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Author: Subject: Rover v8 switch to CBR600 ITBs
Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 01:36 PM Reply With Quote
Rover v8 switch to CBR600 ITBs

So I thought I would jot down my progress.

All pics : https://plus.google.com/photos/116862370669776250647/albums/60006 47488901273889

having bought the TBs and megasquirt from :

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=174746

getting an answer to crank case breathing:

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=190212


decided I was going to actually do it,

removed the engine:















I had to cut the old type 9 mount to extract the gearbox!! don't know how it is going back in and I also had to seperate box and engine to get it all out.








Having got everything out and deciding on a conclusion in this thread to the cooling setup:


http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=190356&pag e=1#pid1605523


I placed an order with Bogg Brothers to make up the manifolds, join the pair of them together, create something to link the throttles and provide points for 3 water temp sensors. (1 dash, 1 for MS, 1 for EWP, I know I could have maybe consolidated but it works like this)

This is what I got back, looking at them, I am very happy with what they did:








I also decided to get a refurbed gearbox from TM-Transmissions. I was up that way for work and part exchanged my one which was working, but just didn't seem great with a heavy duty one with a higher 5th gear - whilst everything is in pieces....!

I got distracted getting a car lift thanks to someone on hear kindly bringing it to my attention! :

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=190891


So I am at the point of fitting a return fuel line and additional wiring down the tunnel, tidying up the wiring as the car was already converted from pinto to v8 and the passed and there is a surplus of wires! Also new bushes and maybe more bits on the gearchange remote, tho as obsolete these bits are very pricey too!, but I don't want to have to take engine and box out again.....

I'm also getting 2 o2 sensor bungs fitted, with the plan to run with 1 but have both available for setup, getting the flywheel lightened and balanced with a new clutch. before getting the engine and box refitted.


my next big purchase, which I wasn't expected the high bill for is the wide band o2 sensor and controller. I'm not sure what to go for. the LC2 from Innovate seems the cheapest, but I am not necessarily reading that it is very reliable and thoughts?

and on the matter, the sensor install guides suggest the sesnor should be horizontal, or 10% off vertical.. I am thinking that I will have to have it vertical as I am sure most do ?

Chris

[Edited on 23/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:09 PM Reply With Quote
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.
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scudderfish

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:16 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.


But that would then mean that the throttle spindles would be at opposite ends of the engine and rotating in different directions.

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:16 PM Reply With Quote
interesting (and of course I don't mind, any knowledge the better!) , I didn't ask BBs to do this they did it to get the throttle linkage sorted.

I was kind a thinking that as I was going to be controlling them individually anyway that it wouldn't make any difference.

can you expand a bit more as to what isn't going to work so well, so I can go and quizz them?

cheers

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jeffw

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:46 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.


But that would then mean that the throttle spindles would be at opposite ends of the engine and rotating in different directions.


The spindle goes all the way through does it not?





was 640 BHP per ton.....now 1127BHP per ton

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:53 PM Reply With Quote
TPS at the other end and BBs said he couldn't join those 2 together (without a lot of work ie cost!)
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scudderfish

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:55 PM Reply With Quote
Typo on my part. yes the spindle goes all the way through, but the throttle linkage is at one end, and TPS at the other. If you were to turn one of them around, the linkages would be at different ends. If you moved the linkage from one end to the other, it would then want to rotate in the opposite direction.
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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 02:59 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.


So, to try and help myself out and not loose the potential problem, any more detail on this ?

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:14 PM Reply With Quote
If i was designing it i would use stock bike TBs with standard throttle linkages, with 2 short (as short as possible) cables to a common rotating disk mounted in the valley, cables mounted apposing each other on opposite edges of the disk. Then the throttle peddle cable connected to the disk. Same idea as a Jag v12. (jag used rods, but you could use cables)

I know there is a risk of the cables stretching, and it would be awkward to balance first off, but its less of a risk than driving the second set of throttle bodies from the end of the first - this will cause issues as the first set of throttles (the spindle) is taking the load of its self and the other set, this will cause the first to twist.

If you look and any pukka TB kits (such as Jenvey) or even webber carbs the throttle is controlled from the center not from the end, in the case of V6/8/12 engines there is always a common center linkage.

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:24 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi, one comment if you don't mind, the one set of throttle bodies are the wrong way around, this will cause differences between left and right banks at part throttle, won't make much difference which set you rotate, but I would advise you have the fuel rails in board if possible.


So, to try and help myself out and not loose the potential problem, any more detail on this ?


The throttle plate rotation in relation to the port effects air flow, at part throttle the TBs are deigned to create turbulence into which the injector fires fuel, this turbulent air is required to insure i good mix of air/fuel. In an ideal world the 100% uniform air/fuel mix will then be drawn into the engine - if this was true it would not matter which way the throttle plate rotated or the position of the injector would not matter.....
But we know from hours on the dyno that injector and throttle postilion as an effect on power, we have seen power gains by turning Jenvey TBs upside down (so the injector is on the underside).
So, in the case of your engine the left bank will not be running the same as the right bank. Not a good plan :-)

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:26 PM Reply With Quote
ah ok, it sounded like you were saying it wouldn't work ..

I'll take a look and see how happy I am strength wise on the twisting front. what ever option is going to be a trade off between best and possibly in this case, most expensive solution, to one that is practical and works and is value for money.

appreciate the input.

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rdodger

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:36 PM Reply With Quote
Rotation shouldn't be a problem if you can swop the spindle around, rotate 1 disc through 180 and fit the link on a diagonal.

That would be similar to how Claire does the KV6 on bike TB's






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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:44 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
ah ok, it sounded like you were saying it wouldn't work ..

I'll take a look and see how happy I am strength wise on the twisting front. what ever option is going to be a trade off between best and possibly in this case, most expensive solution, to one that is practical and works and is value for money.

appreciate the input.


I will work, (the engine will run) but its wont be right, if you have any tuning issues or driveablity issues you will be wishing you did it properly the first time :-)
If i was you i'd have a rethink about the linkage and rotate one set of TBs

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 03:49 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Rotation shouldn't be a problem if you can swop the spindle around, rotate 1 disc through 180 and fit the link on a diagonal.

That would be similar to how Claire does the KV6 on bike TB's


Yes, that will work, but the issue of load/twist on the first set of throttle bodies still exists - i have seen several bike TB conversions on V6/V8s including one of Claire's, fine at anything over 20% throttle, poor at light throttle, virtually impossible to get equal are flow on all cylinders......folks always check balance at idle only, its a different story if its checked at light throttle as well.

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 23/6/14 at 04:14 PM Reply With Quote
Just from our experience with Rover V8s.....

The power limitations come from the breathing ability of the stock heads, even race heads are poor compared to a more modern engine - a Pinto breathes better than a Rover V8 and will make more power per CC.

A few years ago we installed megasquirt with MSD ignition on a turned Real Steel 4.3L, we used a stock 3.9 plenum (single throttle. It ran well, from memory around 230BHP.

We decided to attempt to get more out of it, so we had made a "twin plenum" (copied from BLs racing days) we used 2 stock plenum tops cut in half and welded together to form a two-throttle system. Now the engine had twice the throttle area to go at....

Made bugger all difference !! (give or take afew BHP) but it did pick up quicker.

Unless the engine has been modified with a full race cam, full race heads with decent exhaust adding throttle bodies wont make a massive difference, in fact if the TBs are on the small side (most bike ones are) then you could lose power, as the effective throttle area will be less then the stock EFI setup

The best NA rover we have seen was a full race jobbie, 5.5L, 11/1CR piper 300 cam in a TVR...374BHP.

68BHP per liter, same as mildly tuned 2.0L pinto.

Not trying to criticize yours or anyone else's project, TBs will make the engine more snappy, but the best option in my opinion would be fit a stock 3.9L rover plenum with megasquirt, you will have no linkage or balancing issues and probably better MPG.
The stock plenum can be ported and matched to your heads if modified, there is plenty of meat in the runners.

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 23/6/14 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
I hear you, know all that from research done before, but mainly doing it for the challenge and hopefully mainly a smoother drive to the carb.

Plus I've spent too much on this route now to give up on it!

[Edited on 23/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]

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clairetoo

posted on 23/6/14 at 05:19 PM Reply With Quote
I tried a rod linkage at first - with contra-rotating spindles , there is no way of getting it to work (believe me , I tried !) I now use a cable between the banks - its inly a few inches long , and always under load , so stretch is not an issue , and onve settled stays in balance well .








Its cuz I is blond , innit

Claire xx

Will weld for food......

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 24/6/14 at 09:54 PM Reply With Quote
ok I'm gonna park the throttle linkage for now and come back to it, when I have got the engine back in and I've got some space to get it out of the box again etc.. thanks for all the input re it.

So I tried fitting the trigger wheel tonight, figuring that if the pulley needs to go with the flywheel for the balancing that it would be best with the trigger wheel on.

only just fits!

the sensor fitting is going to be fun, one bolt to easily work with, I think the other is going to have to be shared with the alternator and be home made...








I think I will just get away with this..



If I may, go back to an earlier discussion point I had hoped to have raised, which is what are the current thoughts on o2 wideband controllers and how to people think the innovate LC1/LC2 fare, it seems to be the cheapest by far.... but should that be telling me something..?

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 25/6/14 at 08:58 AM Reply With Quote
We use 2 innovate LC1s on the dyno, work great.

No real need to have 2 sensors on your car, unless you configure ECU to trim each bank individually (which is possible, but not required)

If I was you I'd get the throttles sorted, only install one LC1, if your throttles are balanced both banks will be the same.

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 25/6/14 at 09:02 AM Reply With Quote
that is good to hear!

I was planning on running the one, but having the bung on both pipes for tuning / checking both sides to behave the same.

cheers

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 25/6/14 at 10:03 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
that is good to hear!

I was planning on running the one, but having the bung on both pipes for tuning / checking both sides to behave the same.

cheers [/quot


can i offer my services to map it for you?

plenty of satisfied customers on here, 250 for a day on the dyno

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 25/6/14 at 10:08 AM Reply With Quote
I will certainly consider your selves as an option.. you are a 3hr+ drive away from me tho! but if you do megasquirt and bike TBs the distance may be a necessity.

I am down near wimbledon SW london.

don't bank on it being any time soon!

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 25/6/14 at 11:24 AM Reply With Quote
we have mapped all sorts - some mega rover v8s, turbo, supercharged, nitrous

we have had customers from London, Ireland, Scotland, jersey

give us a shout if you need any help

www.baileyperformance.co.uk
dale.bladen@orange.net
07967222967

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 30/6/14 at 02:50 PM Reply With Quote
big hole I had to cut to re hang the clutch fork, now has a plate.


the gear change remote thing has been cleaned up, and refitted with new bushes. obsolete parts don't half cost a bit!




dropping off flywheel for a lightening, and exhaust for o2 sonsor bungs to be fitted. continue in 2 weeks when I return from hols.

decided on innovate lc2 controller and sensor..

going to try and add a cheepo bluetooth module to the megasquirt inline with the serial port so can use the phone for something like msdroid...

[Edited on 30/6/14 by Chris_Xtreme]

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Chris_Xtreme

posted on 12/8/14 at 07:58 AM Reply With Quote
some more of the story as such.. wife and kids went to the inlaws, my Dad popped down for a few days and we managed to get the engine and gearbox back in.

has loads of pics

link : v8 to bike TB


cables tidied and new grommet for MS loom ready:





one lightened flywheel:




ready to go back in:




on it's way:





got it in in one piece !! but not over the gearbox mount:
took a the crank pulley off which let it squeeze in, also far easier with another pair of hands and in the day light!





had to modify the gearbox mount as there was no way I could get it all to go in other wise. The suggestion was to take the gear change extender off and put it on after, which would give me the vertical movement to get it over the mount, but I couldn't see a way to reach the bolts, so felt this was the best option. I then levered the lowered lip down with screwdriver on my chest, and then pulled the gearbox into the tunnel with my other hand at the back of the car. crazy, but it worked and it is in.




typically I got my bell housing plate bolts in the wrong place! have to trim some of the bracket out of the way:






and annoyingly my new fuel line comes up to meet an exhaust pipe! have to move that!.


and to remind myself of the goal:





I trimmed the hole in the bonnet a bit and they fit under - not sure what to do about air filters etc.








Next steps put all the wiring back, oil pump, cooling system and plumb up the new cooling configuration. Then onto MS !

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