Ratman
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 11:28 AM |
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Bike engine, FWD, single rear wheel...?
I like the concept of a bike engine driving the two front wheels of a 3wheel set up. Maybe a narrow canoe style body with passenger sitting behind the
driver. There are hill-climb machines built like this... but does anyone know of a road-going model. We live in perilous times. This could be the
answer for achieving fuel economy AND a sporty ride. Brian
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smart51
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 11:41 AM |
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early morgans had a front Vtwin bike engined FWD 3 wheel layout. ISTR that the BRA CX3 was a kit based on the same formula.
The Lomax 332 and blackkjack avion had the same layout, but with a 2CV engine. Have a look at the new Blackjack Zero. same, but uses a VW beetle
engine.
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whitestu
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 11:47 AM |
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Alfasud / 33 flat four layout would be ideally suited to this.
The later 33 motors have quad cams and 16 valves, and produce good power.
Stu
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locoboy
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 12:12 PM |
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Hudson kindred spirit
My mate now owns all the jigs and rights etc etc.
Have a look here, possibly the worlds worst website but it gives you an idea.
I know he a had a mega fire at his workshop and the V max spirit was destroyed.
he does own another one which has aIIRC a renault 5 gordini engine in it running nitrous too!
Let me know if you want his number.
ATB
Locoboy
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lightspear27
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 12:28 PM |
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http://www.blackjackzero.com/mainindex.htm
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tri
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 12:42 PM |
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sorry to hi jack but what kind of liecence is needed to drive one of these bike or car always wondered and have a nice design in head but want to know
if its worth trying to make it?
Cheers
Tri
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akumabito
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| posted on 15/12/06 at 04:29 PM |
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The Blackjack Zero would be pretty sexy with a BMW motorcycle engine 
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Ratman
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 10:40 PM |
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Hmm. Thanks for the interesting replies... but none of them actually lead to what I was looking for ".. bike engine driving the two front
wheels of a 3wheel set up. .."
Anyone know of such an animal existing in roadgoing form?
Brian
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force10
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| posted on 1/1/07 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
sorry to hi jack but what kind of liecence is needed to drive one of these bike or car always wondered and have a nice design in head but want to know
if its worth trying to make it?
My understanding is that you can drive them on a bike license as long as it doesn't have a reverse gear, i think?
A friend of mine has a Grinnal Scorpion with a BMW 1200cc bike engine and he only has a bike license.
FT
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akumabito
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| posted on 2/1/07 at 12:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ratman
Hmm. Thanks for the interesting replies... but none of them actually lead to what I was looking for ".. bike engine driving the two front
wheels of a 3wheel set up. .."
Anyone know of such an animal existing in roadgoing form?
Brian
Well, I guess you could build one yourself. Perhaps you could rip the design from this beastie: http://www.naulapaa.com/degree04.html
How 'bout a 4 cylinder motorcycle engine powering a hydraulic pump driving 3 separate hydraulic motors connected to the three wheels? 3WD should
be pretty sexy. 
Here, have an article on a Yamaha 2WD bike with hydraulic motors: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2351/
Otherwise you could make it FWD, don't know if you can mount a diff close enough to the engine so it won't stick out in front of the
wheels too much..
[Edited on 2/1/07 by akumabito]
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ZEN
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| posted on 2/1/07 at 02:28 PM |
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Here is a site with plenty of info http://www.3wheelers.com
[Edited on 2/1/07 by ZEN]
My YouTube channel Cars, bikes - track days, motorsport, sim racing and more.
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Ratman
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| posted on 3/1/07 at 09:29 PM |
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Thanks Akumabito
You have spotted my dilemma (weight out front)
My throught is to have a regular mc engine/trans out front with chain driven FWD diff as close as possible behind this. But it does put the engine a
long way out front with the inherent risk that the car will stand on it's nose under braking. To counter this I was thinking of making the body
quite long and thin, with a passenger seat behind the driver and fuel, battery etc rearmost. If the car is low, I can get a safety factor of 2 against
tipping up with a coef of friction of 1. This is a very basic built concept.. not trying to mimic anything or pander to style. If any style is
involved I was thinking of WW1 aeroplane detailing.
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Ratman
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| posted on 3/1/07 at 09:37 PM |
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Thanks Zen
I had already found that site (
http://www.3wheelers.com ) and spent some time searching it. Fascinating, but there is just too much stuff there. Do you know of any FWD bike engine
examples there?
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akumabito
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| posted on 5/1/07 at 07:00 PM |
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Here's a question: why do yo want a FWD BEC again? Or let me split that quesiton up into two parts:
1.) Why a FWD car? If you want a sporty vehicle, it seems to me that RWD would be more suitable for your needs? Especially if you're hell-bend
on using a bike engine, it would make much more sense to go for RWD.
2.) Why a bike engine? You mentioned fuel efficiency in the opening post. If this is important to you, then surely a car engine would be more
suitable. Also: you do not need 180Hp to have a sporty ride in a vehicle that only weighs a couple hundred kilos.
But here's an idea that'll nicely combine CEC and BEC aspects:
Remember how the old VW beetles have the engine in the rear, behind the rear axle? Well, if you'd use such a VW transmission, you could position
the engine in the front, right behind the front axle. Using such a transmission will leave you with two possible problems: the first is
steering, I don't know how you would get the linkage to work around the transmission, and the second would be shifting. Depending on the body
style this nees not be a problem: if it's car-like you can use a car-like shifting pattern, bt if it's more of a bike than a car, you will
not have sequential shigting, and changing gears may be cumbersome. Luckily, these VW transaxles also have an automatic version that may solve
that..
Now then, starting from this transaxle, let's talk engines: the stock beetle engines are not very powerful, and not tremendously economic
either. For a sportier ride, as well as better fuel economy, you'd need something else: if you want to go BEC-but-not-over-the-top, and stick
with the VW transmission, I'd recommend the BMW motorcycle engines. BMW has air-cooled, 2 cylinder bike engines that produce around 100Hp, are
lightweight and provide very reasonable fuel efficiency.
The VW transmission and the BMW engine sound like a good match to me. I'm pretty sure it has been done before, too, you can probably find
adapter plates over at Kennedy Engineering. Although I'm not sure the automatic transmission would be too happy with 100Hp (the manual
transmissions can take it, especially considering it's a light vehicle)
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ZEN
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 11:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ratman
Thanks Zen
Do you know of any FWD bike engine examples there?
Only the one already mentioned in this thread.
My YouTube channel Cars, bikes - track days, motorsport, sim racing and more.
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Ratman
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| posted on 7/1/07 at 08:21 AM |
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Akumabito.. Thanks for your posting
1) Why a FWD car? I like this formula for a three-wheeler. To get good stability you need to have plenty of weight on the two front wheels, so
you might as well have them doing the driving as well. When the single rear wheel is doing the driving there is going to be a lot of wheel spin.
2.) Why a bike engine? I was thinking of no more than 600cc and as you say, a very light car. What I like about the bike engine is that it is
powerful for it’s weight. It also comes with a 6 speed close ratio sequential gearbox. The std car gearbox is used in a very light weight car has only
about 3 of the 5 gears in it that are useful, so it’s a bit like driving with an old pre-war three speed gearbox. Please don’t start talking Quaife
boxes etc to me unless the word “Locost” has suddenly disappeared from the URL at the top of the screen.
The current car I’ve built has a VW engine in it, upped to 2165cc, mid mounted and RWD. So I’ve done that, and I’m interested in something quite
different. I had a ride recently in a friends FWD car at a track day and I was really impressed at how early in the corner you can put the power on
with a FWD car and how stable and spin-out free the FWD car is.
Zen.
I think I’ve followed up all the links above. I didn’t find any that were specifically bike engine FWD. Which are you referring to please?
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akumabito
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| posted on 7/1/07 at 04:55 PM |
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What if you use a diff that turns the "wrong" way? That way you could drive the front wheels while the engine would be right behind them,
instad of having a large front overhang.. perhapsthe rear diff of a Honda S2000, or the front diff of a 4WD (freelander)?
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Ratman
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| posted on 8/1/07 at 06:48 AM |
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I just checked the front diff on my Suzuki, and it turns the same way, relatively, as a normal rear diff. Also.. I think the S2000 is the first Honda
4cly engine that turns in the "normal" direction. But this need not be a problem, your idea is a good one. The Suzuki diff would work well
as it is quite small and comes with independent suspension and disk brakes. Ratio is a bit low though.
Another idea I had was to place a typical motorcycle engine in normal (for a bike) orientation behind the front axle and drive forward to the diff
with a chain alongside the engine. The output sprocket would need to be extended out from the geabox and an additional bearing used to support it.
Still not too complex.
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akumabito
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| posted on 8/1/07 at 07:49 PM |
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If you want to do thzt, it may be easier to look at a 2 cilinder engine instead of a 4 cilinder. A narrower 2 cilinder engine would nearl have the
same width as a diff+chain drive..
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Ratman
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| posted on 8/1/07 at 08:10 PM |
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Yes... I was thinking along those lines. Or possible a v4 like a Honda VRF. Actually, I was also wondering about making everything as minimalist as
possible. 3 wheels. one seat. open frame body.... and single cylinder engine. there are off road singles up to 650cc but friends who ride these bikes
warn me off this as they are very unpleasant engines to be close to and recommend using a touring bike engine if possible so this does suggest a big
twin.
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akumabito
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| posted on 8/1/07 at 10:12 PM |
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Well, not necessarily, there are lots of Japanese light-tourers / 'choppers' which use 400 to 600CC single-cylinder engines. They're
very simple and reliable engines usually.. What sort of power are you looking for? I can ask some biker friends for engine advice, too
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Ratman
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| posted on 9/1/07 at 11:46 PM |
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I do keep changing my mind on power. I originally liked the idea of 100hp... but I've gone off that now in favour of simplicity and lightness of
weight. I'm thinking now more like 40hp - 60hp, but a tough motor that can be held at full power continuously. Friends tell me that you
can't expect to do that with a off road bike motor as they will overheat. Then again, I wonder if this might be addressed with more radiator. I
like to check out likely motors that I come accross on this site http://www.bikez.com/brands/index.php
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akumabito
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| posted on 10/1/07 at 11:25 AM |
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Most motocross engines are air cooled. You'd probably be better off with a water cooled engine.
Here's some 1990's Honda 2-cylinder bikes that shouldn't be too expensive..
Honda CB450 has 44 Hp
Honda NT650 has 58 Hp
Honda VFR 750 F has 100 Hp (V4 engine)
Honda VT 600 C has 41 Hp
Honda VT 1100 C has 67 Hp
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Ratman
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| posted on 11/1/07 at 08:32 AM |
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Thanks. I'll keep that list handy when I'm checking the local version of ebay listings.
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akumabito
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| posted on 11/1/07 at 11:13 PM |
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Well, there are probably a lot more suitable donors. It's probably advisable to stick with Honda engines though. The 2-cylinder engines are
pretty much bulletproof. I know some people from the Dutch ratbike club that drive late 70's Hondas with well over 150,000km on the clock.
Just checked the NZ ebay listings. There's a good number of 2-cylinder bikes out for reasonable prices. Also a surprisingly large number of old
Goldwings. I wish they were that cheap over here!
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