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Locost Cybertruck

Replicar328 - 5/12/23 at 06:22 PM

I thought Elon's Cybertruck was just an online joke, but apparently it's real!

Anyone with the appetite for designing and building a scaled down Locost lookalike, maybe with a marine ply monocoque chassis?

With a real engine and gearbox, maybe rear engined transverse like the original Terrapin.

With inline donors ever less available this could be the way to go?

Mr Whippy - 5/12/23 at 08:47 PM

Not sure why you think its a joke, plenty of them about and being tested by reviewers on youtube. Can't say its floats my boat in any way but its just suffering from Musk's usual delays and hands in way too many projects.

I think the days of wooden cars are very much long gone, even notoriously sturdy cars from the 90's like volvo etc are no match for todays overweight juggernauts. You'd be just as safe as sitting in a cardboard box. Imo the cybertruck looks really dated, something off the set of Back to the future or old BladeRunner, a real 80's car, only 40 years well past its sell by date. It just needs a Mr Fusion coffee grinder in the back

[Edited on 5/12/23 by Mr Whippy]

gremlin1234 - 5/12/23 at 09:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Replicar328
I thought Elon's Cybertruck was just an online joke, but apparently it's real!

Anyone with the appetite for designing and building a scaled down Locost lookalike, maybe with a marine ply monocoque chassis?

With a real engine and gearbox, maybe rear engined transverse like the original Terrapin.

With inline donors ever less available this could be the way to go?

why would anybody want a lookalike of something like that?

Simone Giertz 's Truckla has way more style

[Edited on 5-12-2023 by gremlin1234]

craig1410 - 6/12/23 at 12:38 AM

It may be real but it's still a joke, as is musk himself. The guy has no class, no taste and no inherent engineering talent. He simply throws inherited money at people who do have talent and then takes credit for their achievements. Unfortunately he is allegedly also willing to take shortcuts which put people's lives at risk with dodgy self driving software.

The "cybertruck" is an eyesore and I predict it will be a massive flop for Tesla. Yes, some people will buy it and proclaim it as the most amazing vehicle ever but the rest of us will shake our heads as we drive past. Even existing Tesla owners are selling perfectly good cars to avoid any association with this narcissist. And many of those people realise that there are plenty of better alternatives in the EV market.

Mr Whippy - 6/12/23 at 07:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234

quote:
Originally posted by Replicar328
I thought Elon's Cybertruck was just an online joke, but apparently it's real!

Anyone with the appetite for designing and building a scaled down Locost lookalike, maybe with a marine ply monocoque chassis?

With a real engine and gearbox, maybe rear engined transverse like the original Terrapin.

With inline donors ever less available this could be the way to go?

why would anybody want a lookalike of something like that?

Simone Giertz 's Truckla has way more style

[Edited on 5-12-2023 by gremlin1234]

I still remember her face when she saw the cybertruck revealed, in fact here it is

Description

If Tesla had simply used her idea there would have been millions of them on the road by now.

theconrodkid - 6/12/23 at 08:46 AM

it is different and being mainly straight line just as doable as a 7, oh and a lot more practical....whats stopping you ?.

BenB - 6/12/23 at 10:26 AM

Did anyone see the rematch between the baseball and the truck window? The only difference seemed to be the way the ball was thrown! I can throw a ball harder than that!!! No wonder it survived intact the second time.

gremlin1234 - 6/12/23 at 11:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Did anyone see the rematch between the baseball and the truck window? The only difference seemed to be the way the ball was thrown! I can throw a ball harder than that!!! No wonder it survived intact the second time.

there was a much bigger difference,
the original stunt used a steel ball,
now just a regular baseball

Mr Whippy - 6/12/23 at 11:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Did anyone see the rematch between the baseball and the truck window? The only difference seemed to be the way the ball was thrown! I can throw a ball harder than that!!! No wonder it survived intact the second time.

Personally I thought the whole thing totally idiotic and very dangerous for rescue in a crash, god help you if the car ended up in the water, you'd have zero chance of getting out and then both drown and then burn in a spectacular underwater lithium fueled Viking fire!

Ever see that video of the kid getting saved who got their head caught in an electric window and the guy saved them by punching the window out with his fist (bet that hurt!)? Tbh the more I learn about Tesla's the less I want anything to do with them. These day's I'd actually go for the new Prius.

MikeR - 6/12/23 at 03:13 PM

I'm curious how its got crumple zones built into it ....... bullet resistant, kick proof stainless steel panels don't sound like they're going to crumple in a crash. Being hit by an x ton sledgehammer doesn't appeal in the slightest.

If i'm right i suspect its not going to pass EU regulations unless its classified as something like a (guess) lorry.

Benzine - 6/12/23 at 07:47 PM

To anyone saying "why on earth would anyone buy one? It's hideous!" etc

See Nissan Juke.

Mr Whippy - 7/12/23 at 07:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
To anyone saying "why on earth would anyone buy one? It's hideous!" etc

See Nissan Juke.

First gen yes it was bad from the front especially due to the raised headlights, something it shares with my Leaf. I pass one in the morning and yeah it's got a face only a mother could love. However once you know that was done to funnel the wind around the wing mirrors (works well too) its not quite as daft as it first seems but it did nothing at all for the looks. Apparently it was all the Leaf's fault as during wind tunnel testing the car was so quiet due to the motor that the wind over the mirrors now seemed loud. Although the Leaf kind of got away with it due the pointy front and being electric, the Juke had no such excuse. The newer Jukes look ok but still have the appearance of an inflatable toy.

Like I said above I'd love a new Prius as the looks have been transformed, 40 miles electric, plug in, 196bhp and decent price too. I'd say that's a real threat to full EV's, I'd personally go for one over a second full EV and may do so once they're a few years old.

Description

MikeR - 7/12/23 at 07:53 AM

The Prius sounds like a practical main car for two car families who have long distances. Reality is by the time you can afford it, all electric cars are likely to be practical family cars. I'm struggling with the choice of what to get next, I'm torn between all electric, hybrid or dinosaur juice. I think electric doesn't quite cut it due to 240 miles journeys I do in a day occasionally. For a second car electric would be great - we just need to improve/extend the charging infrastructure.

coyoteboy - 7/12/23 at 09:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
It may be real but it's still a joke, as is musk himself. The guy has no class, no taste and no inherent engineering talent. He simply throws inherited money at people who do have talent and then takes credit for their achievements. Unfortunately he is allegedly also willing to take shortcuts which put people's lives at risk with dodgy self driving software.

The "cybertruck" is an eyesore and I predict it will be a massive flop for Tesla. Yes, some people will buy it and proclaim it as the most amazing vehicle ever but the rest of us will shake our heads as we drive past. Even existing Tesla owners are selling perfectly good cars to avoid any association with this narcissist. And many of those people realise that there are plenty of better alternatives in the EV market.

That's rather great leap to have made. Don't particularly like him, but he has some great positive aspects. Does he have engineering knowledge? I think he does, but maybe nothing special - but that's not the point, successful people surround themselves with people who know things they don't to make something happen. Inherited money - maybe initially, but not now. Regardless, we all play the hand we have to the best we can, you can't hold his start in life against him, you're not inherently a better person if you start off a working class Scot.

I've seen nothing of taking shortcuts, but it doesn't surprise me - one person's reasonable engineering decision is another's outrageous shortcut. What are you referring to?

I also think the cybertruck is an abominable vanity project but I believe they have enough orders to make it a success already. They have 2 million pre-order deposits of 1K dollars. Even if they make a handful and stop production, they made 2Bn from it (deposit not refundable).

Mr Whippy - 7/12/23 at 11:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
The Prius sounds like a practical main car for two car families who have long distances. Reality is by the time you can afford it, all electric cars are likely to be practical family cars. I'm struggling with the choice of what to get next, I'm torn between all electric, hybrid or dinosaur juice. I think electric doesn't quite cut it due to 240 miles journeys I do in a day occasionally. For a second car electric would be great - we just need to improve/extend the charging infrastructure.

One of the things you have to keep in mind with EV's is their range stated is not done at 70mph, more like 55mph which is not practical if your on the motorway, it will just hammer your range. Although in town they will go all day long on a single charge.

Also in the winter there is a huge drop in range and even charge speed. For example, in the summer our Leaf shows 130miles, and if I take it easy I can and have got close to that. But in the winter it's just scraping by doing a 49mile round trip to the girls gymnastic driving at just 55mph and shows only 14miles left by the end of it! Ok it's an old gen car but the battery is in very good condition. This is just what EV's are like in real life, just watch some YouTube real reviews by owners and you'll see this is the case.

Personally I think there is still a place for plug in hybrids even after 2030, so long as they have at least 40 miles pure electric range at 70mph. Plus they should be capable of a maximum rapid charging time of 20mins & slow charging at work.

Sanzomat - 7/12/23 at 03:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
The Prius sounds like a practical main car for two car families who have long distances. Reality is by the time you can afford it, all electric cars are likely to be practical family cars. I'm struggling with the choice of what to get next, I'm torn between all electric, hybrid or dinosaur juice. I think electric doesn't quite cut it due to 240 miles journeys I do in a day occasionally. For a second car electric would be great - we just need to improve/extend the charging infrastructure.

One of the things you have to keep in mind with EV's is their range stated is not done at 70mph, more like 55mph which is not practical if your on the motorway, it will just hammer your range. Although in town they will go all day long on a single charge.

Also in the winter there is a huge drop in range and even charge speed. For example, in the summer our Leaf shows 130miles, and if I take it easy I can and have got close to that. But in the winter it's just scraping by doing a 49mile round trip to the girls gymnastic driving at just 55mph and shows only 14miles left by the end of it! Ok it's an old gen car but the battery is in very good condition. This is just what EV's are like in real life, just watch some YouTube real reviews by owners and you'll see this is the case.

Personally I think there is still a place for plug in hybrids even after 2030, so long as they have at least 40 miles pure electric range at 70mph. Plus they should be capable of a maximum rapid charging time of 20mins & slow charging at work.

My twopenneth on plug-in hybrids - I had a Passat GTE estate as a company car, new in 2017. I changed jobs in mid 2018 so only had it for about 14 months but I loved it. Although I did several long runs on petrol and the EV range was only 31 miles (I consistently got 25+ miles range) and it could only slow charge, I still managed to do 60% of all my mileage (22,000 miles in 14 months) on electric. All of my miles within urban areas were electric too so good for clean air. IIRC the company car tax was a big saving over the full ICE options at the time which being honest was my main reason for choosing it. Now I'm buying my own cars I've not been able to justify the additional capital cost. Also needing to tow the trailer/locost to track days isn't ideal for EVs (the Passat did the job well though).
Based on my experience I would have thought most people could get 60% of their journeys electric on a 30 mile range PHEV and not need a separate car for long journeys and no range anxiety. Seems like a no-brainer to me for the future as long as the capital costs don't kill it

craig1410 - 7/12/23 at 09:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
It may be real but it's still a joke, as is musk himself. The guy has no class, no taste and no inherent engineering talent. He simply throws inherited money at people who do have talent and then takes credit for their achievements. Unfortunately he is allegedly also willing to take shortcuts which put people's lives at risk with dodgy self driving software.

The "cybertruck" is an eyesore and I predict it will be a massive flop for Tesla. Yes, some people will buy it and proclaim it as the most amazing vehicle ever but the rest of us will shake our heads as we drive past. Even existing Tesla owners are selling perfectly good cars to avoid any association with this narcissist. And many of those people realise that there are plenty of better alternatives in the EV market.

That's rather great leap to have made. Don't particularly like him, but he has some great positive aspects. Does he have engineering knowledge? I think he does, but maybe nothing special - but that's not the point, successful people surround themselves with people who know things they don't to make something happen. Inherited money - maybe initially, but not now. Regardless, we all play the hand we have to the best we can, you can't hold his start in life against him, you're not inherently a better person if you start off a working class Scot.

I've seen nothing of taking shortcuts, but it doesn't surprise me - one person's reasonable engineering decision is another's outrageous shortcut. What are you referring to?

I also think the cybertruck is an abominable vanity project but I believe they have enough orders to make it a success already. They have 2 million pre-order deposits of 1K dollars. Even if they make a handful and stop production, they made 2Bn from it (deposit not refundable).

I don't think it's a great leap at all but you're entitled to your opinion.

I started writing a fuller response to your comments but to be honest I just can't be bothered spending time on it. There is ample evidence of his antics if you want to search for them and if you prefer to believe he has "great positive aspects" then that's fine by me. Just ask all the Twitter employees who he sacked without notice and then refused to pay severance...

Also worth having a read of this article about the recent Tesla whistleblower: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67591311

Lastly, I never claimed to be "inherently a better person" because I didn't inherit millions from my Dad. In fact I have no issues whatsoever with people who inherit money, quite the opposite actually. I'm probably more of a lower middle class Scot with fiscally conservative and socially liberal tendencies if you want to pigeon hole me more accurately.

Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG) did a far better job of describing musk than I ever could: https://mastodon.world/@jeffowski/111529793781498925

MikeR - 7/12/23 at 11:31 PM

I remember this quote when people speak of Musk, which i may not quite quote perfectly but you'll get the idea....

I know nothing about building cars, so when Musk built a car i thought he must be a genius,
i know nothing about building rocket ships, so when Musk built a rocket i thought he must be a genius,
I know lots about writing software, so when Musk bought twitter I realised I'm never getting in one of his rockets or cars.

(nb i think the cars may have enough miles on them for me to consider getting in one of them)

Mr Whippy - 8/12/23 at 08:15 AM

Well, tbh I have zero against Musk personally, but as an observer I�m blown away with how much he�s accomplished so far, ok yeah it�s been through the help and work of a lot of people not just him but he�s managed to pull it all together and no one person could be an expert in so much anyway.

He did take on the whole automotive industry and won, hands down he won, forcing the current shift to EV�s. Like EV�s or not, only Tesla did that. GM had a good chance to do the same with the EV1, before buying them back just to cut up them up.

Then he took on the entire aerospace industry (oh is that all...) and won, again. Proving renewable rockets where a possibility making a hugely successful business' out of it. Where NASA, Russia and Europe had failed, miserably. Remember NASA trying with the half-baked deathtrap, the space shuttle and managed to brutally kill (aka negligent homicide) two entire crews.

It�s a given that some of his projects he supported have been a flop, but he�s not scared of giving things a bash even if they seem very unlikely to succeed and that�s fine, I don�t hold it against him. The Cybertruck, well I just don�t think it was the right car for the time, but if he sells enough then it�s simply a success, and good on him, we�ll have to see how it goes. Although a simple Model 3 pickup would probably have been a good option too.

He might make it to a successful Mars & moon mission, it�s going to be a hell of a slog but he�s on the right track and making good progress. I can only wish him all the success. So far everything I have see him do is for the greater good but if he starts developing a Death Star I may change my mind

[Edited on 8/12/23 by Mr Whippy]

coyoteboy - 8/12/23 at 10:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410

I don't think it's a great leap at all but you're entitled to your opinion.

I started writing a fuller response to your comments but to be honest I just can't be bothered spending time on it. There is ample evidence of his antics if you want to search for them and if you prefer to believe he has "great positive aspects" then that's fine by me. Just ask all the Twitter employees who he sacked without notice and then refused to pay severance...

Also worth having a read of this article about the recent Tesla whistleblower: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67591311

Lastly, I never claimed to be "inherently a better person" because I didn't inherit millions from my Dad. In fact I have no issues whatsoever with people who inherit money, quite the opposite actually. I'm probably more of a lower middle class Scot with fiscally conservative and socially liberal tendencies if you want to pigeon hole me more accurately.

Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG) did a far better job of describing musk than I ever could: https://mastodon.world/@jeffowski/111529793781498925

It's quite in vogue to be critical of him, and to be honest it's easy to pick flaws in people. I choose not to look for the negatives because it doesn't do much good. Wils comments are full of bile and opinion, not evidence of a real human. I suspect if anyone read any person's online content and saw only their worst business decisions and not the thousands of nice ones, one might draw the same conclusion of most in senior positions. As I said, I'm not a musk fan (and his tendencies have got worse I'll admit) but am also not willing to assume I know who he is based on what I see online.

Wasn't particularly pigeon-holing you, more assuming that's the sort of person you'd find more wholesome 😂

JoelP - 8/12/23 at 12:34 PM

You only have to read a few of his tweets to realise he's a total bell end. I'm far more impressed by space x than by tesla tbh. It was always obvious electric cars were the future, he just got in and did a good job of dominating the market. Space X achieved more by bringing market forces into a rather stuffy, uncompetitive industry. Doesn't change the fact he's a truly horrible person.

coyoteboy - 8/12/23 at 12:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
You only have to read a few of his tweets to realise he's a total bell end. I'm far more impressed by space x than by tesla tbh. It was always obvious electric cars were the future, he just got in and did a good job of dominating the market. Space X achieved more by bringing market forces into a rather stuffy, uncompetitive industry. Doesn't change the fact he's a truly horrible person.

Tweets are rarely a reflection of people's true self, and of course they're a promotional mechanism. The more people talk about that thing he said, the more his businesses are in the news.

Like I say, easier to pick flaws than observe the better aspects. But hey, I've been through a period of life where I judged everyone and criticised everything, it was a dark place, I choose not to go there anymore regardless of the apparent naivety.

Simon - 9/12/23 at 06:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Imo the cybertruck looks really dated, something of...
[Edited on 5/12/23 by Mr Whippy]

It reminds me of the Astron Martin Bulldog of the 1970's, so that's probably why

craig1410 - 9/12/23 at 11:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410

I don't think it's a great leap at all but you're entitled to your opinion.

I started writing a fuller response to your comments but to be honest I just can't be bothered spending time on it. There is ample evidence of his antics if you want to search for them and if you prefer to believe he has "great positive aspects" then that's fine by me. Just ask all the Twitter employees who he sacked without notice and then refused to pay severance...

Also worth having a read of this article about the recent Tesla whistleblower: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67591311

Lastly, I never claimed to be "inherently a better person" because I didn't inherit millions from my Dad. In fact I have no issues whatsoever with people who inherit money, quite the opposite actually. I'm probably more of a lower middle class Scot with fiscally conservative and socially liberal tendencies if you want to pigeon hole me more accurately.

Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG) did a far better job of describing musk than I ever could: https://mastodon.world/@jeffowski/111529793781498925

It's quite in vogue to be critical of him, and to be honest it's easy to pick flaws in people. I choose not to look for the negatives because it doesn't do much good. Wils comments are full of bile and opinion, not evidence of a real human. I suspect if anyone read any person's online content and saw only their worst business decisions and not the thousands of nice ones, one might draw the same conclusion of most in senior positions. As I said, I'm not a musk fan (and his tendencies have got worse I'll admit) but am also not willing to assume I know who he is based on what I see online.

Wasn't particularly pigeon-holing you, more assuming that's the sort of person you'd find more wholesome 😂

I don't subscribe to Vogue so couldn't care less what is or is not in vogue. I say it as I see it.

Wil is more of a "real human" than musk ever will be. He does speak his opinion but whether you call it "bile" is your opinion.

I don't care about human flaws. I'm a huge fan of Steve Jobs, Richard Branson, Alan Sugar and many others throughout history. These people have flaws, often major ones, but they also have charisma, focus, talent and taste. Musk has none of these things.

You say you are "not a musk fan" but if it quacks like a duck!

[Edited on 9/12/2023 by craig1410]

craig1410 - 9/12/23 at 11:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
You only have to read a few of his tweets to realise he's a total bell end. I'm far more impressed by space x than by tesla tbh. It was always obvious electric cars were the future, he just got in and did a good job of dominating the market. Space X achieved more by bringing market forces into a rather stuffy, uncompetitive industry. Doesn't change the fact he's a truly horrible person.

Agreed, on the bell-end bit, and also about Space-X. The staff at Space-X have done a fantastic job, and I would say that is "despite" musk rather than because of him. They were all doing great work long before he got involved. Thankfully, space is more heavily regulated than the roads so we don't have "self-driving rockets". Although ironically that would be a simpler problem to solve than self driving cars!

And yes, he is a truly horrible person. Kind of like the Donald Trump of the tech industry.

JoelP - 10/12/23 at 09:06 PM

As if to prove my point, he's back in the news today for having let Alex Jones back onto twitter. The guy who said the Sandy Hook massacre was staged, and all the bereaved parents were actors. Elon Musk has no moral compass at all. He can't see past the pretty American obsession with free speech.

craig1410 - 13/12/23 at 02:41 PM

More Tesla news - glad to see the "self driving" nonsense getting the scrutiny it needs finally.

Headline: Elon Musk's Tesla recalls two million cars over Autopilot defect
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

Slimy38 - 13/12/23 at 03:31 PM

Somewhat related to his cars, there is a scene in 'Leave the World Behind' (a current Netflix film) around Teslas, I won't spoil it as the film is quite entertaining but if you're not bothered about the film I suggest a quick Google. The scene itself is part entertaining, part laugh out loud funny, but also actually quite terrifying.

craig1410 - 13/12/23 at 11:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
Somewhat related to his cars, there is a scene in 'Leave the World Behind' (a current Netflix film) around Teslas, I won't spoil it as the film is quite entertaining but if you're not bothered about the film I suggest a quick Google. The scene itself is part entertaining, part laugh out loud funny, but also actually quite terrifying.

Watched the movie tonight - quite entertaining as you say, although I think the concept itself could have resulted in a REALLY great movie. Maybe one of the big studios will pick up the idea and run with it a bit more. The Tesla scene is pretty good - I'm going to guess that Tesla didn't endorse it but with musk you just never know! He sure has done more stupid things!

Thanks for the tip.

Mr Whippy - 14/12/23 at 08:57 AM

I'm more amazed that people are willing to spend - "In the US, the full-self driving package costs $12,000, or a $199 monthly subscription fee." just so they don't have to "drive" their nice fancy Tesla. Where's the fun in that? is driving them really so bad? It's not like you can go and have a sleep or watch a film, you still have to hold the wheel and look where your going, so what on earth is the point of something that is just glorified cruse control. Tbh it sounds just as daft as the BMW heated seat subscription BS.

craig1410 - 14/12/23 at 11:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I'm more amazed that people are willing to spend - "In the US, the full-self driving package costs $12,000, or a $199 monthly subscription fee." just so they don't have to "drive" their nice fancy Tesla. Where's the fun in that? is driving them really so bad? It's not like you can go and have a sleep or watch a film, you still have to hold the wheel and look where your going, so what on earth is the point of something that is just glorified cruse control. Tbh it sounds just as daft as the BMW heated seat subscription BS.

I think the recent recall is because the Tesla isn't actually strictly enforcing the requirement to hold the wheel and look ahead. And because it does a decent job of self driving, right up until it swerves off the road, or suddenly stops, or runs through an intersection, people get complacent and start relying on it. Imagine if 1 time out of every 100, your brake pedal didn't work...

It amazes me why anyone would want to drive a Tesla at all never mind pay $12000 to make it drive itself. The entire user interface is a complete disaster with the reliance on the touch screen for things that are WAY better as physical controls. That would drive me nuts! I can reach out and operate any control in my 2008 BMW 535d without taking my eyes off the road but that's not the case with a touchscreen which has no tactile feedback. Maybe that's why the self driving feature was invented - so that the car can drive while you search the touchscreen for the button to turn on the heated seats!

Mr Whippy - 14/12/23 at 03:06 PM

It's about time they pass a law that requires all display's and controls (hi-fi and heating too) to located directly in front of the driver at eye level. Voice control has progressed where most operations could be performed that way and not scrolling through some dumb computer monitor in the middle of the dash.

David Jenkins - 30/12/23 at 04:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy

One of the things you have to keep in mind with EV's is their range stated is not done at 70mph, more like 55mph which is not practical if your on the motorway, it will just hammer your range. Although in town they will go all day long on a single charge.

Also in the winter there is a huge drop in range and even charge speed. For example, in the summer our Leaf shows 130miles, and if I take it easy I can and have got close to that. But in the winter it's just scraping by doing a 49mile round trip to the girls gymnastic driving at just 55mph and shows only 14miles left by the end of it! Ok it's an old gen car but the battery is in very good condition. This is just what EV's are like in real life, just watch some YouTube real reviews by owners and you'll see this is the case.

I'm sorry mate, but that's bollocks. (but maybe not with a Leaf!)

I have a Kia Niro EV - summer range approaching 300 miles, winter range 260, more than enough for me. I have often done long journeys at legal motorway speeds and maybe have lost 10 or 20 miles on initial estimated range. The GOM (guess-o-meter) range is VERY accurate on the KIA, unlike my old Nissan Leaf that was a blatant liar. At 70 mph in the Leaf I could see my range vanishing rapidly every mile I drove. Even my wife's Renault Zoe does better, and that has similar initial range (and is of a similar generation).

A couple of years ago I drove from Suffolk to Skye, then to Dornoch (45 miles north of Inverness), on to Blairgowrie, and finally on to Lincoln and back home to Suffolk. Various expeditions while we there. About 1500 miles, IIRC, in 2 weeks. No issues, apart from the Scottish chargers that were very unreliable. Most of the long stages were either on motorways or fast A roads (like the A9). Range vanished rapidly as I went up Glencoe, but I recovered most of it going back down the other side!

Don't make your judgement based on the Leaf, as good as the early models were (Nissan made some monumental cock-ups when they introduced the Mk 2 version, which I had).

craig1410 - 30/12/23 at 05:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
One of the things you have to keep in mind with EV's is their range stated is not done at 70mph, more like 55mph which is not practical if your on the motorway, it will just hammer your range. Although in town they will go all day long on a single charge.

Also in the winter there is a huge drop in range and even charge speed. For example, in the summer our Leaf shows 130miles, and if I take it easy I can and have got close to that. But in the winter it's just scraping by doing a 49mile round trip to the girls gymnastic driving at just 55mph and shows only 14miles left by the end of it! Ok it's an old gen car but the battery is in very good condition. This is just what EV's are like in real life, just watch some YouTube real reviews by owners and you'll see this is the case.

Personally I think there is still a place for plug in hybrids even after 2030, so long as they have at least 40 miles pure electric range at 70mph. Plus they should be capable of a maximum rapid charging time of 20mins & slow charging at work.

I agree with David, this is certainly NOT our experience after almost 7 years and 80k miles in our BMW i3. Ours is the 94Ah model (they came in 60Ah, 94Ah and more recently 120Ah models) and we get something like 120-130 miles in summer and around 105-110 miles in winter. This is just barely less on what we got when new. I don't know much about the Leaf as I never liked the look or performance of them. I know many people don't like the i3 looks either, in fact I was one of them when it first came out, but it grew on me as I understood more about the manufacturing process and ethos behind it.

One thing that might make a difference is the fact we opted for the heat pump option when ordering our car. This is much more efficient at heating the cabin than a simple heating element type heater. My wife and I also tend to make use of our heated seats and keep the cabin at 17 or 18C rather than having the cabin at a higher temperature. I think the heat pump was something like a �500 option but I'm confident it will have paid for itself a few times over already due to reduced energy costs. We actually prefer to have a warm body with cooler air around our faces so this isn't a concession either.

The other thing that was unique to the i3 back when we bought ours was the pretty advanced thermal management system surrounding the batteries. I'm sure it's not as unique these days but basically it aims to keep the battery cells at an optimum temperature for both charging and discharging by circulating glycol liquid or gel around pipes inside the battery compartment. When you schedule the pre-conditioning feature of the car to have it ready to go at a particular time in the morning (6:30am usually for my wife's commute) then it actually preconditions the battery modules something like 3 hours in advance of that time so that it can top off the charge capacity those last few percent that you can't reach when the batteries are cold. Then closer to departure time it heats up the cabin and defrosts the glass.

So maybe it's this thermal management system that means we can charge at the same speed in summer and winter, and we don't notice as much drop off in range as Mr Whippy is describing. We very rarely charge the car outside of our home where we have a 7.4kW single phase charger, but I've not noticed any slow charging on the fast chargers either. It's typically 20 mins from say 5% to 80% after which the charge speed naturally tails off whether it's summer or winter for the last 20%.

As for the range at different road speeds, yes of course you get less range when travelling faster because there is more wind resistance and other frictional losses. You also get less MPG in a petrol/diesel powered car for the same reasons. Where the EV differs from the ICE powered car is that you get a much greater contrast between motorway driving and super-efficent city driving where the EV really excels.

An ICE powered car is generally most efficient at around 50MPH where it can run in top gear without labouring. But an EV is most efficient around the city provided the driving style is maximising regeneration and not doing drag races between all the lights! So the contrast between city and motorway is always much greater on an EV than an ICE car. In fact you might see similar ICE MPG doing 80MPH on the motorway as you do in a city in stop-start traffic but for different reasons.

So if you have previously been mostly driving in town and your range indicator is predicting future range based on past range, then it will be predicting a higher range. Then if you suddenly jump onto a motorway and drive 100 miles, then of course the car will have to change that future prediction dramatically. It's the same if you normally drive efficiently and then you jump in and drive like a maniac! But when you realise that this contrast is mostly because the EV is so efficient in town/city driving then it's actually a strength not a weakness.

David Jenkins - 30/12/23 at 08:22 PM

It's also worth noting that ICE cars are also less efficient in cold weather (but the difference is not so significant). Cold fluids in the engine, much longer warm-up times, denser air are just some of the factors. Covered in this article:

Linky 1

And, before anyone says it, the car most likely to catch fire in the UK is a diesel...

Linky 2

JoelP - 30/12/23 at 09:37 PM

Do you mean 120kwh or 120Ah David? Not being pedantic, just curious about the unit. Ah wouldn't be very informative without knowing the voltage.

craig1410 - 30/12/23 at 11:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Do you mean 120kwh or 120Ah David? Not being pedantic, just curious about the unit. Ah wouldn't be very informative without knowing the voltage.

Did you mean to direct this question at David or me? I certainly mentioned 120Ah but I don't see anywhere that David mentioned it. If you meant my reference then I did indeed mean to say 120Ah because that's how BMW specify the model. Our i3 is a 94Ah model and has a usable battery capacity of 27.2kWh. The 60Ah model had a capacity of 18.8kWh and I think the 120Ah model has a capacity of 37.9 kWh.

Taking the 94Ah model which I'm most familiar with, it is specified as a 33.2kWh nominal and 27.2kWh usable which means the usable capacity is 82% of the nominal capacity. To me this is a very conservative depth of discharge and might be why the BMW retains capacity much longer than the Nissan Leaf mentioned earlier. It might be that BMW hold back some of the capacity in the early years to allow it to be maintained for longer as it reaches the end of the 8 year warranty period.

David Jenkins - 31/12/23 at 10:08 AM

Trust BMW to be different! My KIA is 64kWh useable capacity - real capacity is slightly higher but the battery management doesn't allow me to use the bit at the top and won't allow me to fully discharge.

JoelP - 31/12/23 at 05:15 PM

My bad Craig, I did indeed mean you. Thanks for clarifying!

David Jenkins - 31/12/23 at 05:20 PM

Getting back to the topic - the Cybertruck really is a phenomenally ugly vehicle! It doesn't seem to have any merit as a truck, not much use as a car, probably bad in an accident and probably stupidly expensive to repair.

I think I'll pass for now...

Mr Whippy - 3/1/24 at 07:33 AM

Funnily enough I've given up on the electric cars and gone back to the old volvo as the range and charging was too much of a pain for what I wanted to do with it. Yeah I could buy another newer car with larger capacity but the Leaf only just broke even with fuel saving vs the finance cost and a new car would not.

However the wife is still hammering away at the leaf and loves it, she's put on 22,000 miles just last year alone and it hasn't put a foot wrong despite her knack for destroying cars but it's just driven locally now. I was cleaning it yesterday and it's remarkable how clean the engine bay and underside is, looks like new despite being 6 years old plan is once it's at about 150k miles (depending on the life of the battery) to do a battery swap for one with twice the capacity rather than replace the car.