket for the air leak, is perhaps a likely contender. I did notice water was getting into the oil, so perhaps that corner is not
quite right. I'll have to look into that.
I still seem to have a long list to go..:
get swirl pot and HP pump fitted into the boot and rear panel.
decided that after hearing the LP pump noise in the video that that is just gonna have to get replaced.
rear tub off, replace fuel pipes up to sender unit as they are starting to crack and are probably too old for current fuel.
replace the seals on the push in drive shafts diff end.. not gonna pass and mot with them as they are.
moving forward, get the passenger footwell wiring all tidied up and fixed back up.
get MS fixed to tunnel or somewhere similar.
engine bay area
fix coolant to oil leak
get trumpets to right height to fit under scoop
balance TBs
check timing as we did think it was perhaps a bit off, we did check it again by removing no1 spark plug and seemed ok. shame no timing light...
brain area - learn MS more, and fuel maps!
all good, fun, and still feels great to have gotten it to fire up
[Edited on 23/2/15 by Chris_Xtreme]
Chris_Xtreme - 23/2/15 at 08:09 PM
how am I getting my timing wrong?
so I have double checked which tooth is next the to VR sensor at TDC. It matches up to the TDC mark on the crank pully and also when we take plug
number one out and watch a pencil come to the top and start dropping down.
I also tried setting it to tooth 27, 25 and 24... using the spreadsheet to calculate the numbers for MS. Tehy would all idle but none let me apply
any throttle.. am I way off?
have I got this right? :
[Edited on 23/2/15 by Chris_Xtreme]
Ugg10 - 23/2/15 at 08:27 PM
Sorry if I am teaching granny to suck the proverbial, stating the obvious etc., but are the plug leads/coilpack/ecu/injectors all connected up and
firing in the right order?
40inches - 23/2/15 at 08:50 PM
I may have the totally wrong end of the stick here (most probably have!) But shouldn't the VR sensor be opposite the fifth tooth?
Or is that only for EDIS8?
Chris_Xtreme - 23/2/15 at 09:33 PM
It is a good point. I really should triple check the coils go to the right plug.
As the tester I bought failed me, I think I will do a manual check, ie take the plugs out and see which ones fire when I just have the connected coil
connected.
No 1 cylinder is the front right as you look at the radiator?
Using ms to control the spark, thus can choose which tooth.
Cheers
scudderfish - 23/2/15 at 10:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
It is a good point. I really should triple check the coils go to the right plug.
Work on the assumption that every one you look at is actually wrong until you have categorically proved and documented that it is not. Check MS to
coil pack and coil pack to spark plug. Stick post it notes on the rocker covers numbered 1-8 so that you don't lose track of which is which as
you are walking around the car. Do something similar with the coil packs. Have the firing order written down somewhere large that you can easily
see.
Chris_Xtreme - 23/2/15 at 10:11 PM
that is how I set them up.. however I have just thought that the one thing I haven't proven is that the spark outputs from MS were labelled up
correctly to which pin they were using. I relied on someone else for that, I clearly have got 4 right wires out of it, but they could be the wrong way
round, even if I have wired the engine bay up right.
would it idle ok if were wrong? I can probable answer that myself as it ran almost ok with 2 plugs out !
does my timing look ok from the picture?
I'm not going mad no1 is front right?
cheers
scudderfish - 23/2/15 at 10:15 PM
Odd cylinders are passenger side, even on the drivers side
quote:Originally posted by Ugg10
Sorry if I am teaching granny to suck the proverbial, stating the obvious etc., but are the plug leads/coilpack/ecu/injectors all connected up and
firing in the right order?
That trigger setup is wrong.
The best way to configure is the same as an EDIS8. Sensor five teeth BEFORE missing tooth.
Also, before you go any further I would strongly recommend you upgrade your ECU to MS2, you do not need to buy a new ECU, you can upgrade yours.
daxtojeiro - 24/2/15 at 02:40 PM
Hi Chris,
looking at the images of the main board, if those 4 wires are feeding the LS2 COPs without any transistors in between them, then I'm afraid its
not wired correctly. Your firing Sparks A and B correctly, but C and D your triggering directly off the uP, which will damage the uP and the signal
will be inverted when compared to the other 2 outputs.
You need to shoot who ever made it and get it built correctly before you plug it in again, as its never going to run well like that.
thanks
Phil
www.ExtraEFI.co.uk
BaileyPerformance - 24/2/15 at 02:52 PM
quote:Originally posted by daxtojeiro
Hi Chris,
looking at the images of the main board, if those 4 wires are feeding the LS2 COPs without any transistors in between them, then I'm afraid its
not wired correctly. Your firing Sparks A and B correctly, but C and D your triggering directly off the uP, which will damage the uP and the signal
will be inverted when compared to the other 2 outputs.
You need to shoot who ever made it and get it built correctly before you plug it in again, as its never going to run well like that.
thanks
Phil
www.ExtraEFI.co.uk
The best thing to do is send your ECU to Phil and get him to upgrade it to MS2 and install the coil drivers properly at the same time.
We have better results with MS2 compared to MS1, same BHP but much better low engine fueling control due to much better resolution.
Also, the MS2 trigger wheel setup easier to get your head around!
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
Toltec - 26/2/15 at 01:33 PM
Hi Chris, I followed your link from skcc.
Possible egg sucking - the coil and injector outputs are in firing order not cylinder order. So output 1 would fire cylinders 1&6 and out2
8&5. Assuming I have the order right, my ms3 is on a 4 pot.
I have four bip373 transistors spare if you need any, I used an Audi coil driver pack and cbr1000 cops instead.
Chris_Xtreme - 26/2/15 at 01:44 PM
quote:Originally posted by Toltec
Hi Chris, I followed your link from skcc.
Possible egg sucking - the coil and injector outputs are in firing order not cylinder order. So output 1 would fire cylinders 1&6 and out2
8&5. Assuming I have the order right, my ms3 is on a 4 pot.
I have four bip373 transistors spare if you need any, I used an Audi coil driver pack and cbr1000 cops instead.
thanks for the pointer.. I am pretty damn certain the firing order is correct. The MS is back with the person who added the spark outputs to it. I
think I know what the issue is..
no amplifiers/ignitors needed thank you as the LS2s have built in ignitors.
"Hi guys. I couldn't find anything when I searched for this, but if it's already known, feel free to scrap my post.
I had some trouble running ground switching four cylinder sequential COP on my V3 board running MS1Extra and I've chased it down to the diagram
instructing on how to make the changes. On the diagram it shows taking Spark A (IGN) and B (SPR4) from the top of the LEDs, while Spark C (SPR2) and D
(SPR3) should be taken from R27 and R1. In this configuration Spark A and B are inverted compared to Spark C and D. I rewired my board to match the 5V
pull-up circuit locations and moved Spark A to R26 and Spark B to R29 and everything is working and aligned properly."
time will tell.
BaileyPerformance - 26/2/15 at 01:54 PM
You cannot drive the coilpack directly from the uP outputs, this is a bad idea.
As you say the coils you are using have built in amps and need to be driven by an 5v signal via a transistor added to the MS.
In the past, just for the sake of keeping all 4 output circuits the same i have added 4 2N2222A transistors with 1k collectors pull ups to 5v, base to
uP output via 1k res.
i suggest you also look at your trigger wheel setup, we have found the best way is to minic an EDIS8.
if you put your VR beyond half way around the wheel the engine appears to take longer to fire.
daxtojeiro - 26/2/15 at 01:59 PM
Hi Chris,
I would have serious doubts about the guy who wired it up for you. He clearly has no idea what he is doing and shouldn't be let anywhere near a
soldering iron.
I wouldn't send it back to him, it will come back with other issues.
If it is who I think it is then we have tried and tried to stop him from using the word "megasquirt" in his company name, but he refuses to
change it.
Just because someone has "MegaSquirt" in their title doesn't mean they are part of the team, he uses the came to fool people into
thinking he knows what he is doing, but this is just another clear case showing he doesn't.
I'm afraid I dont fix other people's ECUs as they are always a nightmare and I end up spending hours on them trying to get them running. The
poor guy then come back for info because they weren't sold with any manuals or instructions and the seller has no ability to back the product up,
because he has no idea what he is doing.
Bottom line is, buy an MS from a reputable dealer who is part of the team and who is on the recommended list on the main MSExtra forum. Better still,
buy from the guy in the UK who wrote a load of the code for the Extra firmware, has a proper warrantee, writes a load of manuals and help files etc
etc,
thanks
Phil
BaileyPerformance - 26/2/15 at 02:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by daxtojeiro
Hi Chris,
I would have serious doubts about the guy who wired it up for you. He clearly has no idea what he is doing and shouldn't be let anywhere near a
soldering iron.
I wouldn't send it back to him, it will come back with other issues.
If it is who I think it is then we have tried and tried to stop him from using the word "megasquirt" in his company name, but he refuses to
change it.
Just because someone has "MegaSquirt" in their title doesn't mean they are part of the team, he uses the came to fool people into
thinking he knows what he is doing, but this is just another clear case showing he doesn't.
I'm afraid I dont fix other people's ECUs as they are always a nightmare and I end up spending hours on them trying to get them running. The
poor guy then come back for info because they weren't sold with any manuals or instructions and the seller has no ability to back the product up,
because he has no idea what he is doing.
Bottom line is, buy an MS from a reputable dealer who is part of the team and who is on the recommended list on the main MSExtra forum. Better still,
buy from the guy in the UK who wrote a load of the code for the Extra firmware, has a proper warrantee, writes a load of manuals and help files etc
etc,
thanks
Phil [/quot
^^^^ and that is why i buy my ECUs from Phil, not sure how meany i have had but its a lot without a single problem!
If you bring the car to me for mapping i will fix your ECU included in the price.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
Irony - 26/2/15 at 02:12 PM
I have recently wired up my Coil Packs for my Rover V8 running Megajolt. I must say it's probably the easiest job I have done on my car that I
managed to mess up time and time again. Seems so simple but it's just not.
Scudderfish and BaileyPerformance basically held my hand through the whole process and it seems to be working fine. My advice is to check, then check
again and check that the drawing your working from is from a reliable source.
daxtojeiro - 26/2/15 at 04:03 PM
Hi Chris,
Im afraid your ECU guy has just contacted me, he doesn't have a clue what to do to make it work and I simply won't help that guy as he is
bringing the MegaSquirt name down with his poorly backed up units and badly built ECUs. It's really not rocket science and he should know how to
wire 4 spark outputs up by now!
My advice to you is get it back and take Dales offer up, it will save you a lot of time in the long run and a lot of money no doubt,
thanks
Phil
Chris_Xtreme - 2/3/15 at 10:58 PM
Hi guys, thanks for the replies.
sorry for the quiet time, had to get a lot of work work done in prep for my Wife going in for a sinus opp tomorrow and being out of the office for a
few days in the middle of a major project, along with a refresher on how the kids days go whilst I am normally out at work!
Just a brief recap, I bought the MS on a bit of whim from someone on here along with the TBs etc etc. I didn't twig at the time that the spark
outputs were not done yet and in hindsight I would have / should have just bought it from you Phil. I totally agree with that.
I opted to farm out the soldering work as I haven't got the kit nor did I want to spend the time practising. Also due to this I didn't
bother learning the wiring diagrams and ask for confirmation before commencing etc.
anyway, I clearly chose the wrong bod to get the job done. hey ho..
so I am where I am. the board is back.
Dale, your offer is very kind and I think I mentioned way back that the problem is my location - ie miles away from you, so there is a logistical
problem. You are 3-4hrs away (160 miles).
I don't have a tow car, so it wouldn't just be the cost of a trailer and staying over somewhere.
The Car's MOT has expired too. And also so much has changed, I really need to prove as much as possible on the drive, even just at idle before
taking it anywhere. Ie does the new cooling setup work, have I got an inlet manifold leak, can I get the TBs reasonably balanced with a
syncrometer.
As my options really are a large expense to get it to and from you, and or buying a new MS from Phil, I decided that I might as well risk the one I
have, I have nothing to loose really.
So I read over the manual and the LS2 coils read as if they want a Ground switching pulse. The resistance I measured over the weekend was 9000ohms.
Now this is what chappie said he had done. However, taking Phil's comment re inverted outputs I got him to follow this post, only on a hunch and
it was worth a try:
"I had some trouble running ground switching four cylinder sequential COP on my V3 board running MS1Extra and I've chased it down to the
diagram instructing on how to make the changes. On the diagram it shows taking Spark A (IGN) and B (SPR4) from the top of the LEDs, while Spark C
(SPR2) and D (SPR3) should be taken from R27 and R1. In this configuration Spark A and B are inverted compared to Spark C and D. I rewired my board to
match the 5V pull-up circuit locations and moved Spark A to R26 and Spark B to R29 and everything is working and aligned properly."
I ended up having to move the wires on the bottom of the board as he had forgotten in his rush to get it back in the post to me-- doh! I managed to
find a soldering Iron at lunchtime today.
So I tried it again. It perhaps seems to be better, I could at least apply some throttle without it being terrible and it did pick up a few revs.. not
a lot.
Dale - I now think I get your point re the trigger wheel. I was thinking I had to move the VR sensor, but I can of course just unbolt the trigger
wheel and twist it round. I thinking my numbers are stil ok as per the wheeldecoder.xls settings, but if the MS is known to be better with a much
lower tooth being at TDC, then I shall move it and see how that fares. Also try changing the inverted setting.
At least like this, I can get it hot etc and try and prove it is worthy of a trip to you Dale.
cheers, Chris
BaileyPerformance - 6/3/15 at 08:03 AM
Hi Chris,
See how you get on but if you still have trouble we may be able to sort a deal to correct ECU and map including transport.
We have a land rover and car trailer.
Happy to give you free support whatever you decide to do, via this forum, email or txt.
dale.bladen@orange.net
Chris_Xtreme - 6/3/15 at 08:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi Chris,
See how you get on but if you still have trouble we may be able to sort a deal to correct ECU and map including transport.
We have a land rover and car trailer.
Happy to give you free support whatever you decide to do, via this forum, email or txt.
dale.bladen@orange.net
Thanks Dale
I'll keep you posted.
Chris_Xtreme - 7/3/15 at 11:05 PM
car presently looks like this, with it's rear off so I can change the fuel hoses to the top of the tank.. they were only R6.
Also wondering what to do with this grease leak as per this fresh topic:
Boot back on, swirl pot and hp pump fitted properly.
I got a chance to play a bit more, saw a post somewhere where the VR sensor was wired the wrong way round - and spark inverted change..
swapped them both and hey presto the timing is right !! (I also moved the TW round to tooth 5 as well, though I am sure that wasn't a problem)
customary video :
DIY Si - 15/3/15 at 03:24 PM
That sounds alright that does!!
Toltec - 15/3/15 at 04:00 PM
I bet that grin never wears off, at full throttle under load it is going to sound awesome.
Chris_Xtreme - 15/3/15 at 08:58 PM
I must confess I had no idea what it was going to sound like, at the time the grin was mainly for YES u have got it to run with what seems to be
proper timing but as I 'had' to rev it a bit more the grin certainly got stuck for the sound track!
I hope it will run under load. Need to tidy up the wiring and a few more bits, balance the TBs and try to get it to a mot.
I see some midnight sessions in the garage coming
simonrh - 15/3/15 at 09:22 PM
Is that stock rv8 except for Carbs? Sounds wicked
Xtreme Kermit - 15/3/15 at 09:58 PM
Sounds absolutely awesome Chris!!!
Chris_Xtreme - 16/3/15 at 01:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by simonrh
Is that stock rv8 except for Carbs? Sounds wicked
Inlet Manifold Gasket Black composite
Edelbrock Performer Inlet Manifold
Head Gasket Composite Head Gasket
Main Bearing Bolts ARP Bolts
Big End Bolts ARP Bolts
Head Bolts ARP Bolts
Camshaft Camshaft ETC 6849 believe Range Rover HC 9.35:1
Inlet Manifold Thermostat housing Chrome Water Neck for US Ford 351 cu in
Timing Chain and gears Billet Camshaft Timing chain and Gear set.
Front Pulley Rover V8 P6 Pulley
Coolant Header Tank Custom made Aluminium header tank
Oil Filter Mann W916/1
Engine Block Rebored to +0.020" 9.35:1 SD1
Pistons Hepolite Rover P6 +0.020" new Pistons
Crank Standard size bearings polished
Flywheel Standard Resurfaced and new clutch locating pins fitted
Timing Chain Cover SD1
Carb SH Holley 390 Carb with primary and secondary metering plates
Oil Pump New Oil Pump gears and housing
Heads SH Rover SD1 Vitesse?
Oil 20W50 Duckhams or Total
Valves New
Rocker Arms New
Sump SD1
this is the list i was given when I bought the car and it was done in 2004/5. interesting points are
Engine Block Rebored to +0.020" 9.35:1 SD1
Pistons Hepolite Rover P6 +0.020" new Pistons
so in short - not a standard 3.5 !
i got a max of 187 hp at around 5000rpm and 206lb ft.. nice flat torque line too. (estimated at the flywheel) with the holley carb setup.
no idea if I will match it with the TBs.
Chris_Xtreme - 27/3/15 at 04:19 PM
Car just passed it's MOT !!
so I am going to pay my money for the SKCC trip - final deadline was this weekend! finished the car at 1:30 last night.
had a bit of a panic last night as one indicator wasn't working, dodgy wiring inherited from previous owner.. typical. This morning I realised
the fog light hadn't been checked, fixed it 5mins before the test in the work car park, corroded connected between bulb and fitting... they
didn't even test it!
So a bit more tidying to do, I need to get the fuelling better as it is too rich now, map is from a bigger rover, (thanks Dave for your map helped no
end), then I will be in touch with Dale to work out when I can get up to you before my trip in May
thanks all for you help along the way and really especially Phil for spotting the spark outputs were inverted, I never would have got running without
that pointer... I'm still using the grounding circuit, but it seems to be working fine for now.
Happy days (better fuel economy is my next challenge!)
DJT - 27/3/15 at 04:32 PM
Excellent, well done. Will be great to have you, and your soundtrack, on the Euro trip.
For the economy, have you not programmed half the cylinders to shut down for cruise? What is your new predicted range?
Chris_Xtreme - 27/3/15 at 04:38 PM
Ha Ha -- presently I still need a bowser, or a refill every hour ~ 70-80miles!- if I'm lucky.. it needs a tune for sure. I really hope it gets
up to at least 20mpg. (this is assuming I have plumbed the numbers into MS correctly so it can be telling me the MPG) I need to fill up, drive, fill
up and do a real test. but today was the first drive in over a year.. so we shall see.
scudderfish - 27/3/15 at 06:31 PM
"I can pass anything on the road, except a petrol station"
rw1GI/AAAAAAAAJIQ/rcGsaevf7Vo/w583-h748-no/IMG_20141210_195417.jpg)
