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Duratec 3.0 v6 vs 2.0
sleeper - 13/6/15 at 10:42 AM

Hi guys.

I have mentioned in other posts I am looking to do a duratec swap in my spitfire, the problem is the front corss member. I dont want to alter the bonnet and i would prefer not to move the chassis front cross member as it is a support for the front suspension turrets. Moving it forward the 5 inches i need would mean all sorts of other things i would need to sort.

To get to the point does anybody know the length of the Duratec 3.0 V6 compared with the 2.0, if i can save the 5 inch i wont need to move it and i get a little more power, i am assuming the v6 is not as tall as the 2.0 duratec. Also means i can look at the Jag S-type 221 Getrag box as a bolt on option.


Cheers for your help guys, some photos will be coming soon of the build.


40inches - 13/6/15 at 11:27 AM

Can't help with the 2 litre, but can provide measurements for the V6
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Ugg10 - 13/6/15 at 11:33 AM

Sounds like an interesting project, but.....

I hope you are doing something with the suspension, rear axle and brakes as putting 200hp plus though the spitfire chassis will be "interesting". The jag gearbox is pretty big as well and may need chassis mods to fit.

Just a couple of other alternatives -

The gt6 came with a 2.0l straight six, so how about the lexus is200 straight six that comes with a six speed box that is about the same size as the type 9. I know there are type 9 conversions about so that may work. Long thread on turbosport on the rx8 gearbox which is the same as the is200.

More in keeping with the vehicle may be the ford 1.6/1.7 sigma/zetec se engine, small light, revvy and with 150hp easily available coupld be a nice option, there is an extensive build of one of these on the Web somewhere.

Or just go for a supercharged 1.8 mx5, comes with a decent gearbox, lots of Eaton mini cooper s supercharger conversions out there, makes around 200hp and should be an easier fit.

Just my 2p worth.


sleeper - 13/6/15 at 11:55 AM

Thanks guys and yes please can you please provide the v6 sizes?

Had a couple of GT6s I even posted my 182bhp GT6 that had fuel injection that I built (not of the shelf)

here a video of when I did my first injection on my gt6 that was single throttle body 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVhtgVhTWlA

The triumph 6 is a heavy lump and at 182 had a thirsty habit and was not that reliable. (engine from the 50's)

The back end I have a bolt in subaru diff/cv conversion so I can go upto 300 bhp and know i don't need to worry about breaking.

the Is200 is a tall lump and this would mean modifiying the bonnet which i will not do.

I have measurements for a duratec 2.0 with an rx8 box which I could squeeze in under the bonnet with the raceline duratec r cam cover but the box is pretty long in a spit just like a type 9 is so i need to have the shortened gear select mod wither either the rx8 box or the type 9 where as the getrag jag box looks pretty short not got the length of that yet though (if anyone knows that would be handy?)

if i can fit the v6 between the bulkhead with a little trimming and the cross member with a short gearbox this could be the best option. my aim is for 200 bhp so both duratecs this is fairly easy the v6 already having a little more as standard.

the little zetec se/sigma engine is a great shout and I know of a couple of people that have done it however, as thats been done I want to go down the duratec route either 2.0 or 3.0 and yes I measured the 2.3 duratec and that is the worst option as the height is about 10mm to much and i would still have the cross member isssue.

the mx5 supercharged once again has been done.

hope that helps.
Thanks for any help guys

just a quick edit, yes brakes are also not a problem with off the shelf stuff. protec shocks with uprated springs, 4 pot big brake kit also getting rid of the lower trunnion and using the trunnionless caterham uprights thingies, not used them before but some good friends have and report great results. I have put aside 6k for the engine, box and efi bits swap anything i save goes towards the new paint job which it also really needs.

[Edited on 13/6/15 by sleeper]

[Edited on 13/6/15 by sleeper]


40inches - 13/6/15 at 12:41 PM

The S-type Getrag 221 is tiny compared to the Type 9.
50cm long, including the bell housing, the gearbox part is aprox 20cm square and the gear change
is remote and can be shortened.
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sleeper - 13/6/15 at 01:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
The S-type Getrag 221 is tiny compared to the Type 9.
50cm long, including the bell housing, the gearbox part is approx 20cm square and the gear change
is remote and can be shortened.
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That is great news thank you looks like this could be a winner, would yo be able to tell me the v6 dimensions? height not including the inlet just to the top of the cam covers from sump and length please.

Also as you seem to be planning on using the getrag jag box is there an option to ditch the dual mass flywheel?

[Edited on 13/6/15 by sleeper]


Ugg10 - 13/6/15 at 01:57 PM

If you are worried about bonnet clearance with the jag engine, there is a guy with a lotus esprit that has fitted the mondeo st200/220 inlet to it which is lower than the stock jag one (he started with a bike tb setup and then went mondeo, some useful pics on the Web). Needs a bit if work sorting out the dual plenum system but looked like it worked. I have a mate putting this engine in a scimitar potentially with triumph triple throttle bodies, if you want to splash the cash there is a jenvey kit for it as well, again a search will throw up a Westfield with this kit on it.

If this does not fit there is always the mazda klde with a clairetoo throttle body and mx5 gearbox kit. This is a small all alloy v6.

Sorty if I am teaching you to suck eggs but worth using a gear calcukator like the one on subarugears to check your diff ratio.

http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/components/duratec_v6/ - Engine info and dimension here

[Edited on 13/6/15 by Ugg10]


sleeper - 13/6/15 at 02:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
If you are worried about bonnet clearance with the jag engine, there is a guy with a lotus esprit that has fitted the mondeo st200/220 inlet to it which is lower than the stock jag one (he started with a bike tb setup and then went mondeo, some useful pics on the Web). Needs a bit if work sorting out the dual plenum system but looked like it worked. I have a mate putting this engine in a scimitar potentially with triumph triple throttle bodies, if you want to splash the cash there is a jenvey kit for it as well, again a search will throw up a Westfield with this kit on it.

If this does not fit there is always the mazda klde with a clairetoo throttle body and mx5 gearbox kit. This is a small all alloy v6.

Sorty if I am teaching you to suck eggs but worth using a gear calcukator like the one on subarugears to check your diff ratio.

http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/components/duratec_v6/ - Engine info and dimension here

[Edited on 13/6/15 by Ugg10]


No need to apologies always appreciate info

the v6 seems really long did not think it would be that long, i expected slightly shorter probably an inch or so more than the 2.0 duratec not loads longer.

Duratec 2.0


Duratec 3.0 v6


If thats to scale i wonder how much of that stuff can be removed?

Shocked by the length compared. Need to do some more research/buy one plonk it in space and see what i would need to move/trim to fit...

Does anyone know the dimension of the block length? so without all the water pup stuff on the back? I would junk that and use an electric water pump if it meant it would fit.

[Edited on 13/6/15 by sleeper]


40inches - 13/6/15 at 03:53 PM

V6 from bell housing to front of water pump 580mm, or if you fit an electric pump, 495mm to front of crank pulley.
Will get some more dimensions later.


sleeper - 13/6/15 at 06:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
V6 from bell housing to front of water pump 580mm, or if you fit an electric pump, 495mm to front of crank pulley.
Will get some more dimensions later.


That sounds like good news I wait for the rest with excitement


sleeper - 16/6/15 at 08:18 PM

The only thing I do not like about using the 3.0 S-type Duratec V6 and getrag box is the dual mass fly wheel so sent out an email to rwdmotorsport to ask about flywheel non dual mass options.

got the following reply:
We can supply a standard clutch lightweight flywheel for £313 plus £12
carriage plus VAT. Alternatively we can supply a 215mm race clutch version
for £341 plus £12 carriage plus VAT.

To me thats a good deal so I bought a donor S-type. sent some plans off to a friend for the intake.
Picking up to car in 2 weeks as the owner has just gone away. now is to hoping it fits.

cheers


Ugg10 - 16/6/15 at 08:50 PM

Got a feeling if you search there are details of a mondeo flywheel swap giving a solid one.

Edit

Found this, looks like it is not an easy or possible swap.
http://www.jaguarforum.com/showthread.php?t=72451

This is my mate with the scimitar.

[Edited on 16/6/15 by Ugg10]


40inches - 16/6/15 at 11:05 PM

There are problems fitting a solid flywheel, I gave up and fitted a DMF in the end.
A guy over at RHOCAR persevered, but a lot of faf for very little return http://www.rhocar.org/index.php?showtopic=31973


Pojo - 17/6/15 at 07:25 AM

Sleeper

Same as 40 inches, fitted a DMF as there appeared to be no other easy proven option. Be interested to see if the RWD motorsport kit works. Good luck with what ever option you take, but the V6 is a good looking engine when all the rubbish is taken off. My crank pulley will only drive the alternator as using an EWP so very easy instal if the engine bay is big enough.


sleeper - 17/6/15 at 08:20 AM

I asked them about the clutch options and starter options and they replied

reply:
Yes the standard flywheel is made to fit the standard Jaguar cover. It
also has the ring gear machined in to accept the standard Jaguar starter
motor.

The delivery time is around 1 week to 10 days.


Pojo - 17/6/15 at 08:24 AM

Interesting, where in the country are you Sleeper, wouldn@t mind a look at the flywheel prior to you fitting if nearby (ish) or i can combine it on my travels. That is assuming that you wont mind of course.

cheers


sleeper - 17/6/15 at 08:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Pojo
Interesting, where in the country are you Sleeper, wouldn@t mind a look at the flywheel prior to you fitting if nearby (ish) or i can combine it on my travels. That is assuming that you wont mind of course.

cheers


Not ordered yet, going to wait until end of summer before I order. But I am over in Lancaster but when I order I will be in scunthorpe.
I will post plenty of pictures with sizes and what not when i do get it, of course you are also welcome to come and view

[Edited on 17/6/15 by sleeper]


andygtt - 4/8/15 at 01:59 PM

Bear in mind the Noble uses the same engine and has a solid flywheel without an issues... Ive had 4 different solid flywheels on mine and currently run a 7 1/4 inch triple plate item which weighs bugger all and a 3kg flywheel, had to raise the idle on mine to cope but a stock noble idles at 750rpm.

In the hundreds of nobles that I know are on the road, the fact Ive had my car 7 years and have steadily modified the 3L V6 to well over 700bhp in my car (and know loads of owners running over 500bhp) I have not heard of any issues with the crank at all. Its incredibly strong and identical in the 3.0L jag and ST220.

In fact a lot of us even replaced the heavy flywheel damper with a lightweight alloy one, Ive run mine for 4 years now.

Only issue is the noble clutch is an AP item and as such is expensive.



Incidentally you have made an excellent choice of engine, the Jag heads are superior to the ST220 ones, I rev my ST220 heads to 8100rpm and would go to 9000rpm if I ran the Jag ones... I even went as far as buying a Jag engine to convert until logic kicked in lol

[Edited on 4/8/15 by andygtt]


Pojo - 4/8/15 at 02:33 PM

Andy

Thanks for the info.

500 bhp sounds kind of mad let alone 700bhp. Once mine is on the road with the standard AJ30 on Jenveys, i will then think of a mild upgrade during the first winter. Is there someone you would recommend to talk to when it comes to that stage? Is your 700 bhp using a twin turbo set up?


andygtt - 6/8/15 at 03:24 PM

I developed my own single turbo setup... Nobles come with twin turbos as std and I did modify my twins to 600bhp but I just didn't like it and thus decided to go my own way.

You won't get huge power from the engine in NA form, I have seen people take the ST220 to 300bhp NA with plenty of work.
Converting to turbos will be expensive... you need shorter rods and oil squirters for the underside of the pistons, then the turbos and then an ecu whig will be the largest cost.
Cams, heads, pistons, crank etc can be all stock ford or Jag to get 500bhp... after that you need pistons and some flowed heads. Not huge money for the power involved, but hardly pocket change either.

Of cause if you have the room you can buy noble headers cheap, get some noble turbos cheap and some second hand noble rods cheap... plenty of people like me have upgraded and have the old stuff on the shelf.... it will be finding them lol.

I know less about the Jag NA, but I know the Jag can go beyond 300bhp NA, it has a superior cam design that allows more revs.... I know I rev my ST220 heads to 8000rpm, but I have forced induction so can play around with the power band using the boost... Ive actually heavily capped my boost lower down to stop it making too much torque and destroying the gearbox, I still run over 600ftlb tho.
Its an awesome engine but most of its potential is in forced induction.... at least you know you won't break the crank fitting a lightweight flywheel and clutch


Badger_McLetcher - 3/10/15 at 11:19 AM

A little bit of a thread revival, but since this strayed into the territory of finding a flywheel it seems relevant.

I contacted RWD Motorsport about getting a lightweight flywheel for the AJ30, but unfortunately they cannot supply one. The closest they get is for the 3.0 Duratec, but unfortunately the pitch of the ring gear appears to be different so it's a no-go.


40inches - 3/10/15 at 12:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
A little bit of a thread revival, but since this strayed into the territory of finding a flywheel it seems relevant.

I contacted RWD Motorsport about getting a lightweight flywheel for the AJ30, but unfortunately they cannot supply one. The closest they get is for the 3.0 Duratec, but unfortunately the pitch of the ring gear appears to be different so it's a no-go.


Could you provide them with the DMF ring gear, for them to fit to the sold flywheel?


muttley8 - 3/10/15 at 12:51 PM

Morgan used the 3.0 jag engine in their Roadster. Company called MULFAB do competition bits for Morgans including flywheels, might be worth a look.


Badger_McLetcher - 5/10/15 at 07:27 PM

40Inches; hadn't considered that, it's worth an ask!

Muttley; thanks for the lead, will have a butchers.

Another avenue I may pursue is getting an automatic flex plate then designing up a "Clutch holder" that would bolt onto the crank, sandwiching the flex plate. That's beyond my machining capabilities though, so it's a case of trying to design it and outsource it.


Badger_McLetcher - 5/10/15 at 07:28 PM

Minor update: Mulfab do sell one, but it's quite expensive at just shy of £600 and also a bit chunky at 9kg.

Here's the url:

http://www.mulfab.co.uk/our-products/7/other-miscellaneous


40inches - 5/10/15 at 07:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Minor update: Mulfab do sell one, but it's quite expensive at just shy of £600 and also a bit chunky at 9kg.

Here's the url:

http://www.mulfab.co.uk/our-products/7/other-miscellaneous


To be fair, that also includes an uprated clutch kit. I was lucky and found a supplier of re manufactured clutch kits for £130
and a new/old stock DMF for £150.
The cheapest DMF/Clutch kit from Luk was around £500.


Badger_McLetcher - 7/10/15 at 08:26 PM

I hadn't realised that was included a clutch, so not as bad as I first thought!
I've actually gotten in touch with TTV Racing, they do a lightweight flywheel (about 6kg) that will match up with the original clutch for £350 delivered, which sounds bang on to be fair! Probably going to go with them.

[Edited on 7/10/15 by Badger_McLetcher]


Badger_McLetcher - 19/10/15 at 08:36 PM

Quick update: the TTV flywheel appears to be spot on, weighed it before it went in and it's literally half the weight of the old one (spot on 6kg). And sooooo shiny! On the down side it did almost cost me more than my throttle body set up and tubular manifold combined... really hope it's worth it!


magpies - 26/8/18 at 10:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Quick update: the TTV flywheel appears to be spot on, weighed it before it went in and it's literally half the weight of the old one (spot on 6kg). And sooooo shiny! On the down side it did almost cost me more than my throttle body set up and tubular manifold combined... really hope it's worth it!


Thread resurection

Any update on the solid flywheel/clutch issue?

Also has any-one ditched the large intake plenum and fab'ed one.

I'm fitting an AJ30 into my TVR S


Badger_McLetcher - 27/8/18 at 05:25 PM

Heyup, in the end I used the stock clutch with the TTV flywheel; no issues as yet but not properly used in anger either!

As for the inlet, I've fabbed up ITB inlets using GSXR bodies, which seems to work ok. Had two ally plates water cut for the flange and then welded or alu brazed some shaped tubing onto them. Doing a single TB with plenum nestled between the banks should work fine, and avoid the height issues I've been plagued with!


andygtt - 29/8/18 at 07:16 AM

Iíve run a solid flywheel for 10years now and know of hundreds of others who do the same without any known issues ever over many hundreds of thousands of miles... the crank can take 700bhp and 8500rpm reliably, in NA form you will only break it if itís out of balance.

I fabricated my own ITBs and carbon plenum although height is an issue as they are tall (I have loads of room above the engine).... if you want Rocketeer will sell you a nice carbon plenum that will fit under a low hood, not cheap but proven.


sdh2903 - 29/8/18 at 02:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Heyup, in the end I used the stock clutch with the TTV flywheel; no issues as yet but not properly used in anger either!

As for the inlet, I've fabbed up ITB inlets using GSXR bodies, which seems to work ok. Had two ally plates water cut for the flange and then welded or alu brazed some shaped tubing onto them. Doing a single TB with plenum nestled between the banks should work fine, and avoid the height issues I've been plagued with!


Any pics of what you've done badger? I'm currently going through the options of what to do with mine


magpies - 30/8/18 at 08:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Had two ally plates water cut for the flange and then welded or alu brazed some shaped tubing onto them. Doing a single TB with plenum nestled between the banks should work fine, and avoid the height issues I've been plagued with!





definitely interested in this


Badger_McLetcher - 30/8/18 at 09:10 PM





Here's the best I've got at the moment - as you can see I had to make some rather large bonnet bulges to accept the airboxes (and yes I'll cut out the sides to allow cool air to flow in!).

The second picture is mid-tweak, as I wanted to brace the bodies, find a more progressive throttle cam and generally tidy up some stuff I wasn't happy with, so it isn't the full system.

[Edited on 30/8/18 by Badger_McLetcher]

[Edited on 30/8/18 by Badger_McLetcher]


magpies - 2/9/18 at 05:42 PM

Is there a drop off in power if the ST220 plenum is used on the Jag 3.0 motor using a 65mm TB?


magpies - 2/9/18 at 05:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Doing a single TB with plenum nestled between the banks should work fine, and avoid the height issues I've been plagued with!


will you have enough length on the inlet runners?

Do you have any photos of the build up of this set up or drawing/sketch?


Badger_McLetcher - 2/9/18 at 07:51 PM

No real pictures at the moment - I've been through several iterations of it tbh. Hopefully next weekend I'll be rebuilding it, so will take some pictures then.

Regarding runner length, that really depends on what you're after. I've gone for a shorter runner length knowing that I'll sacrifice some torque, but also that I really don't need it as I'm pretty sure I'll be able to light up the rear tyres on demand!


Badger_McLetcher - 2/9/18 at 07:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by magpies
Is there a drop off in power if the ST220 plenum is used on the Jag 3.0 motor using a 65mm TB?


Not sure - there's only one way of telling!


CosKev3 - 3/9/18 at 05:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Heyup, in the end I used the stock clutch with the TTV flywheel; no issues as yet but not properly used in anger either!




Presume your using the Jag gearbox?


magpies - 3/9/18 at 12:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Heyup, in the end I used the stock clutch with the TTV flywheel; no issues as yet but not properly used in anger either!




Presume your using the Jag gearbox?


Yes. I'm changing the diff ratio to suit the direct top