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Permitted development, has my local planning officer got it wrong?
smart51 - 4/12/15 at 01:24 PM

We're in the middle of biying a new house, which we're planning to extend. I've submitted a pre-planning application to the council and the local planning officer has come back with some advice. Much of it I agree with. Some I reluctantly accept. But there's one part where I think she's got it wrong. Do any of you know how the rules are correctly applied?

The house as build has a kitchen that extends backwards by 0.5m more than the dining room. We want to knock the kitchen and dining room through into one room. The Mrs wants to extend the dining room backwards by 0.5m to match the kitchen to give a square room when knocked through. The planning officer said this is not Permitted Development as it extends off the side wall of the kitchen citing rule A.2 (b)

"development is not permitted by Class A if— (b) the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse would extend beyond a wall forming a side elevation of the original dwellinghouse"

Now if the house had a flat rear wall, we could extend by 3m backwards across the whole width. But because of the rule she cites, we can't fill in the corner (3m x 0.5m). Is she right?

SJ - 4/12/15 at 01:52 PM

I always understood the elevation in this context to mean the closest wall to the boundary.

I think the planning officer has got it wrong.

andyace - 4/12/15 at 02:02 PM

Does your house fall into this category then ??

"This section of the rules sets out additional restrictions for National Parks, the
Broads, areas of outstanding natural beauty, conservation areas, and land within
World Heritage Sites"

If so then it does state that "extensions beyond any side wall are not permitted development in these
areas "

Section A.1 (h) defines a side elevation as ANY side wall.

I guess it could be that as it's a protected area the original design of that side wall was positioned to not obscure some view !!??!

I would just speak to them to see if some compromise can be reached, they may just be being awkward !!

See http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf

smart51 - 4/12/15 at 02:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by andyace
Does your house fall into this category then ??

"This section of the rules sets out additional restrictions for National Parks, the Broads, areas of outstanding natural beauty, conservation areas, and land within World Heritage Sites" If so then it does state that "extensions beyond any side wall are not permitted development in these areas "

Section A.1 (h) defines a side elevation as ANY side wall.


The house is not in a special area. It is a semi in a suburb. The planning officer has agreed that the side extension and a loft conversion are permitted development. She said the porch would need planning permission and I agree with her reasoning. But the red section in the attached drawing is the bit we can't agree on.

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
I always understood the elevation in this context to mean the closest wall to the boundary.

I think the planning officer has got it wrong.


That is my understanding too.


GroundFloor
GroundFloor

loggyboy - 4/12/15 at 02:39 PM

Assuming your getting pre application advice to put an application in anyway so does it matter?
If your not putting an application in then just put one in! your only talking a couple of hundred quid for an application so in comparison the build costs its nothing!

smart51 - 4/12/15 at 03:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Assuming your getting pre application advice to put an application in anyway so does it matter?
If your not putting an application in then just put one in! your only talking a couple of hundred quid for an application so in comparison the build costs its nothing!


We've been told that any planning application including a loft conversion will be rejected by the council. But loft conversions fall under Permitted Development so we can have one, so long as we stick to PD rules. The planning officer strongly recommends doing the loft conversion first, then applying for planning permission for the any work.

The whole roof will need to be removed, for a couple of reasons. So we won't be living in the house while the loft conversion, side extension and internal works are being done. The front porch and external insulation will need planning permission and we will apply, once the other work is finished. The second batch of work is all external so we can live in the house while it is done.

I don't want to have to rip a hole in the dining room to do the little rear extension having only just knocked the room through into the kitchen. So I want the planners to agree that the rear extension is PD and can be done in the first batch of work.

Jon Ison - 4/12/15 at 07:32 PM

tell me if I'm out of order but with that amount of work planned have you considered moving to a larger property?

smart51 - 4/12/15 at 07:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
tell me if I'm out of order but with that amount of work planned have you considered moving to a larger property?


The starting price for 4 bed houses round here is £50k more than buying a 3 bed house and doing all this work. If you want a choice of 4 bed houses, you're looking at £100k more.

Toys2 - 4/12/15 at 08:38 PM

Is the blue part an original wall or part of a subsequent modification? I ask as I believe that many of the rules apply to the original house. Regardless of if any developments had planning permission

My house used to be an outbuilding for a farmhouse that is listed, mine was converted into a house about 20 years ago (badly by farmers!!!)
but because it originally was in the same development of a listed building, it means my house is listed

We recently swapped our windows - hardwood for hardwood, but slightly changed (improved) the design, no overall size changes just a fewer number of larger panes. The original cheap windows were put in by the farmers, they didn't match the original plans. However I had to get planning permission and listed building consent, provide maps, a "historical impact statement,"design and access statements" and a load of other crap
3 years earlier, I phoned the council saying that I wanted to build a conservatory, I sent them outline plans, they came back to me saying no permissions required - go figure!!

smart51 - 4/12/15 at 08:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Toys2
Is the blue part an original wall or part of a subsequent modification? I ask as I believe that many of the rules apply to the original house. Regardless of if any developments had planning permission.


The blue part is original. The green has been accepted as permitted development. The red is the disputed part.

nick205 - 4/12/15 at 10:33 PM

My experience has shown that a number of developers forgo PD on houses in order to get away with building them. My advice would be to check the details and tread carefully. There are lots of reasons why bigger houses cost more!

gregs - 4/12/15 at 10:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by Toys2
Is the blue part an original wall or part of a subsequent modification? I ask as I believe that many of the rules apply to the original house. Regardless of if any developments had planning permission.


The blue part is original. The green has been accepted as permitted development. The red is the disputed part.


Rule refers to land covered by article 2(3) ie:
conservation areas
Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty
National Parks
the Broads
World Heritage Sites

Assuming you're not in these you're fine - BUT - im not sure you'd get past the following as it looks like you're running along the boundary - can't advise as mine is detached.

"the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse would be within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, and the height of the eaves of the enlarged part would exceed 3 metres;"

Greg

carpmart - 5/12/15 at 11:45 AM

Just be careful whatever you do, nearly got badly caught out on permitted development.

Sam_68 - 5/12/15 at 01:55 PM

There's a straightforward and simple 'proper' way to resolve the issue:

1) Sack whoever is handling your planning application at the moment.
2) Engage someone who actually knows their arse from their elbow.
3) Apply for a 'Certificate of Lawful Development' (this essentially forces the Planning Department to take a formal judgement on whether the work constitutes Permitted Development). If granted, it covers your ass for the future, including the legals if and when you come to sell the property.
4) If the LDC is refused, appeal it. The Appeals Inspectorate very seldom makes mistakes in interpretation of Planning Law, so if your Planning Officer's decision is incorrect, it WILL be overturned.

If you're sure of your ground, it's not a bad idea to politely mention to the Planning Officer when you submit the application for the LDC that you WILL be taking it to appeal if you don't get the answer you think is correct; it focuses their mind on the potential paperwork, costs to the council and embarrassment to themselves if they don't think about it properly.

Costs of pursuing an LDC are not dissimilar to just going for Planning Permission, so if you're at all unsure of whether the work constitutes PD (or some elements of it do, and some don't), then replace item 3) with 'apply for Planning Permission', and have done with it. They can't refuse Planning Permissions for no good reason.

smart51 - 5/12/15 at 07:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
3) Apply for a 'Certificate of Lawful Development' (this essentially forces the Planning Department to take a formal judgement on whether the work constitutes Permitted Development). If granted, it covers your ass for the future, including the legals if and when you come to sell the property.


I hadn't heard of this before. At £86 it seems like a wise investment. As the district planning officer is likely to be doing both the preplanning advice and the certification, I'll make the application after she's agreed to my plans. Or after she's refused to agree. I'll then appeal her formal rejection if it comes to it.

Sam_68 - 5/12/15 at 08:01 PM

One further bit of advice:

If you're going forward with the possibility/likeihood of an appeal at the end of it, you'd be well advised to engage a competent specialist; the usual 'plans drawers' of the sort who advertise their services in the local papers are not likely to be able to hack it. Planning law and appeal procedure is complex, so some young lad drawing up plans on the side for a bit of extra beer money, or a semi-retired architect/draftsman doing odd jobs to keep his hand in may not be good enough.

You may ultimately need someone who is familiar with both local and national Planning policy and the Appeals procedure, and it helps if they've been involved from the outset.

... but at the very least, ensure that you do absolutely everything strictly by the book, and document every single item of correspondence/e-mail/phone call as and when it happens (with phone calls or face-to-face meetings, e-mail back a confirmation of all key items agreed/discussed, so they cannot later be easily disputed or denied).