Bike engined car or 2.0L zetec or are they close
now youve done it , just you wait 
zetec of course ,
no it would be bike engined
[Edited on 18/1/07 by rjs]
0 - 30, the zetec is faster than a carbed R1 in an otherwise identical car, then you have to change gear with the zetec. By the the time you've
engaged 2nd, the R1 has matched your speed and by the time you reach 40, they're neck and neck. The r1 is accelerating faster and will reach 60
a second or more before the zetec. As both cars get faster the R1 will leave the zetec behind by an increasing margin as it has more power to
overcome drag.
Tune your zetec up by a reasonable ammount and you'll pull a bigger lead in 1st gear. It will take the R1 more time to catch up. You need more
power in your zetec than the equivelent bike to match it in acceleration, but then you'll have a slightly higher top speed.
A stock 2.0 Zetec has 135 BHP IIRC. 1.0 Bike engines have 140-150 BHP if they're old or 170-180 if they're new. All will have a few BHP
more if fitted with a straight through silencer, foam filter and suitable remap / rejet.
The cost of your zetec + carbs or EFI plus tuning upto enough power to match an R1 would cost quite a bit more than an R1 installation. You then get
quieter cruising and a free reverse gear. You pay's you money...
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by smart51]
Faster how?
Top speed or acceleration?
Or to put it another way- CEC or BEC
oh no, cue BEC v CEC fun
Here we go again
Rescued attachment images.jpg
I don't agree that a zetec installation costs more than an R1.
You can't get an R1 motor for much less than a grand yet you can pick a whole Mondeo up for £50, add on bike carbs and megajolt and your nowhere
near 1K
Interestingly the argument takes on another dimension with current R1 engine prices...
Engines are fetching about £500 at the moment which puts zetec and pinto tuning into perspective.
Puts tuning up old CBR engines into perspective aswell!
Geoff
It's got to be the BEC 
Well, providing that you can a) get the power down and b) get off the line without stalling
You can almost put money on, that some of the old guard will be along promptly telling you which is best.......
I may be old but I'm biased too!
0-60 3.48 secs...That would be a "Busa" BEC
I think if I could get a sequential gearbox affordably for a CEC I would go Nissan or Volvo Turbo.
In South Africa used Busa motors are around 3000 Pounds if you can get them so are not a possibility unless your budget counts for nothing 
For that you can get a fully modified (and reasonably reliable - about 20 000K between rebuilds if you don't over rev it) Mazda turbo rotary
putting out anything between 350 - 450 hp depending on boost button chosen. Lets see a BEC keep up with that!
Someone mention carbed R1. What about injection?
I thought 0-60 times on an R1 Bec were around 3.5-4 seconds. Can the Zetec really be faster?
My next project is an R1 injection. I bought a 700 mile engine for £1800.
These £500 engines must be pretty high mileage and possibly need replacing often?
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
I don't agree that a zetec installation costs more than an R1.
You can't get an R1 motor for much less than a grand yet you can pick a whole Mondeo up for £50, add on bike carbs and megajolt and your nowhere near 1K
Anyone who's thinks of asking the age old question should first get a ride in someones car.
I had a drive in a zetec car first, while good fun, not my cup of after being a biker.
But then came the BEC, although not as fast as my bike, I'd never accellerated in a car that fast. I had to have one. But as Chris says,
it's a f*cking nuisance in traffic.
hmmmm, far too vague a question to answer, which I think is how the answers have gone.
If you are specifically saying zetec, not "car engine" then performance per pound a bike engine is a better bet.
Yes a zetec can be made quicker than most bike engine cars including busas, but you will have to spend more than busa money on it to do it.
I don't understand why some people try to imply everything is an argument, this is a light hearted discussion about BEC v CEC, that's it,
end of story.
Some prefer BEC and some prefer CEC but nothing wrong with a bit of friendly banter.
Couldn't agree more, better to discuss the merits of BEC vs CEC's than doing any work this morning
Here is a graph I made a few weeks ago comparing a standard 2.0 zetec against a standard 1998 R1 in otherwise identical cars. It assumes 3.62 diffs,
195/50/15 tyres, the same aerodynamics, the same weight other than engine/gearbox and takes true account of drag, rolling resistance and tranmission
losses. Given that, I don't claim 100% accuracy.
Rescued attachment acc.GIF
You haven't taken into account engine and gearbox weight?
Surely, this will make a big difference?
(I am not calling you Surely ! )
Perhaps 50kg difference?
quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
thats an interesting comparison Smart, from experience though, the r1's i've seen have struggled to get to 100 in 12 seconds as for the zetec iirc they were about 95 in 15 seconds.
The zetec is 70kg heavier in my calculations.
Here is a graph of a tuned zetec giving 190 BHP. This was simulated by adding 32% to all the torque calculations. The R1 makes 148 BHP. I've
corrected a few things in the calulations like wheel diameter, tyre stickiness and transmission loss in an attempt to improve the accuracy of the
model.
Rescued attachment acc_3.GIF
Relavant news on totalkitcar.com
http://www.totalkitcar.com/news.php
New 2-litre Focus-spec Zetec Engines from GTS Tuning……..via their Zetecpower website, for just £881.25 inc VAT when bought with one of their range of
installation/upgrade kits. Running on carbs these engines produce around 160bhp and on fuel injection around 170bhp, with upgrade kits also available.
...a full engine package for carbs with lowline cast aluminium sump, water rail, inlet manifold, alternator mounts and idler system is just £1995
including the engine
...For new builds the injection package with ECU, throttle bodies and wiring loom in addition to the parts listed above, comes in at £3519 inc VAT
in answer to the question an r1 bec would destroy a zetec car even with a few mods..
So is my zx9r locost going to be faster than my mate's xe powered one?
unless he starts to tune it, in which case, you need nos.
Smart51, any chance of you being bothered to do the same graph as distance versus time? To see which should actually have the lead?
quote:
I remember a few years back at Donington Park having a little bit of fun with a BEC Blade.
Looking at that second graph it shows the BEC changing into second at about 52-53mph.
I thought a BEC would do 60 in first which was why they got there so quick.
Interesting figures though as I hope to get around 190-200bhp next winter with the second set of upgrades.
As for the answer, obviously BEC is best, sorry that should read second best .
A BEC may be faster acceleration but which would be faster is real term driving speeds, ie between 40 and 80 for overtaking.
I fancy a BEC for trackdays but would not consider one for extended driving and long journeys like Le Mans.
quote:
Originally posted by hicost
I remember a few years back at Donington Park having a little bit of fun with a BEC Blade.
Both cars had two people in we nearly lapped the blade in 5 laps.
Now before the other driver arrives, this was a bit of fun on the day, in the days of camping BBQ's and loud music all weekend.
He will also state he had shite tyres.
He will be along soon.
Sad sod I am check out this five, yes five year old thread..............
Those where the days.........
If i remember right it was almost a free donington track day for jon and james,a limelight blunder that the lads took full advantage of
quote:
Originally posted by bob
If i remember right it was almost a free donington track day for jon and james,a limelight blunder that the lads took full advantage of
, truth is to this
day I don't know how we got round it in one piece.......... quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Smart51, any chance of you being bothered to do the same graph as distance versus time? To see which should actually have the lead?
Hi i think that the only way to settle all this is to have a locost builders track day at some point.
But seriously it would be good to get a whole load of the forum and cars together for a day of fun.
cheers matt
Ok next round.
Yep matts right,it would be good to see who got it right and who needs a tow.
I'm sure somehere could be booked out for a day if not a weekend,food for thought.
You can only learn from a meet like that.
Yup, and run a handicap on cc and £'s spent on motor ??
End of story, BEC wins............
Aye, anything under 1.2 gets a head start for only having a little engine! Money spent would certainly screw a few of the becs up though, as Dilley
spent a silly amount on his! £7k IIRC! Just glad I'm happy with mine as it is.
A whole weekend locost trackfest, now that would be something, bring it on
Originally posted by bob
I'm sure somehere could be booked out for a day if not a weekend,food for thought.
Hi could possibly mob book an already organised trackday of some sort.
But i can see the dissisions over where when being as big as the bec v cec argument it's self.
All though this has got to happen at some point with all the members on here who have running cars and all the members who would like to know how
what they are building might perform once finished.
cheers matt
Cadwell park, sometime in summer, BBQ n party on the night of the event, not the night before......
Wake up next day, run into skeggy for fish n chips and blast up the prom.......
Just a suggestion.
Hi right i have started a discusion in a new thread uneder clubs/events to see what the interest might be and where it might lead.
Will delete if people want to let it run here. others may wish for the cec v bec debeate to run on here without distraction .
cheers matt
OK, back too CEC v BEC, i have used this quote from an RGB race report before but it tells a story surely ??
Before the RGBs went out the Roadsports Championship had their qualifying session. The Roadsports Championship is an eclectic mix of sports cars,
including Nobles, Porsches, a Morgan +8, a TVR Tuscan etc. At the front of the grid the cars will be costing well in excess of £50,000, and yet the
pole winner (Noble) wouldn’t have made the top three in RGB! Furthermore, the third quickest Roadsports runner in a Noble M12 would have qualified
fifteenth in RGB!
This does illustrate just how quick the RGB cars are, and whilst no one will ever say motorsport is cheap, the RGB Championship does represent
incredibly quick and competitive racing for the money.
quote:
Originally posted by TangoMan
Looking at that second graph it shows the BEC changing into second at about 52-53mph.
Quarter mile results from York last year should give some indication. Afterall, most people can drive quickly in a straight line.
Apart from the big HP car engines, the BECs finished ahead of the CECs.
Introduce corners on a trackday and driving ability would have a massive influence on the results, although I suspect the BECs would be even more
dominant.
11.727 NOS Blackbird BEC
12.123 Nissan 200SX CEC
12.138 Honda S2000 CEC
12.523 ZX12R BEC
12.900 GSXR1000 K2 BEC
13.128 ZX9R BEC
13.274 Fazer 1000 BEC
13.280 954 Blade BEC
13.522 893 Blade BEC
13.555 893 Blade BEC
13.557 R1 BEC
14.131 ZX9R BEC
14.140 Tuned Pinto CEC
14.494 893 Blade BEC
14.675 Tuned Pinto CEC
14.740 2.0 Zetec CEC
14.803 1.6 Toyota CEC
15.260 Pinto CEC
So to answer the question..... BEC everytime
Phil
The top graph shows the std zetec versus the std carbed R1 in metres versus seconds. You can see that the Zetec pulls an initial lead but after 30m,
the R1 has pulled back. The second graph is the same but zoomed in on the upper corner of the graph. 408 metres = 1/4 mile. 12 seconds in, the r1
has a 50 metre lead.
Rescued attachment acc dist.GIF
For completeness, I thought I'd add graphs of the tuned 190BHP Zetec vs a typical BEC R1 tuned by 5% to 155BHP. The lines are so close as to
show nothing.
The data shows that the 190 BHP zetec will pull a 2.5 metre lead buy 30 MPH / 1.7 seconds. The R1 will pull that back to zero at 52 MPH at 2.8s. 12.4
seconds in, the R1 BEC will reach 1/4 mile at 108 MPH and will have a 12m lead over the zetec. about 20 seconds after starting, the BEC will top out
at 120 MPH with the tuned zetec just 5m behind. The zetec will probably reach 130 MPH.
I guess that proves once and for all that CECs are faster than BECs if you can afford to tune up to the required power - a 200 BHP zetec will match a
basic R1 BEC.
The BEC vs CEC arguement comes down to this for me:
The free pinto in your donor cannot be beaten on cost. A cheap zetec installation is better for not much more.
Mid priced engines (circa £1K) A BEC is faster - much faster, and louder and probably better at braking and cornering than a similarly priced CEC,
though not as good at reversing or cruising.
An expensive engne should hopefully be enormously fast, CEC or BEC. The relative merits of tuned Busas, Turboed R1s, supercharged Duratecs and
blueprinted V8s are hard to compare. I think this is a true statement:
If you want cheap - CEC
If you want fast - BEC
If you want the fastest, quietest, most practical power train - get your cheque book out.
Smart51,
What vehicle weights, including driver and passenger, did you use for the model in the comparison?
610kg for the BEC including driver, 680kg for the Zetec. My BEC with all it's boot box and heavy sierra bits and padded seats, with me in it and
a crash helmet and a full tank of fuel and a big bag of tools weighs 610 kg. I guessed that a zetec and type 9 would be 70 kg more.
[Edited on 22-1-2007 by smart51]