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Author: Subject: Engine change> Kawasaki GTR1400> Westfield
Nick H

posted on 10/5/17 at 09:55 AM Reply With Quote
Engine change> Kawasaki GTR1400> Westfield

Ok, I know it's not a Locost, but I'm in need of some input advice on swapping engines.

Westfield('03) MegaBlade currently on the road with Blade 919('97) on carbs. Running nicely but somewhat lacking in the power dept.
It's intended that most use will be fast-road, perhaps an occasional track day, no competition use.

So I've brought a complete, running Cat C salvage Kawasaki GTR1400 ('09) and dropped the motor out.
Those that don't know, this is the same lump as the ZZr/Zx14 but with slightly lower compression, cast pistons and VVT, along with an overdriven 6th gear.
The shaft drive unit is removable, leaving the common splined output drive, so a standard adapter should work.

I'll be using a Megasquirt MS3X for management, intending to use full sequential ignition and injectors.
I'll probably also remove the secondary butterfly in the intake.

Oil, I'm hoping I'll get away with just a vertical baffle in the sump along with a slight overfill, or do I need a full billet sump and baffle?

Existing fuel tank plus a swirl pot in the engine bay for injection.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to modify and reuse the very nice 4-2-1 exhaust that is currently fitted.

Cooling, hopefully, the current radiator is sufficient.

Modify existing engine cradle, perhaps build new.

Propshaft, modified to fit if needed.

Have I missed anything?

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Stevie_P

posted on 10/5/17 at 10:17 AM Reply With Quote
Yes, you've missed what you're doing with your blade engine
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Nick H

posted on 10/5/17 at 10:21 AM Reply With Quote
The Blade engine is potentially available, carbed, billet and baffled ABP sump, but not quite yet!
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Stevie_P

posted on 10/5/17 at 10:24 AM Reply With Quote
OK. Let me know the details nearer the time as I may be interested.
Steve

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Nick H

posted on 10/5/17 at 10:30 AM Reply With Quote
Stevie, will do. It's some way off being done mind.
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sam919

posted on 10/5/17 at 11:28 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie_P
OK. Let me know the details nearer the time as I may be interested.
Steve


http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/34/viewthread.php?tid=206868

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sam919

posted on 10/5/17 at 11:30 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nick H
Ok, I know it's not a Locost, but I'm in need of some input advice on swapping engines.

Westfield('03) MegaBlade currently on the road with Blade 919('97) on carbs. Running nicely but somewhat lacking in the power dept.
It's intended that most use will be fast-road, perhaps an occasional track day, no competition use.

So I've brought a complete, running Cat C salvage Kawasaki GTR1400 ('09) and dropped the motor out.
Those that don't know, this is the same lump as the ZZr/Zx14 but with slightly lower compression, cast pistons and VVT, along with an overdriven 6th gear.
The shaft drive unit is removable, leaving the common splined output drive, so a standard adapter should work.

I'll be using a Megasquirt MS3X for management, intending to use full sequential ignition and injectors.
I'll probably also remove the secondary butterfly in the intake.

Oil, I'm hoping I'll get away with just a vertical baffle in the sump along with a slight overfill, or do I need a full billet sump and baffle?

Existing fuel tank plus a swirl pot in the engine bay for injection.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to modify and reuse the very nice 4-2-1 exhaust that is currently fitted.

Cooling, hopefully, the current radiator is sufficient.

Modify existing engine cradle, perhaps build new.

Propshaft, modified to fit if needed.

Have I missed anything?


Interesting info on the engine, thanks for sharing.

FYI - Bob Spencer and Joe his son run a locosaki with the ZX1400 in, i'm sure he cuts the existing sump down for ground clearence etc. Maybe worth a chat with him, they used to be involved with BG developments - 01527 873716. I'm sure also , as with other engines, the exhaust detail was imerptive to get the power from it, i.e. all primaries the same length.

[Edited on 10/5/17 by sam919]

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russbost

posted on 10/5/17 at 12:41 PM Reply With Quote
If it's anything like the ZZR1400 then it's a fantastic engine, I use it mounted transversely (same way as in the bike) in completely standard form in the Furore. I modify the exhaust & use our own airbox, but don't change anything else - never had an oil issue, but then you'll be using it the other way around, so worth checking

Why on earth would you get rid of the existing ignition/injection system, I'd be fairly surprised if you could do a great deal better than the standard system with a Power Commander & rolling road tune - why fix something that ain't broke? I use all the standard bike loom, ECU etc





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Nick H

posted on 10/5/17 at 01:08 PM Reply With Quote
Sam, thanks for that. I'll have a Google and see how they did it. I have seen a few sumps cut down, rather than using billet.

Russ, the engine is the same other than VVT, pistons(10.7 comp), smaller throttle bodies and O/d on 6th. Quite a bit more torques, and at little lower rpm- with the same rev limit.
Getting rid of the existing bike electrics because of potential Kipass issues mainly. I'm not trying to out-do Kawasaki!
I'm not intending to reuse the clocks, the bike loom would need modifying and a new engine management loom will also be neater.
Megasquirt is very feature-rich for what it is and has a few more comfort options, cruise, abs, lots of potential.
It can look after the engine and display via ShadowDash and tablet, or mobile phone.

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CosKev3

posted on 10/5/17 at 04:14 PM Reply With Quote
Engine height maybe something to look into, especially if you don't want a big hole in the bonnet for the airbox!
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russbost

posted on 10/5/17 at 06:09 PM Reply With Quote
With all the earlier engines I've fitted the only thing needed to bypass the immobiliser is a 100 ohm resistor. With the 2016 engine I'm currently fitting (see build diary) LINK, I've kept the key & barrel within the loom & extended the loom forward to start on the key & use the steering lock as normal, the Kawasaki key will just be an additional immobilisation for occasional use. My understanding is that if it has a red ring around the ignition lock where the key goes in then it has the immobiliser which you can only get around by flashing the ECU (& couldn't even do that with my ECU), but I've never come across that on pre'14 engines - I know nothing about Kipass, but if that's fitted surely all you need is the Kipass key carried with you?





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Nick H

posted on 13/5/17 at 12:03 PM Reply With Quote
Ok thanks, Russ. The barrel has a white and red ring, 50/50. I know even less about Kipass, so I think it's going to be easier for me to wire from scratch than reusing the bike stuff.

CosKev, the height of the engine has been considered, prior to purchase and based on other 7 types fitted with ZZr/Zx14 motor.
I can soon make a GRP bonnet with requisite lumps and bumps to make it fit.

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Ajoasika

posted on 30/5/17 at 11:44 AM Reply With Quote
GTR 1400 in BEC

Yes, I had considered at the GTR lump myself, mainly because of the gear ratios which are more condusive to a road car, compared to the
ZZR. The shaft drive was going to be resolved by having the engine mounted transversely on what was the driver's side,
and converting car to LHD (easy enough). Then the drive shaft would have hooked up with the diff in gthe normal way. However, your
post says you can use the ZZR adaptor and run a shaft straight from where the sprocket was. Much better than turning the drive
90 deg as they do on the GTR.

But the problem I have is the final drive ratio - calculated speeds at 9,000 rpm are 34/50/63/78/93/112 using tyres of 21.5" diameter
and a 2.6:1 final drive. The lowest you can get using a Sierra diff is 3.14, and if you use a Capri axle (!), you can get 3.09. But it seems like
if you want to use the bigger 1352cc engine which doesn't rev so high as other bike engines, you would need a numerically lower final drive.
Below 3.0 would be good, but who makes them?

Mark Hollands
Louth (near Cadwell Park)

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CosKev3

posted on 30/5/17 at 12:39 PM Reply With Quote
From what someone said on here recently BMW diff's offer much better ratios
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rj

posted on 30/5/17 at 12:43 PM Reply With Quote
Some BMW's have 2.81 diffs, just had a look and that ratio is fitted to the 123d and the e90 335d, both sadly lacking LSD's
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Nick H

posted on 30/5/17 at 05:17 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks Mark, I thought the GTR1400/C-14 was a really good option for a more road based car.
This was primarily due to VVT, and what I had assumed to be effective overdrive on 6th gear, as on the bike.
This appears to be in bike mode only, with the shaft drive gearing. Should have done the figures first.... not the end of the world though.

I'll confirm about the ZZR adapter and photograph the gearbox output shaft. Awaiting tools to arrive to remove the 26/7mm nut and remaining gubbins. The 90deg shaft casing and gearing come off the gearbox very easily, 6/7 bolts(drain the oil first).

I have a Freelander LSD at 3.21, so pretty much the best case.

Running some figures through the bike spreadsheet gives: 40/55/70/85/102/122 at Max RPM with current rubber.
Changing to 225-60-16/(I hear you screaming from here already...!!) gives 47/64/81/100/120/140, which is a little more usable. 225-60-15 perhaps as a compromise?
Currently running 205-60-13 tyres, but prepared (probably needing) to change to 225.

CosKev and RJ, I had come across the BMW diffs, but as you say lacking an LSD is a factor. Changing the rear is more surgery(I suspect) than I was wanting to do- at present. The 2.8 diff would be about perfect though otherwise.


Or...
(well beyond my own capabilities)

Keep the better, lower, closer gearing of the GTR 1st-4th and swap 5th and 6th from the ZZR? or conversely, put 1st-4th into the ZZR case? I haven't checked the manuals, but theses should be interchangeable. I believe that the cylinder heads are not directly swappable though.

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Nick H

posted on 30/5/17 at 07:31 PM Reply With Quote
Updated the Bike_ratioCalc.xls from the sticky here.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-e2XgR545eHOG1sajI1OVlqaVU

(This will not open properly for me in Googles' online viewer, so download first, then open on your machine.)

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Ajoasika

posted on 3/6/17 at 08:54 AM Reply With Quote
Final drives for BEC

Nick,
Yes Iíd forgotten the GTRs have VVT, which I donít think the ZZR do. But then if the Ninja engine parts would fit (or preferably the GTR gearbox innards could be made to fit the Ninja lump as you suggest, if the engines are different as you say), either way the result would be awesome; there is a Kawasaki engine Westfield (Locosaki?) that currently wipes the floor with the opposition at my local - Cadwell. Iím not sure how he achieves this with a Sierra diff and not overly large rear tyres Ė maybe it just REVS.

GTR gear ratios are similar to the first four ratios in the Rocket gearbox in my Lotus 7 S4, only with two extra gears!

You mention overdrive on the GTR, but http://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/products/sport_tourer/2016/1400gtr_grand_tourer_/specifications?Uid=0 shows 6th gear to be 1.074? (1.391 on the ZZR) And if you can gear up the final drive as we are talking about anyway, overdrive becomes irrelevant. Dou youknow yet if the gears on the GTR (that turn the drive 90 deg to shaft drive) 1:1?

So BMW have a very wide range of ratios, and from my research, there are 28 different part nos for front diffs with 11 different ratios from 2.47 up to 3.64:1! The cool part is that X-drive models use alloy-cased front diffs with the same matching range of ratios - Ebay 302172143981 is a typical 3.38 for example. 162418274730 is a 2.56. So something for everyone there. From bmwfans.info, inserting the correct part number shows that weights of these diffs vary from 12.2 to 19kg (not sure why they vary so much). For example part no 7591995 for a 2.81 gives 14kg.

Send me your email, and Iíll send you my calculations.

However the alloy cases appear to be different, and thus not interchangeable, so you'd have to darn sure of the ratio you need before picking up the scalpel. This rear surgery as you mention, would probably be prohibitive for most people, but if a small sub-frame could be made that allowed one of these to fit the existing Sierra diff mounts on a Westfield/Caterham, then you'd have it. (If anyone has a redundant Sierra rear beam (ebay 222513646726 for example), I could look into this)

Quaife LSDs appear to be available too (search for bmw front lsd in ebay), although I'd personally be inclined towards using a Wavetrac.

How much does your Freelander diff weigh? Can you send me a picture of it?

thanks
Mark
ajoasika@hotmail.com

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Nick H

posted on 3/6/17 at 09:26 PM Reply With Quote
Mark,
Could be a real result then, Rocket box with 2 extra gears!
I've read pretty much every post of the green(MNR?) 'NinjaBogey' with the ZZR/ZX14 lump- along with the trials and tribulations of sump mods...
Do you have a link for the particular LocoSaki you mention? I've only come across one thus named with a ZX9 lump.

The overdrive has to be taken care of by the shaft drive ratios and wheel size; there is a further reduction at the first bevel(90) set. See pics in the link I've sent, ratio unknown.

Excellent research on the BMW diffs, and some very potentially useful ratios. If chassis mods are kept at a minimum then there are definite possibiliites.
I could send a few pics of the Freelander diff but its very unclear and dark under the boot cover. Google will probably have better pictures.
I've no idea as to its weight, but strangely for it's intended purpose it doesn't actually look too heavy-duty.

After an intense(information overload wise, for a non-biker!!) phone call to Guru Bates,
he says in his experience with ZZR/ZX14 (never done a GTR) they suffer from oiling issues, surge, foaming and hang-up(?) so careful attention with the sump mods.
A simple overfill was not the answer.
He wasn't at all sure that the Zx14 billet sump and baffle would fit/work in the GTR engine. There's a pickup for the VVT oil in there somewhere to take account of.
That said, he gave some very helpful tips on how to design one!
I'm now thinking that composite could be a good answer for making the sump and baffle.
There are also two(at the least) different output shafts for the ZX, unknown for the GTR. Interchangeability of the gearsets unknown.

Gearing, one idea was getting hold of a Westfield' reverse box and changing the ratios... Possibilities there, but don't have one fitted at present.

On the wheel size increase? I was left in no doubt as to its foolishness!

Also mentioned that welding any Japanese metal was difficult due to porosities and impurities. (use TIG with Magnesium rods)
Now, there's a very helpful, knowledgeable, friendly fellow, whom I REALLY should have spoken to earlier in this quest- Thanks Andy!

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Locks

posted on 10/8/19 at 12:47 AM Reply With Quote
Hey Nick
My name is Paul, Iím currently in Perth Australia, I have stumbled across your thread, I also have started building a lotus 7 with a GTR1400 engine. Are you able to share any further information about your build, perhaps sending me some pictures etc of where your at. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks again

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Ajoasika

posted on 10/8/19 at 02:00 PM Reply With Quote
Lotus 7 + GTR 1400

Paul,
I'm interested in that you're doing this on a Lotus - tell me more.

I'm doing it differently, keeping the shaft drive. I have had to turn the diff upside down, plus convert the car to LHD(!), but the shaft drive solves the main problem with BEC - the gearbox output is too low (usually geared down between crank and clutch), meaning you have to use close to 3.0 diff ratio, which is fine on an IRS Westfield using a Sierra diff, but mine is a 1971 Lotus 60 (Seven S4), which has the Escort axle - lowest I can go is maybe 3.5; on the GTR, they geared the shaft back up to around engine speed in that bevel gear output box in order not to have to use 1-1/2:1 on the final drive. So I can use 3.9/4.4 etc.

If this sounds a better way forward for your Lotus, get in touch directly ajoasika@hotmail.com (UK), I'll send some ideas.

The interesting part's going to be the electrics - I'm using some of the electrics from the bike (the torso of a GTR I got from Australia) and the loom from a ZZR-1400. This is way simpler than the GTR, with its KIPASS, Key lock, ABS, electric screen, grip warmers, none of which the Ninja had. As far as I can tell, the Ninja loom can be adapted to the GTR ECU's - the rest is about the same. But some time away from that.

Engine has a wet sump now, replacing the GTR sump, and is flush with the undertray.

Mark Hollands

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CosKev3

posted on 10/8/19 at 06:55 PM Reply With Quote
You might get lucky,but the OP hasn't updated this thread in the last two years,so chances are it's no more
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Locks

posted on 12/8/19 at 11:46 AM Reply With Quote
Hey guys, my build will be made up from a Holden commodore donor car which has a 3.08 diff ratio, which as you say should be a close match for the final drive ratio. I had the motor arrive last week. So I will keep you updated with my progress
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