FASTdan
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 09:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Are you seriously thinking that fitting an S2000 engine will cost you less than the same bhp Duratec? 
Even at the 240bhp level (which is just throttle bodies, cams and better rods/pistons) it'll set you back less than 2/3rds the cost of a stock
S2000 engine....
LOL I was reading through this thread wondering when someone was finally going to point that out!
Duratec's not even in the same ball park cost-wise as the S2000.
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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hughpinder
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 10:19 AM |
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Just for interest, the 'fully dressed' wts that I have including inlet manifold, clutch and flywheels, for all standard parts are:
2.0 duratec ~121kg
k series rover ~ 96.5
S2000 ~158 kg
Toyota vvti 1.9 137kg
Regards
Hugh
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bmseven
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 10:58 AM |
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Have you considered the Volvo T4 4 pot 200bhp as standard and fitted to the S40 & V40's
The earlier 1.9 B4192 is the stronger engine with internals as stock being able to handle 300+bhp which with a bigger turbo and injectors is easily
achievable. Complete cars for not a lot of money (I have 2) Later cars used a 2.0 engine same bhp but not considered to be as strong
BMW 7 Resource
Bures Pit anyone?
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rodgling
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 11:16 AM |
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FWIW, a friend has a tuned T5 in a Volvo 850. The upper limits for power are pretty high - not sure what he's currently getting but I think
it's something in the 4-500 bhp range, more than enough for a 7. Also, it sounds fantastic with a custom exhaust, loads more character than an
inline 4. I could think of worse engines for a 7.
The M3 is a very nice choice too, but it's quite big. However it can certainly be made to work.
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Nickp
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 11:43 AM |
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quote:
Unfortunatly im using a locost chassis. donno if an m3 will go... but I love the engine. ive had a few e36 m3s and never failed.
I'm fitting a BMW all alloy M52 6 pot to my Haynes at the moment, and it fits just!! In 2.8 guise these'll make 240bhp with just an inlet
manifold swap from an earlier M50 325i. It's essentially the same engine as the M3 and can even use M3 cams etc to take it up to 260-280bhp.
They already come with a gearbox pointing in the right direction, and mine cost £150 with everything on it 
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 11:56 AM |
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Both engines are great parts donors
I've got the turbo from a T5, and the injectors from an s2000.
The injectors will run out of flow before the turbo runs out of puff.
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chris mason
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 01:46 PM |
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iirc, back in 2005 my S2000 engine weighed in at 147kgs fully built up, clutch, flywheel, inlet manifold, alternator etc
The gearbox was a further 47kgs, so thereabouts 194kgs iirc
Not light by any means, but a 1600cc mx5 set up was only lighter by a shade under 30kgs.
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kensprin
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Are you seriously thinking that fitting an S2000 engine will cost you less than the same bhp Duratec?
Even at the 240bhp level (which is just throttle bodies, cams and better rods/pistons) it'll set you back less than 2/3rds the cost of a stock
S2000 engine....
I've seen fully mapped and ready run duratecs priced at 10k thats tuned to 260hp. you can pick st170 cheap tho. bbut it will take another lot
of parts and dosh to tune it, then map it.
Using the S2000 240hp 3k max with standard inlet manifold and stock ecu will be cheaper comes with a box too man enuf.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 03:14 PM |
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Yes but you are looking at new crate cossie engines at that price.
You are talking to the wrong person about duratecs obviously... my supercharged duratec cost under £2.5k...including fully forged internals
Do it yourself 240bhp duratec would be under £1.5k including engine management.
Engines can be had for under £200 now, leaving a lot of money for tuning.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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franky
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 03:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Unfortunatly im using a locost chassis. donno if an m3 will go... but I love the engine. ive had a few e36 m3s and never failed.
I'm fitting a BMW all alloy M52 6 pot to my Haynes at the moment, and it fits just!! In 2.8 guise these'll make 240bhp with just an inlet
manifold swap from an earlier M50 325i. It's essentially the same engine as the M3 and can even use M3 cams etc to take it up to 260-280bhp.
They already come with a gearbox pointing in the right direction, and mine cost £150 with everything on it
A m52 is not the same as an m3 lump. You're getting confused with a US m3 which was just a 328 with cams etc.
A 328i will make 220bhp with just intake mods for under £400 with box+ecu. 240bhp with cams and a remap.
If you can get an engine that will run on its standard ECU then you'll save even more as ecu's aren't cheap and neither is mapping.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 04:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kensprin
Using the S2000 240hp 3k max with standard inlet manifold and stock ecu will be cheaper comes with a box too man enuf.
Duratecs can come with a box man enough, they were fitted as standard on the 2007- Mk3 Mx5's available in 5 and 6 speed.
Does the F20 not also require dry dumping to get it in?.. another few £000's to factor into the costs.
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Nickp
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 05:31 PM |
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quote:
A m52 is not the same as an m3 lump. You're getting confused with a US m3 which was just a 328 with cams etc.
I'm no expert (but am learning) but from what I understand they are very similar, blocks heads etc. The M52 obviously went alloy blocked (saving
about 30kg apparently) so the M3 lump is more like a bored/stroked M50. I just think M3'ing (with cams, throttle bodies etc) a 2.8 M52 would
make a cracking motor for a 'Seven'. Part of my reasoning for choosing the M52 was that if I get bored than the M3 motor will pretty much
drop in
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 06:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
Does the F20 not also require dry dumping to get it in?.. another few £000's to factor into the costs.
A few thousand pounds to dry sump an F20C? Surely that can't be right?
quote:
Originally posted by orton1966
What about the Civic Type R engine, I cant remember the engine code but power (and max rev’s) is similar to the S2000 engine.
I know the S2000 has the advantage of being fitted North South but the Civic engine can be converted. I don’t know the stat’s but I believe it might
be slightly more compact/lighter, probably a little cheaper and could be used with a lighter, more compact gearbox to save further weight.
It can be converted, though it won't bolt up to the S2000 box without an adapter plate. It's quite amazing how many differences there are
between the engines, you'd have thought it would have made sense to make as many parts as possible common.
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chris mason
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 06:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
Does the F20 not also require dry dumping to get it in?.. another few £000's to factor into the costs.
A few thousand pounds to dry sump an F20C? Surely that can't be right?
I spent around 2k Dry sumping my old S2000, that's not too say it can't be done cheaper, but the RED dry sump and pace pump was around
£1200 iirc with the vat and then there's the annodised -12 and -10 fittings at £30+ each (used about 10) plus the braided -12 -10 hose too,
plus a quality tank too and it soon adds up.
Although that was 6 years ago, so i'm sure there's more too choose from by now and at cheaper prices.
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kensprin
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 07:09 PM |
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Dose the F20c need dry sumping? all depending on the top clearance and mounting height
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 07:11 PM |
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They are bloody tall engines, definately need drysumping in a seven, unless you want to mount them very high or have no ground clearance.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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kensprin
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| posted on 24/10/11 at 07:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Yes but you are looking at new crate cossie engines at that price.
You are talking to the wrong person about duratecs obviously... my supercharged duratec cost under £2.5k...including fully forged internals
Do it yourself 240bhp duratec would be under £1.5k including engine management.
Engines can be had for under £200 now, leaving a lot of money for tuning.
Cheers for the input.
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PeteS2k
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| posted on 25/10/11 at 07:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
They are bloody tall engines, definately need drysumping in a seven, unless you want to mount them very high or have no ground clearance.
F20C engine doesn't require dry sumping to fit in a seven. It is a tall engine, so you may need a bonnet bulge, depending on the design of the
kit. Dry sumping may save a little bit of clearance, but not a lot, as the bell-housing hangs quite low, and quickly becomes the low point. The low
part of the sump sits up front, close to the front wheels, so gets lifted well clear of most obstacles like speed humps as you drive over them.
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franky
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| posted on 25/10/11 at 08:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
A m52 is not the same as an m3 lump. You're getting confused with a US m3 which was just a 328 with cams etc.
I'm no expert (but am learning) but from what I understand they are very similar, blocks heads etc. The M52 obviously went alloy blocked (saving
about 30kg apparently) so the M3 lump is more like a bored/stroked M50. I just think M3'ing (with cams, throttle bodies etc) a 2.8 M52 would
make a cracking motor for a 'Seven'. Part of my reasoning for choosing the M52 was that if I get bored than the M3 motor will pretty much
drop in
You're thinking about the USA spec M3's. The Euro m3's were a totally different design by the 'M' division. Euro
ITB's/cams wont' work in a m52, zero parts are interchangeable.
If you get on some of the BMW forums you might be able to get American spec m3 stuff which will fit your engine. The 30kg is a good saving though.
To be honest a 328 engine must be the best engine/box combo around as you can get 220bhp for £350 or less.
Great engine choice
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/10/11 at 08:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
A m52 is not the same as an m3 lump. You're getting confused with a US m3 which was just a 328 with cams etc.
I'm no expert (but am learning) but from what I understand they are very similar, blocks heads etc. The M52 obviously went alloy blocked (saving
about 30kg apparently) so the M3 lump is more like a bored/stroked M50. I just think M3'ing (with cams, throttle bodies etc) a 2.8 M52 would
make a cracking motor for a 'Seven'. Part of my reasoning for choosing the M52 was that if I get bored than the M3 motor will pretty much
drop in
You're thinking about the USA spec M3's. The Euro m3's were a totally different design by the 'M' division. Euro
ITB's/cams wont' work in a m52, zero parts are interchangeable.
If you get on some of the BMW forums you might be able to get American spec m3 stuff which will fit your engine. The 30kg is a good saving though.
To be honest a 328 engine must be the best engine/box combo around as you can get 220bhp for £350 or less.
Great engine choice
Oh, it's all very complicated this BM 6pot bussiness!!
It's easy to agree that a M52B28 is an excellent choice for performance per pound though 
For £250 here - http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/34/viewthread.php?tid=162267
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kensprin
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 05:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteS2k
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
They are bloody tall engines, definately need drysumping in a seven, unless you want to mount them very high or have no ground clearance.
F20C engine doesn't require dry sumping to fit in a seven. It is a tall engine, so you may need a bonnet bulge, depending on the design of the
kit. Dry sumping may save a little bit of clearance, but not a lot, as the bell-housing hangs quite low, and quickly becomes the low point. The low
part of the sump sits up front, close to the front wheels, so gets lifted well clear of most obstacles like speed humps as you drive over them.
Thanks Pete,
Have you got the Stock ECU in you rush?
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PeteS2k
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 06:36 PM |
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I'm using a DTA S60Pro. I had originally planned on using the stock ECU, but ultimately decided the cost vs. hassle balance for me swung towards
aftermarket! There's a fair bit of loom juggling and unused circuits and sensors to take account of using the stock ECU, but it is do-able,
and the info is out there...
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franky
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 08:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
A m52 is not the same as an m3 lump. You're getting confused with a US m3 which was just a 328 with cams etc.
I'm no expert (but am learning) but from what I understand they are very similar, blocks heads etc. The M52 obviously went alloy blocked (saving
about 30kg apparently) so the M3 lump is more like a bored/stroked M50. I just think M3'ing (with cams, throttle bodies etc) a 2.8 M52 would
make a cracking motor for a 'Seven'. Part of my reasoning for choosing the M52 was that if I get bored than the M3 motor will pretty much
drop in
You're thinking about the USA spec M3's. The Euro m3's were a totally different design by the 'M' division. Euro
ITB's/cams wont' work in a m52, zero parts are interchangeable.
If you get on some of the BMW forums you might be able to get American spec m3 stuff which will fit your engine. The 30kg is a good saving though.
To be honest a 328 engine must be the best engine/box combo around as you can get 220bhp for £350 or less.
Great engine choice
Oh, it's all very complicated this BM 6pot bussiness!!
It's easy to agree that a M52B28 is an excellent choice for performance per pound though
For £250 here - http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/34/viewthread.php?tid=162267
Bang for £££ I can't see how you can beat them.
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jeffw
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 08:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Are you seriously thinking that fitting an S2000 engine will cost you less than the same bhp Duratec?
Even at the 240bhp level (which is just throttle bodies, cams and better rods/pistons) it'll set you back less than 2/3rds the cost of a stock
S2000 engine....
I can't make this work for me
Engine £200
Duratec Rods & Pistons £900
Sump & Bellhousing £500 (Raceline)
Cams £300+
Throttle Bodies £1K if Jenvey
2nd Hand S2000 engine £2K
Or am I missing something ?
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flak monkey
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 09:06 PM |
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Depends how much you want to use your ingenuity and patience. Parts come up for sale on ebay all the time...
Things have really changed so much, everyone just wants to buy new parts now, when you can get similar results for a lot less if you are happy to pick
up a grinder and welder.
St150 engine - £200 comes with suitable flywheel.
Clutch to suit - £100
Bellhousing - £100 S/H. If you can weld and cut straight with an angry grinder I can get you plans for your own sump. Or a laser cut kit to weld
up.
Bike throttle bodies - £50-100 depending on what you want (you dont need injectors). Will give the same results as using jenveys, just not as neat.
Anyway a set of Jenveys would never set you back £1k, more likely £650.
Inlet manifold - make your own from laser cut plate and tube. Cost < £30
Rods and pistons - if you import them from the usa will cost under £400. Secondhand bet on around £200.
Cams - £300 - no choice unless you want a second hand set.
All depends how much you want to/can do yourself....
You could just have bigger valve reliefs cut into the standard pistons, then you could retain them and the rods, as both are OK for street use at
those power levels.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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