Steve Hignett
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 12:11 PM |
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A previous post went up asking for a Poll reply to the Manufacturers in General and their Best features.
In that thread, I felt (and commented) that it would be easier to point out worst features as it may be more accurate and subjective...
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 12:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
caterham are still using dedion in all bar the CSR. hardly pushing the engineering boundaries there!
Are you trolling with this statement?
I think your idea of an internet Troll is slightly squewed.
In clarifiction of my comment- of the current Caterham line up only the CSR has IRS. Leaving the remainder using 19th century technology.
[Edited on 17/1/12 by loggyboy]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:11 PM |
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While not new tech, it doesn't mean it doesn't do the job nicely for a given situation. IC engines are old tech too don't forget - I
don't see many 7's using ion drives.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
While not new tech, it doesn't mean it doesn't do the job nicely for a given situation. IC engines are old tech too don't forget - I
don't see many 7's using ion drives.
IRS is not star trek tho is it!?
If every 2 pence kitcar manufacturer can produce a half decent IRS set up, Why can the big name not do it, or atleast not offer it on anything but the
40k top model. (unless SteveH has more info that he hinted on that they DO have more more widely avaiable IRS)
There is no denying, a well set up IRS WILL handle better than a well set up Dedion). It seems to me Caterham were sitting on their dominance and name
for quite a few years, and until the CSR. I would assume they are not fitting to to the 'lower' models as it lowers the exclusivity of the
CSR.
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DRCorsa
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:28 PM |
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Maybe most people think/feel (i don't say this is true or not) that a dedion Caterham is still faster than an IRS from another manufacturer?
[Edited on 17/1/12 by DRCorsa]
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mookaloid
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by eddie99
If a poll goes up, it will just tell you who has what car.
I mentioned 2 cars that I don't own - I don't think I have the best handling car 
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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fesycresy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:40 PM |
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This is a very interesting read:
dedion or irs
For handling, I'd have a Caterham over any car mentioned above, but I can't because I'm huge.
But I don't need the best car, because I am a driving GOD 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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whitestu
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 03:56 PM |
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quote:
For handling, I'd have a Caterham over any car mentioned above, but I can't because I'm huge.
+1
You don't have to be huge to be too big for a Caterham! My 9 year old would be OK but by the time he's 13 he'd have no chance! When
I drove one I felt like I'd fall out!
In my view Caterhams do handle nicely and the front end is really well set up, but they can be very tail happy.
Stu
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scootz
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 04:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
IRS is not star trek tho is it!?
If every 2 pence kitcar manufacturer can produce a half decent IRS set up, Why can the big name not do it, or at least not offer it on anything but
the 40k top model. (unless SteveH has more info that he hinted on that they DO have more more widely avaiable IRS).
There is no denying, a well set up IRS WILL handle better than a well set up Dedion). It seems to me Caterham were sitting on their dominance and name
for quite a few years, and until the CSR. I would assume they are not fitting to to the 'lower' models as it lowers the exclusivity of the
CSR.
That's the point though... most 2p manufacturers can't knock out a half decent IRS system. Most are sh*te, but hardly any of their
customers could tell the difference between a good one and a bad one!
Caterham threw a fair bit of money and testing at the CSR IRS, and yet the de-dion R500 is the faster race car.
Caterham have been in the business long enough to know how to make a car and they know what their customers want... a car that's as much fun to
poodle around on a Sunday afternoon as it is to hustle around a race-track. Their de-dion set-up does this perfectly well (and if you look at
track-times, they come in ahead of PLENTY of IRS cars).
It's Evolution Baby!
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scootz
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 04:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
quote:
For handling, I'd have a Caterham over any car mentioned above, but I can't because I'm huge.
+1
You don't have to be huge to be too big for a Caterham! My 9 year old would be OK but by the time he's 13 he'd have no chance! When
I drove one I felt like I'd fall out!
In my view Caterhams do handle nicely and the front end is really well set up, but they can be very tail happy.
Stu
+2
I bought mine from a guy in Lincolnshire and drove it back to Scotland. I've never been sat in a more snug cockpit! There wear no spare-space
ANYWHERE!
It's Evolution Baby!
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TimC
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 05:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by fesycresy
... I don't need the best car, because I am a driving GOD
Beer buys my silence.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 05:28 PM |
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quote:
IRS is not star trek tho is it!?
Neither are ion drives, they're currently in testing with NASA. The "problems" are the relatively low thrust outputs of them -
they're designed for one operating envelope, not others. But theyr'e cheap to run, for years of travel, unlike solid rocket boosters. Much
the same as the IRS/other options - IRS might work better mechanically but financially it costs more.
quote:
If every 2 pence kitcar manufacturer can produce a half decent IRS set up, Why can the big name not do it, or atleast not offer it on anything
but the 40k top model. (unless SteveH has more info that he hinted on that they DO have more more widely avaiable IRS) There is no denying, a well set
up IRS WILL handle better than a well set up Dedion). It seems to me Caterham were sitting on their dominance and name for quite a few years, and
until the CSR. I would assume they are not fitting to to the 'lower' models as it lowers the exclusivity of the CSR.
The point was that if a simpler older system works fine, costs less and deals with the vast majority of the usage requirements, why bother?
What's more, if it gives the top end car a sales advantage, a minor performance advantage at some extra cost, this also creates model
differentiation which means they can still sell their cheaper cars AND have a market for their better cars, for those that want the
"ultimate" offering.
It's horses for courses. Not everyone wants an IRS setup, either for complexity or cost, and not everyone would feel the benefit. If that allows
you to have a budget car at £XK and a top end car at £XK+10K then why on earth would you force the end user to swallow a price hike for something they
don't want?
[Edited on 17/1/12 by coyoteboy]
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scootz
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 06:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
IRS might work better mechanically but financially it costs more...
How so?
A properly designed de-dion tube, ears and the various linkages must cost about the same to produce as a pair of wishbones, and uprights.
It's Evolution Baby!
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JekRankin
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 06:57 PM |
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Tough question! Quality of engineering and good handling are not necessarily the same thing.
For example, the Fury is widely regarded to be a fine handling car when set-up well, but the design of the rear of the Sierra IRS chassis is not
fantastic in my opinion: the rear diff mount is not well triangulated and the lower wishbone brackets put the tubes onto which they're welded
under a lot of torsion.
These are a just a couple of design niggles off the top of my head, and its by no means a badly engineered car overall, but the engineering attention
to detail and quality on a Caterham seems to be quite a bit better – then again, the Fury will have been designed to be produced to a much lower cost
also, and the price of the kits reflects this.
If I could have afforded it, Caterham would have been my first choice (or a Procomp car if it was for racing use).
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 07:05 PM |
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quote:
How so? A properly designed de-dion tube, ears and the various linkages must cost about the same to produce as a pair of wishbones, and uprights.
Well, I'm no expert in the field but I've read a few books from those that are and they have all suggested it's a more pricey route
to take (not least from the design time needed to get it right). Done properly you are going to want proper bearings at every linkage point on an IRS
(doubleA), to get the most of the benefits it can provide, and thats clearly a large part of the cost. That said, I wasn't just suggesting
financial costs, but also looking at total masses etc "costs" in a general term.
Bloody spelling edits!
[Edited on 17/1/12 by coyoteboy]
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scootz
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 07:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
How so? A properly designed de-dion tube, ears and the various linkages must cost about the same to produce as a pair of wishbones, and uprights.
Well, I'm no expert in the field but I've read a few books from those that are and they have all suggested it's a more pricey route
to take (not least from the design time needed to get it right). Done properly you are going to want proper bearings at every linkage point on an IRS
(doubleA), to get the most of the benefits it can provide, and thats clearly a large part of the cost. That said, I wasn't just suggesting
financial costs, but also looking at total masses etc "costs" in a general term.
Bloody spelling edits!
Crikey... that's some spelling edit! It appears to have resulted in half of your post changing! 
It's Evolution Baby!
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franky
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 07:20 PM |
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There's a company who sometimes post on here who make the odd car when they're not advising on future F1 design concepts and helping out
Adrian Newey when he's having a difficult day. I'd seek them out for advice(off season).
Or buy a caterham and have a great car out of the box.
Or buy a kit and spend a lot of time and cash getting it set up properly so it can hold a candle to the very best from caterham etc on the road.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 07:58 PM |
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quote:
Crikey... that's some spelling edit! It appears to have resulted in half of your post changing!
Indeed, 3 edits later and I'd added another 90% content too! Quickfire responses lead to mis-communication it seems. I'm self policing
though
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 08:30 PM |
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Stiffening an MK chassis?
Easiest way would be build new from scratch, using accurate jigs, then putting in the necessary tubes which MK seem to think are superfluous.
And the plastic rear bulkhead???? What genius came up with that great piece of structural design? At least you'd know pretty quick when the
poorly mounted fuel tank had cracked loose and caught fire.
Cheers,
Nev.
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scootz
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| posted on 17/1/12 at 08:31 PM |
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It's Evolution Baby!
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 18/1/12 at 06:39 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Stiffening an MK chassis?
Easiest way would be build new from scratch, using accurate jigs, then putting in the necessary tubes which MK seem to think are superfluous.
And the plastic rear bulkhead???? What genius came up with that great piece of structural design? At least you'd know pretty quick when the
poorly mounted fuel tank had cracked loose and caught fire.
Cheers,
Nev.
posted on the wrong thread there, luv....
O, and thanks for the constructive comments.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 18/1/12 at 10:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
IRS might work better mechanically but financially it costs more...
How so?
A properly designed de-dion tube, ears and the various linkages must cost about the same to produce as a pair of wishbones, and uprights.
Dax used IRS for a while (and will still make you one if you pay for it) I'm not goint to say it was perfect, but it was god enough to win
races..
but they changed to De Dion partly due to the cost but also because a de dion is easierto setup right for some one building a car in there garage at
home
I was told they reconned the IRS was better, but round a nice smooth track the difference was so minimal it didn't justify the cost of the parts
and the extra setup time involved....
-
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JonBowden
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| posted on 18/1/12 at 01:00 PM |
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Ok, so Caterhams are best and a De-dion is about as good as IRS.
How do others compare?
Can anyone compare the Haynes Roadster with other locost cars?
Jon
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jeffw
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| posted on 18/1/12 at 02:06 PM |
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I was once told that live-axle/de dion where almost as good as a well set-up IRS car but there where a lot of badly set-up IRS cars. The guy who said
this drove a lot of different customers kit cars and was always concerned when he had to drive a customers IRS car for the first time, just in case it
was badly setup....no such problems with De-Dion or live-axle.
[Edited on 18/1/12 by jeffw]
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eddie99
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| posted on 18/1/12 at 03:17 PM |
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How i look at it: Dedion for smooth on track, IRS for road when there are imperfections, speed bumps etc.. Hence why my road car is IRS. Race car
Dedion.
Caterham do it for a reason.
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