franky
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 09:09 PM |
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Don't forget to add mapping costs and the fact you're running a tuned engine not one designed to make silly bhp for 100,000+ Miles.
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SeanStone
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| posted on 26/10/11 at 10:24 PM |
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Obviously I'm going to vouch for the s2k
I am dreaming of the day when im approaching 9k rpm, hearing it come on cam
I'm not so sure that it can be raised to 10k rpm, that is a huge amount of mean piston speed increase. Maybe up to 9,300, but i'd be very
interested to be told otherwise!
They can take a s/c on standard internals all the way to at least 350hp at the wheels and the box is good for 500hp
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Bare
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 02:16 AM |
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C'mon all this pub talk
klookit This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkhcMzp9EA8&feature=BFa&list=PL4A5E1465A79DFFA9&lf=results_main
Arguably the fastest production 7 on the planet....100+- Kg power unit .. complete
And it's a real 7 :-) not a diy in the shed effort, fitted with some 6 cyl pig iron special.
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jeffw
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 05:36 AM |
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Bet Duncan's Dax is faster...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzLMBMbCYUk
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franky
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 05:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bare
C'mon all this pub talk
klookit This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkhcMzp9EA8&feature=BFa&list=PL4A5E1465A79DFFA9&lf=results_main
Arguably the fastest production 7 on the planet....100+- Kg power unit .. complete
And it's a real 7 :-) not a diy in the shed effort, fitted with some 6 cyl pig iron special.
I don't know of any 7's fitted with a pig iron special
All 7's are make in a shed of some description.
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jeffw
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 05:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Depends how much you want to use your ingenuity and patience. Parts come up for sale on ebay all the time...
Things have really changed so much, everyone just wants to buy new parts now, when you can get similar results for a lot less if you are happy to pick
up a grinder and welder.
St150 engine - £200 comes with suitable flywheel.
Clutch to suit - £100
Bellhousing - £100 S/H. If you can weld and cut straight with an angry grinder I can get you plans for your own sump. Or a laser cut kit to weld
up.
Bike throttle bodies - £50-100 depending on what you want (you dont need injectors). Will give the same results as using jenveys, just not as neat.
Anyway a set of Jenveys would never set you back £1k, more likely £650.
Inlet manifold - make your own from laser cut plate and tube. Cost < £30
Rods and pistons - if you import them from the usa will cost under £400. Secondhand bet on around £200.
Cams - £300 - no choice unless you want a second hand set.
All depends how much you want to/can do yourself....
You could just have bigger valve reliefs cut into the standard pistons, then you could retain them and the rods, as both are OK for street use at
those power levels.
Those prices are based on the ability to weld....which I can't (currently). Also you would need various gaskets, big end shells and so on when
you strip the engine to put new rods in (something else I would need a pro to do). The Jenvey cost included the throttle cable set-up, manifold &
injectors/fuel-rail which comes to around the 1K mark.
If I had your skills and facilities I wouldn't be thinking about changing my Zetec to a F20C but would be Supercharging it. But for me the
costs of Supercharging the Zetec to make 260-270BHP and the cost of putting in a F20C are pretty much the same if you factor in the selling of what I
have currently.
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DH2
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 08:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Arguably the fastest production 7 on the planet....100+- Kg power unit .. complete
And it's a real 7 :-) not a diy in the shed effort, fitted with some 6 cyl pig iron special.
Errrm, yeah, right, ok...
DH2
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Nickp
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| posted on 27/10/11 at 09:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DH2
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Arguably the fastest production 7 on the planet....100+- Kg power unit .. complete
And it's a real 7 :-) not a diy in the shed effort, fitted with some 6 cyl pig iron special.
Errrm, yeah, right, ok...
DH2
Yeah I thought it was a strange comment too, on a forum full of people building 'efforts in sheds'. I'm sure there's a forum
out there for people with more money than car building skills 
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daniel mason
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| posted on 29/10/11 at 09:54 AM |
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Been reading this thread with great interest this week and just struggling to understand where some people get their information from?
I am obviously biased towards the honda motor as I think the high revving high power is good in a 7, but Its not the lightest out there, I agree. The
Volvo,Saab or BMW engines would probably have more potential power wise for a reasonable cost as a rotrex s/c setup on the f20c is not cheap.
I would say a dry sump set up like chris masons would be a good option if you intend on doing any serious track days,especially on slicks! But where
these people are getting there info from regarding size is a mystery to me? Mine is on the standard Honda engine mounts with more ground clearance u
der sump than my previous bike engined kit (yamaha R1) and the bonnet fits on no problem without a scoop.
If you need any info on where to find a good donor give me a shout. I got a side impacted cat d 2003 car with 25k for £3k and sold loads of bits to
help fund the build. The expensive parts are things like exhaust,ecu and dash clocks/ gauges etc. As an aftermarket ecu can lower the v-tec giving
much more torque lower down the rev range. I've had mine lowered to around 4200 rpm.
[Edited on 29/10/11 by daniel mason]
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atomic
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 10:09 AM |
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Having been I believe the second person on the UK (after Blink Motorsport) to drop a F20C engine into a 7-type, I think if I was looking at doing it
again I would use a K20A out of a Type-R instead. They are much cheaper and very much easier to tune, many more parts available and from a much larger
range of manufacturers with just about every part being something like 1/3rd less expensive when compared to the F20C.
You would find it easy to use the oem ecu (unlike the F20), which would save you a significant sum. Speak to ADR-Engineering and get one of their
bellhousings (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/photos/hondak20bellhousingEWtjqjth.jpg) and use your existing box (Note: you may have to change the
Diff's CWP to a more suitable ratio).
While I would advocate the use of a Drysump you could always get a Canton Accusump.
With the F20C you will need to confirm that the oil jet bolts are the 4 hole variety and not the two as these can lead to oil starvation issues. (Four
new 4 hole oil jet bolts will set you back £100)
Now whilst the K20 does not rev as high as the F20 it does produce more torque and can easily be taken to 300bhp with only minor mods. It used sleeved
cylinder bores so piston choice is huge (unlike the F20 which uses FRM and is therfore only compatible with either oem or Mahle Gold pistons, plus
honing a FRM bore it a very specialist and costly job). One area I would recommend you look at for either the F20 or K20 would be to change the valve
spring retainers for Toolsteel ones. They are a know issue with the F20 whereby they crack. Toolsteel retainers are about the same weight as Titanium
but do not suffer from the associated galling. They are often changed in the K20 to provide a higher safety margin.
The pro's of the K20 very much outweigh the cons in my opinion when comparing it to the F20C.
[Edited on 30/12/11 by atomic]
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daniel mason
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 11:42 AM |
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Surely if you can get a decent s2000 cat d donor it will be cheaper than buying seperate items for the k20?
I got: all steering including ignition,engine start,indicator and lighting stalks,engine,box,diff,drive shafts,propshaft,handbrake,
and sold the rest of the car. And as you say parts are worth good money, especially electric roof and seats
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 12:00 PM |
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ill not offer anything ......................
t5 engine is about 150 kgs in weight , but youll have associated plumbing with the intercooler to think about .
a simple remap and youll be on 280 hp , no more than that tho unless you change the injectors .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Rocket_Rabbit
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 01:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atomic
Having been I believe the second person on the UK (after Blink Motorsport) to drop a F20C engine into a 7-type, I think if I was looking at doing it
again I would use a K20A out of a Type-R instead. They are much cheaper and very much easier to tune, many more parts available and from a much larger
range of manufacturers with just about every part being something like 1/3rd less expensive when compared to the F20C.
You would find it easy to use the oem ecu (unlike the F20), which would save you a significant sum. Speak to ADR-Engineering and get one of their
bellhousings (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/photos/hondak20bellhousingEWtjqjth.jpg) and use your existing box (Note: you may have to change the
Diff's CWP to a more suitable ratio).
While I would advocate the use of a Drysump you could always get a Canton Accusump.
With the F20C you will need to confirm that the oil jet bolts are the 4 hole variety and not the two as these can lead to oil starvation issues. (Four
new 4 hole oil jet bolts will set you back £100)
Now whilst the K20 does not rev as high as the F20 it does produce more torque and can easily be taken to 300bhp with only minor mods. It used sleeved
cylinder bores so piston choice is huge (unlike the F20 which uses FRM and is therfore only compatible with either oem or Mahle Gold pistons, plus
honing a FRM bore it a very specialist and costly job). One area I would recommend you look at for either the F20 or K20 would be to change the valve
spring retainers for Toolsteel ones. They are a know issue with the F20 whereby they crack. Toolsteel retainers are about the same weight as Titanium
but do not suffer from the associated galling. They are often changed in the K20 to provide a higher safety margin.
The pro's of the K20 very much outweigh the cons in my opinion when comparing it to the F20C.
K20 being taken to 300bhp with only minor mods?! :lol: Keep dreaming!
The F20C is far superior to the K20, mainly in terms of it's strength.
The weak point of the pre 2004 motors is the retainers as you say. They are good for 9000rpm, but not a jot more.
They are cracked from over-revving which is something that is quite easy to do with the slick gearbox.
2004 retainers will cover you to 9500 no problem
If you get a JDM F20, you have 11.7:1 comp ratio. You only need to change the cams, retainers, valve springs and ECU to see 280bhp. Add to it ITBs
and you'll get a good boost of power from 4500rpm to 8000rpm and maybe another 5-10bhp peak.
K series is weak compared to the F20.
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atomic
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 02:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
quote:
Originally posted by atomic
Having been I believe the second person on the UK (after Blink Motorsport) to drop a F20C engine into a 7-type, I think if I was looking at doing it
again I would use a K20A out of a Type-R instead. They are much cheaper and very much easier to tune, many more parts available and from a much larger
range of manufacturers with just about every part being something like 1/3rd less expensive when compared to the F20C.
You would find it easy to use the oem ecu (unlike the F20), which would save you a significant sum. Speak to ADR-Engineering and get one of their
bellhousings (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/photos/hondak20bellhousingEWtjqjth.jpg) and use your existing box (Note: you may have to change the
Diff's CWP to a more suitable ratio).
While I would advocate the use of a Drysump you could always get a Canton Accusump.
With the F20C you will need to confirm that the oil jet bolts are the 4 hole variety and not the two as these can lead to oil starvation issues. (Four
new 4 hole oil jet bolts will set you back £100)
Now whilst the K20 does not rev as high as the F20 it does produce more torque and can easily be taken to 300bhp with only minor mods. It used sleeved
cylinder bores so piston choice is huge (unlike the F20 which uses FRM and is therfore only compatible with either oem or Mahle Gold pistons, plus
honing a FRM bore it a very specialist and costly job). One area I would recommend you look at for either the F20 or K20 would be to change the valve
spring retainers for Toolsteel ones. They are a know issue with the F20 whereby they crack. Toolsteel retainers are about the same weight as Titanium
but do not suffer from the associated galling. They are often changed in the K20 to provide a higher safety margin.
The pro's of the K20 very much outweigh the cons in my opinion when comparing it to the F20C.
K20 being taken to 300bhp with only minor mods?! :lol: Keep dreaming!
The F20C is far superior to the K20, mainly in terms of it's strength.
The weak point of the pre 2004 motors is the retainers as you say. They are good for 9000rpm, but not a jot more.
They are cracked from over-revving which is something that is quite easy to do with the slick gearbox.
2004 retainers will cover you to 9500 no problem
If you get a JDM F20, you have 11.7:1 comp ratio. You only need to change the cams, retainers, valve springs and ECU to see 280bhp. Add to it ITBs
and you'll get a good boost of power from 4500rpm to 8000rpm and maybe another 5-10bhp peak.
K series is weak compared to the F20.
Utter dribble..
F20C is not superior to the K20 in terms of strength. Whilst the F20C does include Forged rods and pistons as standard (and sodium-filled inconel
valves) the block itself is not superior. K20 does require new pistons (of which the choice is vast unlike the F20) to really reach a reliable 300 but
nothing more for reliability.
You can see 60+ bhp from using a standalone with the K20, you'll never see anywhere near that figure with the F20C. We have a K20A running a EFI
Technology Euro4 right now with a homologated map and on the SF902 which is making 261. Some minor headwork and new pistons will see that 280+ add
cams and the figures take a big leap and all without ITB's. There maybe a little more to come when we swap over to the Pectel SQ6 which will be
running this setup in the end, but that remains to be seen.
Have you weighed the 2004 retainers and compared then to the <2003. They are significantly heavier. We've seen 2004> retainers which we
know have not suffered from any type of over rev show signs of cracking, personally wouldn't trust them, not when you can change them out for
ones which are lighter and superior resistance to cracking/strength.
"You only need to change the cams, retainers, valve springs and ECU to see 280bhp" yeah and have you done the sums to this little lot.
Decent ECU will set you back £1K retail (min to do it right) plus dyno time. One of the best if not the best ECU to use currently for this type of
setup is the Life Racing F42 and that retails around £950 + Loom. Springs and retainers £300, cams £500+ and have you any experience of these..I have
and can say that there really aren't any worth bothering with for the F20C. The Brian Crower ST2/ST3..err not really impressed and the Hytech,
only seen the dyno plots and they look okay but very, very expensive. It's all starting to add up. So far you’re in for a min of 2K for a 40bhp
increase. K20A will see 40+bhp alone from dropping the vtec to 5100 and better still to 4700 which we like. Cam's for the K20A are a very
different matter to the F20C, K20's are showing some very good gains.
K20A...a smarter buy.
For sh1ts and giggles this is the spec of my personal F20C
AEBS Sleeves
Omega Pistons @ 12.5:1 CR
Arrow Precision H-Beam Rods
Honda Bearings
A1 Technologies Headstuds
Race Engine Design Dry Sump Kit
Cowsworth .38mm Head Gasket
PAC Beehive Valve Springs & Custom Toolsteel retainers
NIMONIC 90 Exhaust Valves
EV8 Intake Valves
Custom Headwork
Toda VTec Killer Cams
ATPower Throttle Bodies
Pectel SQ6
Denso 550cc Injectors
Weldon 600A HP Fuel Pump
Fuelab FPR & Filters
Race Engine Design Bellhousing
Drenth DG400 Heavy Duty Sequential 6-speed Gearbox
[Edited on 30/12/11 by atomic]
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Nickp
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 08:39 AM |
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navyseamonkey2011
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| posted on 21/11/12 at 11:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
I think the high revving relatively low torque Honda is better suited to a light weight sportscar. Bet the engine gearbox combo is a lot lighter than
the Volvo too.
What about a one cylinder Yanmar diesel engine???
Dan you got the S2000 motor sorted?
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