Surprised there's not been a thread given we're not far away from the referendum.
Your thoughts... ???
As I live in england I dont get a vote.
However I would be intrested to see an open and honest debate on the subject. So far I have only seen retoric from both camps
[Edited on 5/7/14 by ceebmoj]
I truly believe both sides will be disadvantaged more than any advantage
Nothing has been said regarding Scotland's defence, currency, health service, tax, pension provision and so on.
I did hear that under international law all nuclear waste is kept in the country of origin
You can't be in the European union unless you meet certain criterior so no Euro and no Pound
I personally love the Union perhaps you in Scotland have heard more about these things but I have heard none and may be much less informed than the
Scots
From my limited reading of the subject I can see why Scotland would want to be independent. In an idealistic world this would be fine but down here in
the real world it just makes no sense at all to me....
I am not English, I am British and proud of the fact that the diverse culture of England, Wales and Scotland can exist in one union.
To me it just looks like people want change for changes sake with little regard for the consequences?!
[Edited on 5/7/14 by tegwin]
As far as I can see the rich in Scotland will get richer, the less well off will not see any benefit, probably worse as jobs migrate.
The decision will be biased because people say that Scotland cannot leave the UK so the Scots will vote out because of this. Add currency issues, oil
being pumped below the boarder and industry migrating to England so become proud but lonely.
Cannot see the advantage myself, it's not as if Scotland does not already have control of a lot of stuff that directly affects the country.
its a once in a life time opportunity, if they dont go for it then they will never get another chance
but i cant see how they would benefit at all
all i can see is a bunch of scottish people who have this hatred of everyone else. I work offshore and 90% of the people here are scottish, and they
all have the same view of english people, you would think they were all on braveheart the way they carry on.
Having asked plenty of guys out here what they are voting for, they all say independance. So I ask them why, all i get is a long pause and then
'so the english cannae tell us what tae dae'. Other than they, they dont have a clue why theyre voting!!
from what I have said, it might seem I have a dislike for scottish people. But I dont, Its just a complete dislike of they way they see the rest of
the uk.
one comment went along the lines of 'shes not my f***ing queen and she never will be the stupid bitch'.... says it all really doesnt it?!
I think english people should be able to vote too. I'm pretty sure there would be no debate in the matter then.
Any chance of Cumbria going with them at least an Edinburgh government would know were Cumbria is.
Be interesting to have a poll up North and see what the comments were it would have to be run up here as government would hand polling cards out in
Watford
The 50,000 Polish in Scotland will get the vote
The west coast around Faslane and Coulport will vote to stay in
If you had a girlfriend who was thinking of leaving you, you don't wait for her to make up her mind.
Take your shortbread, whiskey and swearing and go!
(Only joking, I think we'd be better together as the UK)
What observers from south of the border always miss is the factor is that over the last 40 years or so what is regarded as the centre ground in in politics has moved much further to the right in England and Wales than it has in Scotland. After the Pole Tax the Conservative Party became virtually extinct north of the border.
The only people who will see a benefit will be those who crave power after a successful referendum for independence has taken place. The claim that
Scotland is better of alone is nonsense, however it is one steeped in hatred of the English for crimes committed against the Scots centuries ago.
Rational debate is not being entered into which is needed. Alex Salmond is he'll bent on winning to make history, but would ruin the economy as
all the eggs are in one basket. the Scots get a much better deal out of the uk than the English do, we have to pay university fees old age care fees
whilst the Scottish parliament charge there own nothing.
I hope they stay as I fear the reality of independence will be a huge shock once it is cellar what they have lost.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
As I live in england I dont get a vote.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
As I live in england I dont get a vote.
This is the bit I don't understand.
Surely both partners in the union should get a chance to vote on whether it should be dissolved?
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Following that logic the whole of Europe would get a vote in any future referendum on UK EU membership.
And that's why they should stay
I don't think they've answered the real important questions, like will I need a visa to go on holiday in scotland? Will Duncan Ballatyne get
sent back there as a foreigner? WILL they have "Danny Boy" as their national anthem?
quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh WILL they have "Danny Boy" as their national anthem?
The annoying thing is that having been born in Scotland, eduacted in Scotland and worked in Scotland but living in England, I do not get a vote but
every other man and his dog living in Scotland at the moment do.
Had I been given a vote, I would vote no, we are better as one nation and feel sorry that some people living in Scotland will be carried along with
the Alex Salmond sound bites.
I have a Scottish old school friend who keeps sending me pro independence material, I relpied, if it was up to me, if he gave me ten bob he could have
the lot, it worked, no more crap from him.
It's all an elaborate bluff by Dave in order to make himself benevolent Dictator of England. Get rid of Scotland and Tories are pretty much
guaranteed to win the next election, get rid of wales and NI as well and they'd have a huge majority...
Joking of course, but it is at least partly true.
No, end of
Alex "I've taken legal advide" salmond cant be trusted on anything, his only real interest it making his willy bigger, and his ego
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh WILL they have "Danny Boy" as their national anthem?
Forcing them to adopt a song written by an Englishman about Ireland would certainly be a suitable humiliation, but perhaps a bit subtle for your average Glaswegian.
Along with severance from Sterling, I think we should insist on them taking 'Donald where's your troosers' as their national anthem, when they go.
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Crikey you are a bit bitter aren't you!
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Can't you see the racist element in these remarks? I'm British of English stock happily living in Scotland, by the way, and I can easily see how such remarks would fuel bigotry to the detriment of us all.
I have a Scottish friend that I drink with. I do keep reminding him that if the Scott's go independent, immigration will take him away!
Very simple response from me.
I'm a proud Scot.
I'm a proud Brit.
Independence will be a disaster for Scotland!
I will remain in the UK if Scottish independence is declared. ( ie. my family will leave Scotland)
Common sense will prevail and my last sentence won't matter.
Lots of money will be wasted and Scots will fight among themselves as they have always done.
Sigh!
Get a grip fellow Scots and vote NO and bring an end to this nonsense!
[Edited on 6/7/2014 by craig1410]
I can see how a yes vote is a positive for anyone apart from Alec salmond.
But it is making me bloody minded that if the vote is yes then that's it. In 5 or 10 or 20 or 40 years time I will NEVER vote yes to let them
back in to the Uk.
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Alex "I've taken legal advice" salmond cant be trusted on anything, his only real interest it making his willy bigger, and his ego
I'm in the UK (the Eastern bit), so I have no say.
If our Scottish compatriates wish to leave the UK to be led by King Salmond, so be it.
I can't be the only one that is tired of all the rhetoric from Salmondland. England and the English appear to be the root cause of all of
Salmondland's problems, but contribute little to all that is good.
quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Very simple response from me.
I'm a proud Scot.
I'm a proud Brit.
Independence will be a disaster for Scotland!
I will remain in the UK if Scottish dependence is declared. ( ie. my family will leave Scotland)
Common sense will prevail and my last sentence won't matter.
Lots of money will be wasted and Scots will fight among themselves as they have always done.
Sigh!
Get a grip fellow Scots and vote NO and bring an end to this nonsense!
The biggest ℅ support for the Yes vote is actually among the so called "white settlers" the rather racist name for the mainly
middle aged English born incomers who have settled in the highlands and islands. A lot of these people sold up in south east England making a killing
on their property and opted for a simpler life, often they play an active part in keeping local communities alive.
The No Campaign has been rather badly, early on thee No campaign put the wrong issues to focus on, particularly EU membership and the Pound when it
is fairly obvious these are non-existant problems.
The big problems would really centre on splitting up major non-devolved institutions and systems, BBC, DVLA, HMRC, MOD, ..........
The defence forces are another set off issues, an independent Scotland would need Trident like a hole in the head but providing a base for the
submarines is major source of employment. Splitting up or sharing the UK surface fleet, land and air forces less thorny issue. An indy Scotland is
never going to follow the Irish example of simply opting out of propertly defending its' own shore and would play a part in NATO.
I don't personally think it is a good idea for the Scots, but I think the right thing to do is support whatever the Scottish people decide.
I'm English (In fact I'm actually from South Yorkshire, so not really English at all) and have no desire to force my opinion on the Scots.
If using a divorce analogy, you can't stop your wife / husband from leaving you if they want. The best thing to do is let them go and do what is
right for the kids.
Stu
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
... but if that prick Salmond gets in charge I'm retreating back south of the wall at the first opportunity...
I generally don't have an issue with the SNP at all in fact I believe they do a good job in getting a good deal for scotland and this is where my
confusion starts. As far as my politically inept brain can work out, scotland to a degree sorts it's own laws, own education system and it gets
money,support and bargaining power from Westminster. Sounds like the best of both worlds in my mind. The only major benefits (from the SNP's
perspective) is a few more decision making rights and giving 'that prick' salmond the ego trip he so craves.
Why make a small nation into an even smaller country? I really struggle to come up with a solid sensible answer to support independence.
So as you started the discussion and as a resident what's your opinion scootz?
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
So as you started the discussion and as a resident what's your opinion scootz?
You'll get splinters sitting on that fence
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh WILL they have "Danny Boy" as their national anthem?
Forcing them to adopt a song written by an Englishman about Ireland would certainly be a suitable humiliation, but perhaps a bit subtle for your average Glaswegian.
Along with severance from Sterling, I think we should insist on them taking 'Donald where's your troosers' as their national anthem, when they go.
Crikey you are a bit bitter aren't you!
Can't you see the racist element in these remarks? I'm British of English stock happily living in Scotland, by the way, and I can easily see how such remarks would fuel bigotry to the detriment of us all.
No cheers today.
So we have an UK general election in May next year....if Scotland votes Yes in September is there any point in counting UK parliament votes in
Scotland? If not why not get rid of the Scottish MPs straight away and not let them vote on UK issues?
If Scotland votes yes then I think we English should do the big thing and give Wales and Northern Ireland independence as well. We'll have no
issues with flags, no issues with the English Pound issues by the Bank of England and no issues with what to call ourselves. it will also save us
(England) a small fortune in Tax.
If Scotland Votes yes do we reopen the shipbullding in Portsmouth which got closed to buy Scots No votes on the Clyde...Move the carrier and Type 26
builds to England.
Remember one thing....as George Galloway said recently, when two parties get divorced the one leaving doesn't get to use the joint credit card
anymore. Scotland will not get to use the Pound and it will get nasty....divorce always is and the UK government have no reason to play nice.
Ohh one more thing....If Scotland votes yes and ends up outside the EU expect Border Posts and immigration checks to be up and running straight away.
I truly hope that Scots will do the sensible thing and stay in the union. If they don't it will get very messy and nasty. I wonder if I'll
have a 2nd passport given my Scottish mother?
[Edited on 6/7/14 by jeffw]
[Edited on 6/7/14 by jeffw]
quote:
all i can see is a bunch of scottish people who have this hatred of everyone else. I work offshore and 90% of the people here are scottish, and they all have the same view of english people, you would think they were all on braveheart the way they carry on.
Having asked plenty of guys out here what they are voting for, they all say independance. So I ask them why, all i get is a long pause and then 'so the english cannae tell us what tae dae'. Other than they, they dont have a clue why theyre voting!!
I'm voting no as will my dog
All they go on about is the oil blah blah
This is like for hundreds of years to come and if Scotland got into trouble and wanted to re-join the UK there's no chance the other countries
would say yes!
Creates more problems short and long term than it remotely solves. Just a few big ego politian’s trying desperately to get power and notoriety. Whole
thing is a dumb idea in the first place
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
all the folk you see being interviewed about it say yes and seem to ignore the fact that the only thing that comes out of AS's mouth is 'that's just scare tactics' and no actual answers.
If the Scots do vote Yes, I wonder what langauge they will use after the split.......... surely they won't continue to use ENGLISH!!!
I actually think it's a load of hot air created by Alex Salmond trying to get into the history books and most folk will see the light and vote
No. It will be a huge mistake for Scotland to split from UK.
I can't vote as I moved to SA 4 yrs ago.
i don't get the whole independance thing isn't it old fashioned the rest of europes making closer ties , the euro, open boarders, free trade
etc .......only england and scotland could be going the other way .... laughable really
No woodster, not quite the same thing. The rest of the world is not combining to one single government.
As I mentioned somewhere, I hope the Union stays intact but with some eventual changes. For Scotland/Wales and NI to be governed by Westminster is
mad, which means a few changes - so certain thing should be "federal/unionistic" - and some things national.
If Scotland does decide to leave, that'll be 47 labour mp's who will no longer be voting in the HoP as they won't have jobs there;
consequently Nick Clegg and his merry band of political agnostics won't be required to form a government. Which will keep me very happy
indeed.
Silver linings and all that.
ATB
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
For Scotland/Wales and NI to be governed by Westminster is mad...
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
For Scotland/Wales and NI to be governed by Westminster is mad...
Why, exactly?
I don't see anyone saying that it's 'mad' for Texas, California and Alaska to be governed from Washington, or that it's illogical that China can be a global power because it's 'mad' for such a large country to be ruled from one capital at Beijing.
And if you step back a little further you have Mercia, Wessex etc etc....your argument means that Wessex should be ruled from Winchester again by the
King of Wessex?
Also Northern Ireland was never a separate country (Ireland was invaded in 1177 by the Normans so came under 'English' control) and Wales
has been ruled by the English crown for a lot longer than Scotland (1282 compared with the act of union on 1707).
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Er, because England, Scotland, Wales and NI form the Union being 4 separate countries. The United States is one country, China is one country.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
I don't see anyone saying that it's 'mad' for Texas, California and Alaska to be governed from Washington
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
I don't see anyone saying that it's 'mad' for Texas, California and Alaska to be governed from Washington
try telling that to a Texan
the whole point of the USA is that the states retain a degree of autonomy
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
No woodster, not quite the same thing. The rest of the world is not combining to one single government.
.... the rest of Europe are going towards a federal style government like as said above the USA,...... i personelly
hope they don't vote yes, i still think we're better as one united kingdom, it'll start a complete collapse Wales will be next then
Yorkshire and Lancashire not wanting to be governed by soft southern jessys
I've been on the fence from the start due to a lack of information from either side, however I'm now firmly in the YES camp.
One of the reasons that it is so hard to make an informed decision is due to the political alignment of the vast majority of the UK press. Not
surprisingly none of the dailies or nationals are pro independence, so anything reported tends to be skewed in favour of the unionists.
It has become increasingly obvious that the Better Together (BT) have continually used half truths (or at times complete lies) to play on the fears of
the voter, examples suchs as health care, education and pensions when the truth is that scottish health care and education are already completely
controlled and funded by the scottish government, while Westminster has confirmed that state pension would still be paid by Westminster to anybody who
is currently eligible, the same way that if you move abroad to Spain etc your state pension is still paid to you.
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true
approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year
more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
The other problem is Alex Salmond. We are not voting for Alex Salmond or the SNP we are voting on whether we want to be an independent country who has
the power to elect a government of our choice and in the event of a yes vote we will get the chance to do exactly that.
Cheers
Davie
[Edited on 25/8/14 by daviep]
Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving
doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to
worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
It would be more accurate to say the London supports the rest of the UK, not Scotland.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
No woodster, not quite the same thing. The rest of the world is not combining to one single government.
no not the rest of the world
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of the UK.
Really? Are you sure about that?
2013 GDP of Scotland = £248 Billion
2013 GDP of United Kingdom as a whole = £2,522 Billion
So let me get this right... you're saying that noble little Scotland, with a GPD of 10% of the union, is propping up the whole UK economy single handedly?
What have you been smoking, and where can I buy some, please?
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
We give Westminster more than we receive therefore we are supporting the rest of the UK. I'm not sure which bit of this you don't understand?
Cheers
Davie
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
We give Westminster more than we receive therefore we are supporting the rest of the UK. I'm not sure which bit of this you don't understand?
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all concerned.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all concerned.
Says who?
You seem to believe that Scotland has a unilateral say in things.
Is there an open border between NI and Eire?
Does Eire share the pound?
Neither an open border (very serious security issues) nor a shared currency (look at what happened to the Euro with the mismatch between the Greek and German economies), would be in the UK's interest, so why should we accept them?
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all concerned.
Says who?
You seem to believe that Scotland has a unilateral say in things.
Is there an open border between NI and Eire?
Does Eire share the pound?
Neither an open border (very serious security issues) nor a shared currency (look at what happened to the Euro with the mismatch between the Greek and German economies), would be in the UK's interest, so why should we accept them?
Having read, and re-read all the comments on the whole independence question, I noted that the currency issue caused much discussion.
Take a look at Slovenia. This small, mountainous country had been part of the enforced amalgamation of various, previously sub-Austro_Hungarian,
states into what used to be Yugoslavia. Seizing the opportunity to gain their independence, while the Serbian nationalists battled with everyone else,
the Slovenes created their own currency (the tolar). In 2006/2007 they adopted the Euro. Their agriculturally-based economy now seems to have become
much more based on tourism. Which might be an interesting possibility for the future independent Scots to follow.
The whole of the Yes campaign seems to be based on what everyone else might do....The rest of the UK might have an open border, Scotland
'may' be able to join the EU straight away and Scotland will have a currency union with the Rest of the UK.
All of these things are not going to happen. Scotland will get a vote on the 18th September on independence....but the remaining parts of the UK do
not have to smile and play nice afterwards. You will be on your own. Most large companies will have to move south to remain in the EU, all the
current RN shipbuilding north of the border will be brought back to Portsmouth and so on and so forth.
It will not be nice or pleasant, divorce never is. The UK will look after itself without regard to Scotland.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The whole of the Yes campaign seems to be based on what everyone else might do....The rest of the UK might have an open border, Scotland 'may' be able to join the EU straight away and Scotland will have a currency union with the Rest of the UK.
All of these things are not going to happen. Scotland will get a vote on the 18th September on independence....but the remaining parts of the UK do not have to smile and play nice afterwards. You will be on your own. Most large companies will have to move south to remain in the EU, all the current RN shipbuilding north of the border will be brought back to Portsmouth and so on and so forth.
It will not be nice or pleasant, divorce never is. The UK will look after itself without regard to Scotland.
Jeff, we are each other's biggest trading partners. It would be spite-driven economic insanity for the remaining members of the UK to block a
currency union if Scotland does vote 'Yes'.
As for EU membership scare stories... Scotland is largely pro-Europe - the noises from the rest of the UK suggest there is a real possibility of the
UK (as it stands) removing itself from the EU if the Tory 'in /out' ballot happens as promised.
And if that does happen, then there is a strong possibility that the Government of the day will be a Tory / UKIP coalition. Boris as our PM and Nigel
as his Deputy. Now I don't know about you, but that prospect TERRIFIES me! A buffoon and a racist.
Sam - the Third World??? . Come on fella... we're trying to have a serious conversation here. Economists on both sides of the debate have long
been confident that Scotland would remain a wealthy country if it gained independence.
Like Davie, I was undecided, but I've climbed down on the 'Yes' side of the fence. It just seems a no-brainer. Sadly though, I think
it will be a 'No' vote as a lot of the Scottish population have bought the ridiculous scare stories.
And let's congratulate ourselves here folks... there are not many places on the planet where such matters can be decided so peacefully and
democratically.
Should also add that a currency union and using another countries currency are not mutually exclusive. The remaining members of the UK could not stop an independent Scotland from using the pound if thats what the Scottish government decided they wanted to use.
So the basic premises is of the Yes campaign is.....we are off but we expect you to bend over backwards and be nice. Why on earth would we (the UK)
do that?
Yes, of course, Scotland can use Sterling. But fiscal policy will be set by the Bank of England to suit the UK not Scotland. You might as well use
US Dollars for the control over your economy it will give you.
The Yes campaign is based on wishful thinking without any factual answers.
I suppose the plus side is no more Labour Governments....bonus. Vote Yes all you Scots....please.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by jeffw]
It will be a sad day if the Scottish electorate do decide to leave the UK. The biggest problem I see is that both sides have not been honest as you
can manipulate figures until the cows come home. From the figures I have seen there is no doubt Scotland will be okay on their own, so long as the oil
still flows, but if it all goes wrong there is no way the economic future is as good alone as together.
The people who should feel they get the worst deal is the English electorate, the Scottish Welsh and NI all have a vote on what we get to spend and do
but we have no say in Scotland. I object to free prescriptions, free tuition and free end of life care, when we have none of that in England and no
party suggests that we should have it.
The main reason Salmond wants a yes vote is power, pure and simple. The only people who will benefit long term are the political elite of Scotland,
the average person will see no difference at all in their day to day life.
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all
regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect
anything different?
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country).
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they
own, and the tourism they generate).
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic
stability?
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and
Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets.
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and truthfully.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
Still not seen anything other than blind hope and wishes from the yes campaign.
The lack of effort put into fighting for togetherness by any uk party suggests the loss of Scotland from the economy won't be detrimental,
that's what leads me to worry.
Still seems to me like childish drum banging and clan mentality with no firm basis in reality (every single question asked of the yes campaign ends in
them saying "it will all be better, you're all wrong (fingers in ears). Its as if they genuinely beleive they will get the best of all
worlds. They want a divorce but to keep the joint account, the joint house, the joint everything and think everyone else will join their merry train
to lala land.
As an English person living in Scotland I'm getting a vote but I think of myself as a UK citizen, not English.with a smaller pot you can bankroll
fewer things. The recent claim they can take the license fee contributions, expend the same amount and get the same amount back proves to me they
don't understand what they are talking about. Great politicians but I predict (more) bloody awful governance.
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect anything different? Scotland keeping the pound would be beneficial to both parties in the form of a currency union, if the UK did not want a currency union they cannot stop Scotland using the pound.
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare. The 3 NHS's (England, Scotland and Wales) have been completly seperate, if you live in Scotland and are treated in England then NHS England charges NHS Scotland for your care, this has been the case since 1950 ish, there is no UK NHS.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country).Scotland will have to form it's own armed forces.
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they own, and the tourism they generate).Interesting question!
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic stability?They can leave should they wish to, hopefully that won't happen.
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets. No they have not. The EU commission has said that they will confirm Scotlands position if a member state asks, the UK government refuse to ask
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland? Unfortunately that wouldn't work, the main reason for independence is so that we can elect a government of our choosing as opposed to the government England wants which is effectively what happens.
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and truthfully.This is a big problem, many of the questions have been answered but press bias means the answers are not easily available.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare. - The Scots will have their portion of the NHS to fund and run
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country). - I would presume that a proportion of the armed forces will remain in Scottish hands, can't imagine the Scots Guards will not remain (as a for instance)
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they own, and the tourism they generate). - HMQ will remain head of state of an independent Scotland so not an issue.
Why are you surprised? You (collectively the Yes campaign) want to leave the union but think you should be allowed to keep the bits you want. Really
is remarkable that you think this is likely to happen. There is no advantage to the UK in a currency union with Scotland and even if there was there
is no way you are going to get it.
I think Scotland (and the Scots) has every right to choose in September and I wish you well. Just don't expect to be treated any differently to
any other foreign country if you decide to leave.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Still not seen anything other than blind hope and wishes from the yes campaign.
The lack of effort put into fighting for togetherness by any uk party suggests the loss of Scotland from the economy won't be detrimental, that's what leads me to worry.
Still seems to me like childish drum banging and clan mentality with no firm basis in reality (every single question asked of the yes campaign ends in them saying "it will all be better, you're all wrong (fingers in ears). Its as if they genuinely beleive they will get the best of all worlds. They want a divorce but to keep the joint account, the joint house, the joint everything and think everyone else will join their merry train to lala land.
As an English person living in Scotland I'm getting a vote but I think of myself as a UK citizen, not English.with a smaller pot you can bankroll fewer things. The recent claim they can take the license fee contributions, expend the same amount and get the same amount back proves to me they don't understand what they are talking about. Great politicians but I predict (more) bloody awful governance.
quote:I agree
Originally posted by spaximus
It will be a sad day if the Scottish electorate do decide to leave the UK. The biggest problem I see is that both sides have not been honest as you can manipulate figures until the cows come home. From the figures I have seen there is no doubt Scotland will be okay on their own, so long as the oil still flows, but if it all goes wrong there is no way the economic future is as good alone as together.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
You are painting with very broad strokes and little detail.
For me it has little to do with how I see my nationality, I happily call myself British. It is all to do with getting a government who are in line with my views.
I appreciate that even if I get the YES vote I want that I still may not get the government I want. I appreciate that if I get the government I want they may well still not deliver what I want. But as things stand I will never get what I want or even close, we are going to be stuck with half wit governments who continually plunder the country to look after the few and waste billions on defence that could be spent on health care, education, industry or any other amount of home grown causes. I can't see how it can be any worse than it is now.
Cheers
Davie
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
If there is a YES vote then we will have to election and there is every chance that SNP/Salmond will not be re-elected, I'm not his greatest fan.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
we are each other's biggest trading partners. It would be spite-driven economic insanity for the remaining members of the UK to block a currency union if Scotland does vote 'Yes'.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Sam - the Third World???
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect anything different?
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country).
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they own, and the tourism they generate).
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic stability?
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets.
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and truthfully.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
It makes me laugh when there are a couple of 'school kids' on the TV bickering with each other about why it should or should not happen.
They must think theyre so cool when they come up with a good comeback...
One of which has no say in the matter at all (the English MP) and the other... well what can be said about him?!
Forget the 'debates', write the facts down so people can see whats what.
I work with a lot of scots, and not one of them can tell me why they are going to vote yes. I assume just because theyve watched braveheart a few
times.
quote:
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
So more ScottishDagger than BritishTrident then.
The Yes campaign will continue to make promises which don't stack up. If you vote yes the effects will be pretty swift, watch the corporates
move out of Edinburgh like rats from a sinking ship. Mind you you are welcome to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland, sure we can arrange
the transfer of debt.
The spectre of the Scottish Parliament project will hang over everything an independent Scotland sets up. If Salmond say something will cost
£10M....it will cost you £100M (in Scottish Groats or whatever the currency is).
[Edited on 25/8/14 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic stability?
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
Stuff...
He doesn't want to keep Trident....
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
He doesn't want to keep Trident....
quote:
Originally posted by Matt21
It makes me laugh when there are a couple of 'school kids' on the TV bickering with each other about why it should or should not happen. They must think theyre so cool when they come up with a good comeback...
One of which has no say in the matter at all (the English MP) and the other... well what can be said about him?!
Forget the 'debates', write the facts down so people can see whats what.
I work with a lot of scots, and not one of them can tell me why they are going to vote yes. I assume just because theyve watched braveheart a few times.
quote:
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
Thats what it is now.... except that in Scotland you get free perscriptions etc etc that we dont.... yet a lot of scots think theyre hard done to and want out (i'm going to say thats the majority, the vote will decide if im right or not)
If it is a 'no', do you honestly think that all these anti english scotsmen will change the way they veiw english people?
Until I started working offshore I didnt realise how racist people are. Of the folk I work with, 80% are from scotland, 90% of those have some issue with english people.... whats that all about?!
Best you stay in Socialist Scotland then....now, about this username...
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case for Scotland.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtridentIt really is time England adjusted to the fact without an empire it is little more than a mothballed aircraft carrier for the USA.
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case for Scotland.
One thing that has crossed my mind here is that if Scotland were to need to apply to join the EU as an independent nation, would Spain veto it? Spain could well object, as it would be setting a precedent for the Basque region to push for independence and immediate re-entry to the EU. Could other countries have similar objections?
Interesting discussion, but can we keep to independence?
However I'm not sure why currency is such a large question. The UK cant stop Scotland using the £ and if Scotland joins Europe the it's the
euro. However i'm not sure why the idea of Scotland own currency has not gained traction, a favorable exchange rate against both the the £ and
Euro would be good and help tourism and business grow.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by ceebmoj]
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojThe UK cant stop Scotland using the £ ...
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case for Scotland.
One thing that has crossed my mind here is that if Scotland were to need to apply to join the EU as an independent nation, would Spain veto it? Spain could well object, as it would be setting a precedent for the Basque region to push for independence and immediate re-entry to the EU. Could other countries have similar objections?
Quite simple
Scotland using the UK Pound in a currency union will mean that the UKs Fiscal Policy will have to take into account economic conditions in Scotland
when the Bank of England sets interest rates etc.
Scotland using the UK Pound without a currency union means the UK can set its fiscal policy for itself and not a foreign country. Scotland might as
well use the Norwegian Kroner or the Yen for the advantage this will give them. No ability to deal with fiscal matters in an Independent Scotland.
Scotland having the Euro as the currency will depend on EU membership and them meeting the criteria to join. And then they will be members of a club
which is slowly destroying most of the countries that are members.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojThe UK cant stop Scotland using the £ ...
On what do you base that assertion? My understanding is that a country cannot share another country's currency as its principal currency, without a mutual agreement of monetary union.
There are countries that use another country's currency as legal tender on a day-to-day basis (for example Panama and several others, I think, use the the US dollar), but underpinned by a 'national' currency with a variable exchange rate.
There are both practical and political difficulties to monetarily linking two separately controlled economies; you need an exchange rate mechanism, similar to that used for the Euro, which needs political agreement. The UK will be under no obligation to sign up to such an agreement. Without it, Scotland has two choices: adopt another currency, or not function as a separate political and sovereign entity.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by Sam_68]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Scotland having the Euro as the currency will depend on EU membership and them meeting the criteria to join. And then they will be members of a club which is slowly destroying most of the countries that are members.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Your understanding is wrong.
Cheers
Davie
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojThe UK cant stop Scotland using the £ ...
On what do you base that assertion? My understanding is that a country cannot share another country's currency as its principal currency, without a mutual agreement of monetary union.
There are countries that use another country's currency as legal tender on a day-to-day basis (for example Panama and several others, I think, use the the US dollar), but underpinned by a 'national' currency with a variable exchange rate.
There are both practical and political difficulties to monetarily linking two separately controlled economies; you need an exchange rate mechanism, similar to that used for the Euro, which needs political agreement. The UK will be under no obligation to sign up to such an agreement. Without it, Scotland has two choices: adopt another currency, or not function as a separate political and sovereign entity.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by Sam_68]
Your understanding is wrong.
Cheers
Davie
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Any one can use any currency they like, they just need to purchase a sufficiently large amount.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Granted you would have no control over interest rate, but the currency can be used.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Your understanding is wrong.
Cheers
Davie
Then, as I have requested already, put me right: tell me the basis for your assertion.
...otherwise you're just making it up.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The pound is a fully trade-able currency which means any country can use it.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
I don't believe I'm making it up.
Sam_68, I agree with you. But that does not mean the currency can't be used. It means its not a great idea to do it. As I said before I'm
surprised an independent currency has not gained more traction.
Oil, timber and other assets would seam to be good for trading for £.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by ceebmoj]
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Any one can use any currency they like, they just need to purchase a sufficiently large amount.
Purchase it with what, exactly?
March in to that Bank of England and ask for several hundred billion pounds in barter for some substandard timber, a few cases of Scotch and some nice Harris Tweed?
What happens when inflation has reduced that £several hundred billion to the price of a new Dacia Sandero? What do you buy more with?
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Granted you would have no control over interest rate, but the currency can be used.
Exactly. You have no control over a number of other important factors, either. In short, you have no fiscal independence.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojIt means its not a great idea to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Good recovery, looks like you did know what you were talking about all along
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojIt means its not a great idea to do it.
It goes beyond being 'not a great idea'.
As I've said previously, there are a number of countries who use the US$ as their practical, day-to-day currency (and I suspect there may even be some that use the £UK), but without an exchange rate mechanism, you need your own currency to allow your economy to operate independently.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
What you said previously was that Scotland wouldn't be allowed to use the pound
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
What you said previously was that Scotland wouldn't be allowed to use the pound
I thought it would have been obvious, even to a complete moron, that by implication we were talking about its use as a sovereign currency.
Obviously even a private individual such as myself can nip down the post office and buy pretty much any currency in the world (with my hard-earned £UK's of course!), which I can then use to trade for goods (or other currencies) with anyone willing to accept it. Sadly, it doesn't give me sufficient fiscal control to be able to set up my own republic (or set interest rates, control inflation, or fix policies that depend on either).
But you were about to start answering some of my questions, I had hoped?
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
I cant answer your questions as I don't really understand them...
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Scotland having the Euro as the currency will depend on EU membership and them meeting the criteria to join. And then they will be members of a club which is slowly destroying most of the countries that are members.
Ah, the trusty old 1-2.
The 'you're not getting into the EU' jab... followed swiftly by the 'and even if you do the EU is shit' right hook.
Love it!
Have we agreed that Scotland can use the £ assuming, the Bank of England agrees to sell £ to Scotland and Scotland has the resource to purchase £ at
the market rate. However this means that Scotland would not be have any financial control over £?
Does an independent Scotland want control of interest rates and the other financial mechanisms that having a sovereign currency bring? If European
membership is the goal, surly the answer is no as the euro will not offer this either.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
I cant answer your questions as I don't really understand them...
Then, by your own admission, you're about to vote to take your country, irreversibly, into an uncertain future on the basis of arguments that you don't understand.
God (or Allah, or Jehovah, or possibly Buddha) help Scotland, if it is depending on the knee-jerk opinion of people like yourself to guide it in the right direction!
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Have we agreed that Scotland can use the £ assuming, the Bank of England agrees to sell £ to Scotland and Scotland has the resource to purchase £ at the market rate.
Sad that this discussion, which is very important to both countries is descending into a bad tempered pub argument.
What has been said before is politicians spin the story to their own ends. What the Scottish electorate, not just Scots, have to decide is what they
believe. To my mind if the facts were given by a third party it would be easy to decide. The truth is neither side can do a good job as it is all
sound bite.
Some questions, The Scots could use the pound as described, however an independent Scotland would then have no control over the part a currency could
have in their fiscal policy. The UK by not being in the Eurozone, has been able to keep interest rates down as it was in the interest of our economy.
Scotland would forfeit that control, why would you do that?
How would getting rid of the naval bases in Scotland help the economy.
We hear of Scotland wanting a share of supposed assets, but little mention of their share of the national debt being transferred, a bit like a wife
running up huge credit card debts, running off with someone else, not paying anything but still getting half the house and income for life, how would
the yes group want to take that hit?
Too much of this is down to historical dislike of the English from the yes group, yes the English hundreds of years ago were ruthless in their methods
to try to rule, but they were not us. In truth the rulers were just as ruthless with any groups who wanted to argue against them, but we have moved on
since then, but clearly some have not in Scotland.
I truly believe that there will be a resounding no vote, which should be the end of it, but it will not be, this will keep going on ad nauseam for the
next few hundred years, but one of the great things about democracy is that you have a vote, if it is yes them we should try to make the best of it,
if it is no then there is no change.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Have we agreed that Scotland can use the £ assuming, the Bank of England agrees to sell £ to Scotland and Scotland has the resource to purchase £ at the market rate.
Yes, but I'd still like to know what Scotland intends to buy those £ with.
You suggested 'oil, timber and other assets'. Fair enough, except the last figures I've seen suggest that Scotland is running a net deficit of £14 billion per year (in other words, it's importing £14 billion more than it's exporting, already).
So Scotland hasn't got the resources to purchase £ at the market rate, except, perhaps, by selling off the family silver (other fixed assets).
Scottish timber is crap and is getting crapper, due to climate change (as is British and Welsh timber, to be fair - decent quality structural timber all comes from colder, slower-growth climates like Scandinavia and Canada), the oil won't last for ever, and other resources are limited either in supply or demand. The only way is down...
quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
Sad that this discussion, which is very important to both countries is descending into a bad tempered pub argument.
What has been said before is politicians spin the story to their own ends. What the Scottish electorate, not just Scots, have to decide is what they believe. To my mind if the facts were given by a third party it would be easy to decide. The truth is neither side can do a good job as it is all sound bite.
Some questions, The Scots could use the pound as described, however an independent Scotland would then have no control over the part a currency could have in their fiscal policy. The UK by not being in the Eurozone, has been able to keep interest rates down as it was in the interest of our economy. Scotland would forfeit that control, why would you do that?
How would getting rid of the naval bases in Scotland help the economy.
We hear of Scotland wanting a share of supposed assets, but little mention of their share of the national debt being transferred, a bit like a wife running up huge credit card debts, running off with someone else, not paying anything but still getting half the house and income for life, how would the yes group want to take that hit?
Too much of this is down to historical dislike of the English from the yes group, yes the English hundreds of years ago were ruthless in their methods to try to rule, but they were not us. In truth the rulers were just as ruthless with any groups who wanted to argue against them, but we have moved on since then, but clearly some have not in Scotland.
I truly believe that there will be a resounding no vote, which should be the end of it, but it will not be, this will keep going on ad nauseam for the next few hundred years, but one of the great things about democracy is that you have a vote, if it is yes them we should try to make the best of it, if it is no then there is no change.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
The problem for me is, I don't know how everything is calculated. None of the partys seem to be keen to make this clear.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
For instance does the deficit include all revenues related to the oil that has been taken out of the north sea?
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
There is potential for a lot of renewable power to be generated in Scotland and that would be something that could be traded with the UK that is very short of it at the moment.
quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
Sad that this discussion, which is very important to both countries is descending into a bad tempered pub argument.
What has been said before is politicians spin the story to their own ends. What the Scottish electorate, not just Scots, have to decide is what they believe. To my mind if the facts were given by a third party it would be easy to decide. The truth is neither side can do a good job as it is all sound bite.
Some questions, The Scots could use the pound as described, however an independent Scotland would then have no control over the part a currency could have in their fiscal policy. The UK by not being in the Eurozone, has been able to keep interest rates down as it was in the interest of our economy. Scotland would forfeit that control, why would you do that? In the case of a currency union so that Scotland could benefit from the security of the assets backing up the currency.
How would getting rid of the naval bases in Scotland help the economy. Are you discussing getting rid of Trident/Nuclear subsfrom Faslane? If so there are several aspects, Trident is huge waste of money as it not a suitable deterrent for the type of conflict (terrorism) we are involved in today. If we didn't have nuclear subs in the area then there is possibility for oil exploration. Faslane is th eproposed base for the Scottish navy.
We hear of Scotland wanting a share of supposed assets, but little mention of their share of the national debt being transferred, a bit like a wife running up huge credit card debts, running off with someone else, not paying anything but still getting half the house and income for life, how would the yes group want to take that hit? The proposal from the YES SCOTLAND is that we will inherit our share of the national debt in return for a currency union. This seems entirely fair, Scotland gets it's share of the debt in return for the security which the assets provide, if the UK wish to keep all the assets then it is fair that they keep all the debt also.
Too much of this is down to historical dislike of the English from the yes group, yes the English hundreds of years ago were ruthless in their methods to try to rule, but they were not us. In truth the rulers were just as ruthless with any groups who wanted to argue against them, but we have moved on since then, but clearly some have not in Scotland. While this is definitely a driving force for some people I believe more of the people of Scotland (not just the Scottish) who want independence see it as a way of (hopefully) getting back to a government which runs the country for the benefit of the people and not the shareholder or club member.
I truly believe that there will be a resounding no vote, which should be the end of it, but it will not be, this will keep going on ad nauseam for the next few hundred years, but one of the great things about democracy is that you have a vote, if it is yes them we should try to make the best of it, if it is no then there is no change. I will accept what ever the outcome is either way, once there is a decision made then it is in all our best interests to make the best of it either ay.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Have we agreed that Scotland can use the £ assuming, the Bank of England agrees to sell £ to Scotland and Scotland has the resource to purchase £ at the market rate.
Yes, but I'd still like to know what Scotland intends to buy those £ with.
You suggested 'oil, timber and other assets'. Fair enough, except the last figures I've seen suggest that Scotland is running a net deficit of £14 billion per year (in other words, it's importing £14 billion more than it's exporting, already).
So Scotland hasn't got the resources to purchase £ at the market rate, except, perhaps, by selling off the family silver (other fixed assets).
Scottish timber is crap and is getting crapper, due to climate change (as is British and Welsh timber, to be fair - decent quality structural timber all comes from colder, slower-growth climates like Scandinavia and Canada), the oil won't last for ever, and other resources are limited either in supply or demand. The only way is down...
The problem for me is, I don't know how everything is calculated. None of the partys seem to be keen to make this clear. For instance does the deficit include all revenues related to the oil that has been taken out of the north sea? There is potential for a lot of renewable power to be generated in Scotland and that would be something that could be traded with the UK that is very short of it at the moment.
I would guess that some significant additional revenue could be made from leasing land back to the UK for things like the nuclear power stations (who will pay for decommissioning). Would an independent Scotland be allowed to have the stations for reasons of non proliferation?
quote:
Originally posted by daviepThe proposal from the YES SCOTLAND is that we will inherit our share of the national debt in return for a currency union. This seems entirely fair, Scotland gets it's share of the debt in return for the security which the assets provide, if the UK wish to keep all the assets then it is fair that they keep all the debt also.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Like yourself I don't understand completely how everything is calculated but I do know that the calculation which shows Scotland running at a £14.2 billion deficit for the year 2012 - 2013 excludes any revenue from North Sea oil and gas see HERE.
I've just read all the posts about this and if I'm honest most of it goes over my head. Some posts here are good and others almost like a
school yard slagging match, which I would expect to see on other forums but not this one!
I'm scottish and living on the west coast. For me it comes down to faslane and if that goes along with BAE Systems as a result of a yes vote,
then I don't know how the west coast will survive with the loss of that many jobs. I already come from a town with high unemployment and as a
result a high number of crime and drug problems. How much worse would it get if faslane etc go???
So I unfortunately will be a No vote. In theory I like the idea of a Yes vote, but I just don't think long term that it will work.
With regards to all the figures etc getting batted about, this seems a very good video if you've got a spare 30mins to watch it.......
YouTube link
quote:
Originally posted by johnny chimpo
With regards to all the figures etc getting batted about, this seems a very good video if you've got a spare 30mins to watch it.......
YouTube link
Galloway's take on this seems to be sensible (can't believe I've just typed that)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k7nZ1PFaSQ
Currency union will mean Scotland giving up sovereignty without the 52 MPs in Westminster to effect the fiscal policies. The SNP mean to retain the
£, the Queen as head of state, membership of NATO & the EU. Where is the independence in that?
The SNP intend to cut business tax by 3% to attract new businesses to Scotland. Rest assured the UK will cut its business taxes to be as good as or
better than Scotland, who do you think will win this 'race to the bottom'.
How can the SNP demand that the nuclear deterrent be moved from Scotland when they wish to remain in a club, NATO, which exists under the umbrella of
the Nuclear Deterrent from US, UK & France.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Assuming the (more generous) geographical share, this suggests that North Sea oil and gas are worth about £5.6 billion to the Scottish economy anyway... not enough to make a difference, and projected revenues are declining sharply?
Ultimately if Scotland, as a nation, wants to leave the union then goodbye and good luck.
Just don't expect to come back if times get tough and don't expect to use the Joint Account or the Credit Cards.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Ultimately if Scotland, as a nation, wants to leave the union then goodbye and good luck.
Just don't expect to come back if times get tough
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Ultimately if Scotland, as a nation, wants to leave the union then goodbye and good luck.
Just don't expect to come back if times get tough and don't expect to use the Joint Account or the Credit Cards.
It would be interesting to see how things pan out if Scotland votes to leave the UK and joins the EU, and then the UK vote to leave the EU.
Stu
yip one great big experiment with our kids futures
quote:
yip one great big experiment with our kids futures
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Ultimately if Scotland, as a nation, wants to leave the union then goodbye and good luck.
Just don't expect to come back if times get tough and don't expect to use the Joint Account or the Credit Cards.
Thanks Jeff if it happens I'm sure Scotland will leave with enough assets and perhaps a little debt the exact details of which will be decided by negotiation after the vote.
I don't blame the rest of the UK for being scared about Scottish Independence, if the UK government negotiate the separation with their usual skill and foresight Scotland well end up with bank account and the credit card.
Cheers
Davie
quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
quote:
yip one great big experiment with our kids futures
Otherwise known as life!
Not sure it has ever been any different.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Ultimately if Scotland, as a nation, wants to leave the union then goodbye and good luck.
Just don't expect to come back if times get tough and don't expect to use the Joint Account or the Credit Cards.
Thanks Jeff if it happens I'm sure Scotland will leave with enough assets and perhaps a little debt the exact details of which will be decided by negotiation after the vote.
I don't blame the rest of the UK for being scared about Scottish Independence, if the UK government negotiate the separation with their usual skill and foresight Scotland well end up with bank account and the credit card.
Cheers
Davie
Davie
You miss-understand. I welcome Scottish independence. No more Labour Governments, shipbuilding back in Portsmouth and our reluctant brothers gone into the category of 'foreigners'. No more Brown/Blair nonsense. We'll be round to tow the carriers away a week next Wednesday, don't bother finishing them
I guess you lot will want to borrow our language. I'm sure the SNP will want a language union to go with the currency malarkey. So someone elses language/curreny/fiscal policy & head of state. Sounds like independence to me.
Actually that isn't true but we'll let it slid.
All joking apart, it will be a very sad day if Scotland votes to leave the union and I genuinely wish an independent Scotland well if that is what
happens.
Historical and constitutional point the Queen is not Queen of Britain or the UK she holds two crowns in UK. Queen of Scotland and Queen of
England ( which includes Wales and Ulster) the crowns are separate but joined since 1606 when the King of Scotland James VI inherited the English
crown. The Queen rules Ulster because it was colonised by England under James I (James VI) although the colonists were mainly Scottish protestants.
The principality of Wales comes under the crown of England because it was conquered by Edward Langshanks.
The union of the parliaments came about in 1707 because although Scotland and England shared a monarch the Scottish merchants were banned from
investing in English colonies in the Americas and the English were short of colonists.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by britishtrident]
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Historical and constitutional point the Queen is not Queen of Britain or the UK she holds two crowns in UK. Queen of Scotland and Queen of England
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Historical and constitutional point the Queen is not Queen of Britain or the UK she holds two crowns in UK. Queen of Scotland and Queen of England ( which includes Wales and Ulster) the crowns are separate but joined since 1606 when the King of Scotland James VI inherited the English crown. The Queen rules Ulster because it was colonised by England under James I (James VI) although the colonists were mainly Scottish protestants. The principality of Wales comes under the crown of England because it was conquered by Edward Langshanks.
The union of the parliaments came about in 1707 because although Scotland and England shared a monarch the Scottish merchants were banned from investing in English colonies in the Americas and the English were short of colonists.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by britishtrident]
quote:
Originally posted by britishtridentThe union of the parliaments came about in 1707 because although Scotland and England shared a monarch the Scottish merchants were banned from investing in English colonies in the Americas and the English were short of colonists.
I don't think there will be any other result than a no vote, and probably a much larger majority voting to stay as is than any of these polls are
predicting. Anyone with anything to lose cannot afford to take the risk. There is an awful lot of pensioners in Scotland and a lot of people on
benefits and neither should be in a hurry to sign up to see their pensions and benefits diminished. The SNP never in a million years expected to be
in the position they find themselves in. They are only in power in Scotland due to Labours woeful performance when they were in power.
Independence sounds good and can be done but not without years possibly decades of hardship, there will be hyper inflation and financial crisis. If
Scotland was independent at the time of the last economic crisis we would already be bust.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by Scuzzle]
quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
If Scotland was independent at the time of the last economic crisis we would already be bust.
Which is an interesting point. If there is an overwhelming NO vote, where does that leave the SNP?
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
If Scotland was independent at the time of the last economic crisis we would already be bust.
What is that based on?
Iceland and Ireland were both hit hard by the crisis but have recovered quicker than the UK.
Cheers
Davie
Salmond keeps quoting Icelandic countries as role models for independence but he never mentions how much more expensive everything is there, it's
£9 for a pint in Norway. Ireland does not have a Poundland it has a Twopoundland (or 2 Euro land). Thats what awaits an independent Scotland.
Everyone bangs on about oil but if there is a tax deficit when we have oil and there are only 35 years left it might sound like a long time but
it's not enough to see out our lifetime never mind our kids. When the oil runs out and we are reduced to shale mining then all of a sudden
England will see itself as the country with the oil purely due to having the biggest land mass.
An overwhelming no vote should see off any future referendums for long enough, a narrow margin and you will be going through it all again in the near
future.
The SNP will still champion more powers for Scotland, - Devo Max which has always been the safe option anyway.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by Scuzzle]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
If Scotland was independent at the time of the last economic crisis we would already be bust.
What is that based on?
Iceland and Ireland were both hit hard by the crisis but have recovered quicker than the UK.
Cheers
Davie
Iceland are still bankrupt and Ireland is in receipt of a large EU bailout....Hardly poster children for an independent Scotland.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by jeffw]
Perhaps all the people in the UK who lost everything when the Icelandic banks collapsed can get a job there to rebuild their savings then.
quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
Salmond keeps quoting Icelandic countries as role models for independence but he never mentions how much more expensive everything is there, it's £9 for a pint in Norway. Ireland does not have a Poundland it has a Twopoundland (or 2 Euro land). Thats what awaits an independent Scotland.
Everyone bangs on about oil but if there is a tax deficit when we have oil and there are only 35 years left it might sound like a long time but it's not enough to see out our lifetime never mind our kids. When the oil runs out and we are reduced to shale mining then all of a sudden England will see itself as the country with the oil purely due to having the biggest land mass.
An overwhelming no vote should see off any future referendums for long enough, a narrow margin and you will be going through it all again in the near future.
The SNP will still champion more powers for Scotland, - Devo Max which has always been the safe option anyway.
[Edited on 26/8/14 by Scuzzle]
I think if Scotland gets independence then the Shetland Islands should demand independence straight afterwards. Now they could live very comfortably on revenue from 'their oil'.
quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
Perhaps all the people in the UK who lost everything when the Icelandic banks collapsed can get a job there to rebuild their savings then.
Again not true. Large numbers of local authorities/police authorities and local government pensions had money in Icelandic Banks which is gone
forever....somebody has to pay for this and the compensation to individuals and that someone is the Taxpayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9311_Icelandic_financial_crisis
Maybe Scotland should ask Iceland for a currency union.
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Again not true. Large numbers of local authorities/police authorities and local government pensions had money in Icelandic Banks which is gone forever....somebody has to pay for this and the compensation to individuals and that someone is the Taxpayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9311_Icelandic_financial_crisis
Maybe Scotland should ask Iceland for a currency union.
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
Amusingly the biggest bailouts where for Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS (which Lloyds where forced to buy without due diligence). So Royal Bank of
Scotland and Bank of Scotland where the two biggest recipients of state funds.
Did you want either back once the SNP default on Scotland share of the national debt when they don't get currency union?
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Maybe Scotland should ask Iceland for a currency union.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Amusingly the biggest bailouts where for Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS (which Lloyds where forced to buy without due diligence). So Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland where the two biggest recipients of state funds.
Did you want either back once the SNP default on Scotland share of the national debt when they don't get currency union?
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
Actually, funny you should mention that. I did win big over the weekend, £2.90 !
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Maybe Scotland should ask Iceland for a currency union.
no thanks - all there coins have pictures of fish on them
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Maybe Scotland should ask Iceland for a currency union.
no thanks - all there coins have pictures of fish on them
Didn't know that....kinda works though.
hahahaha....I have some Lira you could use to get yourselves started, couple of thousand I think
I have the answer.....The Scottish Groat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groat_(coin)
Personally I believe that 90% of the voters in Scotland and the casually interested in England have very little idea about the side effects to both
economies if Scotland break away. I think that 90% of the yes voters will be ill informed english haters who know nothing about economics.
They will vote with their hearts not their heads. Not the best basis for a fledging country. In my opinion of course.
[Edited on 27/8/14 by Irony]
I'm sure you can say the same thing about every general election.
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Personally I believe that 90% of the voters in Scotland and the casually interested in England have very little idea about the side effects to both economies if Scotland break away. I think that 90% of the yes voters will be ill informed english haters who know nothing about economics.
They will vote with their hearts not their heads. Not the best basis for a fledging country. In my opinion of course.
[Edited on 27/8/14 by Irony]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Amusingly the biggest bailouts where for Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS (which Lloyds where forced to buy without due diligence). So Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland where the two biggest recipients of state funds.
Did you want either back once the SNP default on Scotland share of the national debt when they don't get currency union?
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Amusingly the biggest bailouts where for Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS (which Lloyds where forced to buy without due diligence). So Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland where the two biggest recipients of state funds.
Did you want either back once the SNP default on Scotland share of the national debt when they don't get currency union?
[Edited on 27/8/14 by jeffw]
Have any statements been made about what would happen to RBS if Scotland left the UK? As I understand it they would have to move there head office to the England because of where most of there trading is done by EU law. If any one else has a better understanding of this I am interested to know.
Also would the Scottish government have to pay buy the bank from the UK government or would the loss be split or some other solution?
More wishful thinking by the Yes campaigner. Fast-track EU membership....yeah right.
RBS will be re-branded as NatWest (which the majority of it is really) and the head-office for that is already in the City of London. I think
you'll find the name RBS quietly disappearing as damaged brand. Bank of Scotland has already been consumed by Halifax which was then sold (as
HBOS) to Lloyds TSB Plc in a fire sale. A lot of what was HBOS and TSB has no been floated off from Lloyds Banking Group to form TSB.
The markets will have this lot for breakfast. Very silly thing to be saying.
"The Scottish government minister told a BBC referendum debate if the UK seized all the assets of the currency it must also take all the
liabilities.".
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The markets will have this lot for breakfast. Very silly thing to be saying.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The remaining members of the UK will have lost a sizeable asset in Scotland if there's a 'yes' vote.
Never you mind this trivial matter Sam... get yourself over to my trike suspension thread, It's FAR more important!
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The remaining members of the UK will have lost a sizeable asset in Scotland if there's a 'yes' vote.
An 'asset' that's losing (depending on whose figures you believe) somewhere between £8.6 billion and £19.3 billion per year, and is heading in a direction to lose lots more.
I think I'll stick with my ISA, thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
More wishful thinking by the Yes campaigner. Fast-track EU membership....yeah right.
RBS will be re-branded as NatWest (which the majority of it is really) and the head-office for that is already in the City of London. I think you'll find the name RBS quietly disappearing as damaged brand. Bank of Scotland has already been consumed by Halifax which was then sold (as HBOS) to Lloyds TSB Plc in a fire sale. A lot of what was HBOS and TSB has no been floated off from Lloyds Banking Group to form TSB.
I wrote out a long rebuttal to Davie and Scootz points but, frankly, I can't be arsed.
If you lot want to go, get on with it. You amount to 8% or so of the UK by population so it isn't going to impact the rest of us much. The UK
Government has already told the markets it will cover all the debt in the event of a Scottish default so there will be little or no impact to the UK
market position.
UK Government says no to currency union as does all the political leaders in the UK, SNP says there will be....roll the dice and we will see.
I'm finding this an interesting discussion. Please can we keep sarcasm out of it, if only so that I can learn something new when the point is explained.
And the reason for the union in the first place was.....?
As I mentioned elsewhere, I hope it doesn't happen but there will be silver linings if it does.
ATB
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Sam you are being disingenuous
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Sam you are being disingenuous
I was actually being tongue-in-cheek, but there's a serious point, of course...
Scotland's economy is a small fraction of the size of that of the rest of the UK.
At the moment it's losing a mere £13 billion or so a year, but even if you could turn that around, you're never going to be contributing significantly to the UK economy, over all, and the situation will only get worse as the oil and gas revenues run down. As discussed earlier every western country except Norway is running a deficit.
The current figures for deficit as a percentage of GDP are as near the same as makes no real difference (you've again, understandably, picked the most favourable figures to support your own argument), so to the rest of the UK, it's not going to make a whole hell of a lot of difference whether you stay or you go. Anybody who is taking any serious interest will know that I have used the figures which are the closest representation of an independent Scotland which is representative of what the UK would lose.
You seem to be missing (or conveniently ignoring) two fundamental problems, though:
1) Where government services and bureaucracies are concerned, there are certain economies of scale. If you find yourself in a system with 1/10th the GDP you're part of now, you won't be able to cut your public sector costs by anything like the same proportion. Given the freedom to go all socialist worker as well, without that nasty, evil, right-wing UK Government to moderate you, you'll almost certainly find that public sector spending will spiral out of all control, but that's a different argument. Even if you just try to maintain the status quo, in the long term, either your services will need to be cut dramatically, or your taxes will need to go up dramatically to pay for the reduced efficiency.I've never claimed to be an economist so I can't prove or disprove your claim that bigger institutions are more efficient, in my experience the opposite is usually the case, as organisations expand bureaucracy increases. It is interesting to note that many of the richest countries (GDP per capita) in the world are small European countries, which would lead me to believe that being smaller isn't an automatic disadvantage. As I stated earlier I have no intimate knowledge of the effect of institution size versus efficiency, my beliefs are based on nothing more than observation and logic.
2) It's been said earlier on this thread that it's in neither of our interests to stop playing together, independence or not, because Scotland and the UK are each other's biggest trading partners. Except that's not quite true, is it? England is Scotland's biggest trading partner, representing over 70% of your GDP. But Scotland represents only 10% of the GDP of the rest of the UK.
In other words, Scottish independence will have a negative effect for both our economies (that's why the 'no' campaign is running under the 'Better Together' banner), but it'll hurt Scotland a f**k of a lot more than it hurts England. Is there a definitive reason why trade will change significantly?
If you want to go, then go; if that's the way you feel, then good luck, but good riddance.
You'll be cutting off your face to leave yourself with a spited nose...
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
As discussed earlier every western country except Norway is running a deficit.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Anybody who is taking any serious interest will know that I have used the figures which are the closest representation of an independent Scotland which is representative of what the UK would lose.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
I can't prove or disprove your claim that bigger institutions are more efficient, in my experience the opposite is usually the case, as organisations expand bureaucracy increases.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Nobody disputes that the majority of western countries are running a deficit at the moment, and nobody but an idiot would suggest that it's anything but a bad thing; one which we should be trying to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
The suggestion was that Scotland is an 'asset' to the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
I agree entirely, unfortunately the British government don't share our sentiments.
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Are you suggesting that it isn't?