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Author: Subject: Tune a 2 Ltr Pinto or Swap the engine?
sonic

posted on 22/8/16 at 09:47 PM Reply With Quote
Tune a 2 Ltr Pinto or Swap the engine?

Hi Guy's

I am thinking of my winter project

I have a very nice MK Indy fitted with a freshly rebuilt but std 2 ltr Pinto, I have fitted R1 bike carbs to it.

The question is

A/ Do I take the head off and fit big valves / cam etc

Or
B/ Do an engine swap, but to what, Zetec, bike engine ???

My heart says stick with the Pinto and play with it as everything is there, my head says swap the engine

This wont happen until the bad weather comes and the car is wrapped up for winter

Suggestions welcome

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joneh

posted on 23/8/16 at 06:35 AM Reply With Quote
I think if you go Pinto to Zetec your exhaust will swap sides, so Duratec is worth considering. Having said that, I'm a fan of the old engines as they're easier to play with for those of us that aren't mechanics by trade.

If you've got the space and funds get your new engine running on a stand before making the swap. Last thing I'd want to do is miss driving time if there's a delay.

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mcerd1

posted on 23/8/16 at 07:47 AM Reply With Quote
^^ I'd stick with the pinto - but I'm biased

a lumpy cam would only need a minimal amount of work to fit and would give you fairly big gains over the stock one

sorting the port shapes would be next on the list - fit some bronze valve guides, a little reshaping in a few key areas and some 3 angle valve seats would let you make a bit more out of the cam
and while your at it you can increases the compression ratio a bit depending on the fuel you want to use as the stock CR is only 9.2:1 - you can skim the head, deck the block, use thin gaskets or any combination of these (finding any definitive answer on what CR is safe is a nightmare, but don't go as crazy as I did..... the des hammill book reckons 10:1 should be pretty safe for RON95 depending on the cam etc and the book is normally quite conservative)

you don't have to do big valves as a first step - but they will be the next step and any porting would need re-done to suit them



having said all that I did love the revvy nature of the 1.8 blacktop zetec in my old focus - it was vey willing and addictive for a bog standard tin-top
the duratec the new tin-top is just disappointing compared to it despite the 10 extra hp but I guess that's partly down to the emissions / economy rubbish that's attached to it....



[Edited on 23/8/2016 by mcerd1]





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SJ

posted on 23/8/16 at 07:48 AM Reply With Quote
For me there would be no question. Swap for a modern engine such as a Duratech.
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nick205

posted on 23/8/16 at 08:43 AM Reply With Quote
I fitted a freshly rebuilt, but standard 2.0 Pinto to my MK Indy. Whilst tuning an engine can be rewarding I'd go for a swap to a Duratec and get more power that way. As above I believe the inlet/outlets are same side on a Duratec as on a Pinto so that may help minimise the cost and complexity.






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40inches

posted on 23/8/16 at 08:43 AM Reply With Quote
Check out the relative costs, I believe the Duratech conversion could be a couple of thousand, a bike conversion around a grand, without reverse. So perhaps a Zetec may be the middle ground?
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theduck

posted on 23/8/16 at 08:50 AM Reply With Quote
Partly depends on how much you want to spend and what power you want to end up with. I spent a little over 600 on my turbocharging my pinto and now have over 150bhp (I need to go back to dyno to get an up to date figure). I also have head room for more as I'm currently only running around 5psi, but need to fit a megasquirt and wideband to do so safely.
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SJ

posted on 23/8/16 at 09:00 AM Reply With Quote
Depends how high tech you want to go.

The R1 carbs will work on a Duratech with a different manifold (200?). The Pinto exhaust could be made to fit with a bit of modification. That leaves ignition, which is about 200, then bellhousing and clutch etc. (300?).

That leaves the engine and set up, so should be doable for just over a grand..

You then have lots of potential for the future if you want more power.

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Andy D

posted on 23/8/16 at 09:08 AM Reply With Quote
I'm running a 170bhp Pinto and I love it. ;-) It's done about eight years of track only, and it appears has blown a head gasket at Donington last weekend. I'll do the head gasket job, but I think anything more major.. eg a broken rod, holed block etc, I'd have to think about an engine swap.
I have a secret desire to build a 200bhp Pinto just for the hell of it, but a 200bhp Duratec is probably a lump cheaper to do.

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MP3C

posted on 23/8/16 at 10:57 AM Reply With Quote
I upgraded my pinto and got around 150bhp from it. Was really good fun to start with but couldent keep up in sprint events to other kit cars with newer engines. So im swapping it to a vauxhall z20let engine. Wish I had done it origionally.

Matt

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russbost

posted on 23/8/16 at 11:48 AM Reply With Quote
You've not said what the main use of the car is, ie fast road, touring or track, or a bit of everything.

Unless it's for track use I would say stay with the Pinto, the only thing really wrong with it is that it is heavy, that said, I don't know how much lighter a Zetec is & saving weight elsewhere could also give significant performance gains

Personally I have never understood the attraction of the Zetec, it is far from straightforward to fit to a 7 as there was never an inline version of it & as said, manifolds are on opposite sides.

The Duratec is a brilliant engine, but I think the estimates given above to swap are somewhat optimistic unless you are knowledgeable, have plenty of time & are well equipped to do everything yourself

If going bike engined, you can do it on the cheap & go for a ZZR1100, or one of the Suzuki carbed lumps, early Yam's tended to eat gearboxes in cars as I recall & the Blackbird eats conrods/big ends when put inline without changes to the oil system. Or throw lots of money at it & go for a 'Busa or ZZR1400, tho' personally I think either of those are overkill in a car as light as the 7 & engine not over the driven wheels, but I know plenty will disagree with that!





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ash_hammond

posted on 23/8/16 at 11:51 AM Reply With Quote
2 years ago i made the same decision.

Chopped out the old pinto on twin 40's with a cam, went MX5 turbo > 200hp.

Never looked back.







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mcerd1

posted on 23/8/16 at 01:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Personally I have never understood the attraction of the Zetec, it is far from straightforward to fit to a 7 as there was never an inline version of it & as said, manifolds are on opposite sides.

it might not be the most straightforward swap in the world, but it is basically just bolt on modifications with nearly all of the parts coming out of the parts bin rather than bespoke ones like the duratec needs

also its cheaper than the duratec in the first place

[Edited on 23/8/2016 by mcerd1]





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SJ

posted on 23/8/16 at 01:43 PM Reply With Quote
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Personally I have never understood the attraction of the Zetec, it is far from straightforward to fit to a 7 as there was never an inline version of it & as said, manifolds are on opposite sides.

it might not be the most straightforward swap in the world, but it is basically just bolt on modifications with nearly all of the parts coming out of the parts bin rather than bespoke ones like the duratec needs

also its cheaper than the duratec in the first place

[Edited on 23/8/2016 by mcerd1]




Absolutely - Cheap 150ish BHP and a decent strong modern engine, if a bit heavy. Bolts straight to a Type 9, easy to chop steel sump and cheap as chips.

Having said that if I was changing I'd be going for a bike engine.

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russbost

posted on 23/8/16 at 04:47 PM Reply With Quote
SJ, I think you & mcerd1 are somewhat missing the point.

You're talking about getting around 150bhp cheaply out of a Zetec, but he already has a Pinto which can very easily be cheaply tuned to 150Bhp without going to the trouble or expense of an engine swap.

You both say fitting the Zetec is simple, I've never done it as I don't generally work on 7's, but for a start the inlet & exhaust are on opposite sides, that HAS to create some issues along the way (not least of which being a dirty great hole left in the bodywork!!!), you can modify the exhaust headers & chop the sump, well, yes, you can if you're a good welder, I would say the chances of anyone who isn't a fairly good welder managing a sump chop without leaks is pretty slim, does the OP even have a welder & the ability to weld (to say nothing of what you do if you get a Zetec with an ally sump). What are you going to use to fuel the Zetec? The bike carbs he has won't just fit straight on & will almost certainly need rejetting. How are you going to control the ignition on the Zetec, I'm guessing the Pinto is still on a dizzy rather than megajolt as it's not mentioned, so I would assume an aftermarket system like megajolt or similar is required?

I seem to remember there are issues with the direction of rotation of water pump on some Zetecs & many modern ones will have aircon pumps to be removed & therefore auxillary belt route will change.

Then there is the wiring - I know a lot of decent engineers who will run a mile as soon as electrics are mentioned, & I'm pretty sure that the wiring required for a basic engine like the Pinto is going to be a bit more involved on the Zetec.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure many people have done it & been pleased with what they've got for their money, but without knowing just how capable the OP is (& if he already knew all the answers he wouldn't be asking the Q would he?) it's not fair to just say, yeah, go on, slap a Zetec in, cheap as chips & take 5 minutes!!

Also, one of you mentioned that the Duratec requires more specialist parts, well, yes it might, but that's not a direct comparison, because you can get probably 30% more horses out of a Duratec & it's substantially lighter, whereas getting loads more horses than a sensibly tuned Pinto using a Zetec lump isn't going to be easy or cheap.

I actually think a swap for an older bike engine like the ZZR1100 would be simpler, cheaper & vastly more effective for than the Zetec, at least the wiring needed for the ZZR1100 is already there as it's pretty much the same as that required for the Pinto!

A better option might be the Mazda, but I know absolutely nothing about what fits & what doesn't!

All my own personal opinion of course & I'm probably barking up the wrong tree!





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sonic

posted on 23/8/16 at 08:37 PM Reply With Quote
Hi All

Thank you for your views and comprehensive replies, I do have a lot of mechanical knowledge and very capable of working the spanners, I can weld but have no access to a welder.

The car is really only used for the road, I may do the odd trackday next year but to be honest I like to keep my cars mint and don't really thrash them. it would be nice to have a bit more ummph.

I had the carbs setup at Bogg bros and Dave said it was producing just over 100 bhp at the wheels, I would like to keep the Pinto as somebody else said they are old school, my thoughts were to fit an FR32 cam but if I have to take the head off to fit it I may as well have the head worked on, looking at the costs of the head work or buying a head already done they seem very costly.

Thus why I asked the original question of is it worth spending 600 - 800 on the head for what gain or putting the money into an engine swap.

Thanks
Mick

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Dusty

posted on 23/8/16 at 10:15 PM Reply With Quote
I went pinto - silvertop - blacktop - ST170. The pinto was loud, rough, involving and felt fast with 120bhp. The silvertop and blacktop were more powerful but smooth and unexciting and just dull. Much faster yes but somehow dull. With the pinto you knew you were doing 100. With the zetecs you found you were doing 100 when you hadn't intended to or wanted to but somehow less exciting. They didn't feel fast.
The ST is just like the zetecs but with an increased terror factor thrown in.
For fun and involvement for the road I would go back to the pinto.

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