On the type 9, it was just a thought that as a gearbox this already has either helical, semi helical or straight cur gears that you could use on the
end of your cranks/driveshaft to transmit the power (with lots of ratio alternatives), helical would reduce noise but may not be as strong.
Daft question, did you consider running one of the engines backwards, I know this has been done with the Honda B series vtec engine in the past which
turns anti clockwise IIRC so is difficult to use with longitudinal boxes (there is a mad one in a rally escort, video's on youtube)? Given you
are running a dry sump and electric water pump this may have been as simple as a cam swap ands then you could use a simpler gear system ?
Just some thoughts that are too late but I enjoy the lateral thinking process and seeing if my daft ideas are daft or not.
[Edited on 19/4/16 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
If you know someone who can weld ali then I am sure you can make up an adaptor to fit a starter on the rear of the audi/boxster transaxle.
Edit
Easier solution - Subaru Impreza greabox with the centre diff removed and a 2wd converter kit put in place (rear drive locking nut and rear blanking
plate), search SDR Storm WR3, this kit car uses this system and there is a company in AUS that do the same (about £250 for the kit IIRC).
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
quote:Originally posted by Ugg10
Many thanks for your time, much appreciated.
On the type 9, it was just a thought that as a gearbox this already has either helical, semi helical or straight cur gears that you could use on the
end of your cranks/driveshaft to transmit the power (with lots of ratio alternatives), helical would reduce noise but may not be as strong.
Daft question, did you consider running one of the engines backwards, I know this has been done with the Honda B series vtec engine in the past which
turns anti clockwise IIRC so is difficult to use with longitudinal boxes (there is a mad one in a rally escort, video's on youtube)? Given you
are running a dry sump and electric water pump this may have been as simple as a cam swap ands then you could use a simpler gear system ?
Just some thoughts that are too late but I enjoy the lateral thinking process and seeing if my daft ideas are daft or not.
[Edited on 19/4/16 by Ugg10]
It's nice to have somebody to discuss this all with, Most of my friends have lost interest after 4 years!
That makes sense, I did consider robbing some of the zx9 gears but there weren't any large enough to reduce the speed in the way I wanted. As
you say my straight cut gears are going to whine like hell, but I'll deal with that if it becomes unbearable. I have built in cooling jets which
run off of the main oil gallery as they are going to generate and transmit a lot of heat.
I did consider running one engine in reverse but I guess I knew I had to link them anyway so the idler seemed easier than redesigning cams and having
them produced.
Keep the questions/suggestions coming, it's been a lonely road for a while so great to have a reminder as to why I'm doing what I am and
why I've made the comprimises that I have,
If you know someone who can weld ali then I am sure you can make up an adaptor to fit a starter on the rear of the audi/boxster transaxle.
Edit
Easier solution - Subaru Impreza greabox with the centre diff removed and a 2wd converter kit put in place (rear drive locking nut and rear blanking
plate), search SDR Storm WR3, this kit car uses this system and there is a company in AUS that do the same (about £250 for the kit IIRC).
Thanks, my absolute dream would be to put this in a single seater/LMP type car with a lightweight transaxle. Until that point if I find a suitable car
to fit into I'd seriously consider a UN1 or Audi transaxle with modified bellhousing assuming it isn't too much work.
Since learning that the rx8 box will work I'm seriously tempted to buy a car with a knackered rotary engine and use that as my rolling road car/
running in car. I had a tiger avon which I was previously going to use, but project costs and the thought of having to IVA it before I could take it
out on the road seriously out me off. I would be worried about the weight of an rx8, as it would not be great for this type of engine, but as a means
to get some miles on it and dyno time it could be ideal.
Let's see what budget I have once I've got all the bits assembled.
I forgot to mention that I went to the Haynes museum in Saturday and saw this beast, such an inspiration. I was trying to explain to my girlfriend how
rare it was and the best comparison I could think of was 'it's like seeing a unicorn'! She wasn't convinced...
I have an rx8 6 speed box in the shed if you need anything measuring up. If you need a rough bell housing pattern I can always trace it on some card,
scan it in with a scale and send a picture through. General dimension are similar to a ford type 9 and the input shaft has ford diameter and splines
so pinto/Xflow/zetec clutches work.
Remember if you put it in an rx8 emissions will be as produced (rotary engine on v5) at mot time if you plan to put it on the road so will need cats
and injection.
Been thinking of other engines this may work for, as I mention, car NA engines don't seem to work out, but audi 1.8t or the new ford 1.0L
Ecoboost (shame it is direct injection to control) might be interesting, but heavy as they have steel blocks.
One thought was two Honda paneuropean v4 end to end with a long drive shaft down the vee. Still only a 2,2L v8 with 220hp, might as well have a 2.3
duratec.
So sports bikes it is, but don't need to tell you.
As for cars, occasionally the tiger hss come up for sale at reasonable prices, these had hewland transaxles, only good for the track though. There was
talk about the doing either the hss or the hs30 with the audi transaxle to cut costs.
[Edited on 19/4/16 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 19/4/16 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
quote:Originally posted by Ugg10
I have an rx8 6 speed box in the shed if you need anything measuring up. If you need a rough bell housing pattern I can always trace it on some card,
scan it in with a scale and send a picture through. General dimension are similar to a ford type 9 and the input shaft has ford diameter and splines
so pinto/Xflow/zetec clutches work.
Remember if you put it in an rx8 emissions will be as produced (rotary engine on v5) at mot time if you plan to put it on the road so will need cats
and injection.
Been thinking of other engines this may work for, as I mention, car NA engines don't seem to work out, but audi 1.8t or the new ford 1.0L
Ecoboost (shame it is direct injection to control) might be interesting, but heavy as they have steel blocks.
One thought was two Honda paneuropean v4 end to end with a long drive shaft down the vee. Still only a 2,2L v8 with 220hp, might as well have a 2.3
duratec.
So sports bikes it is, but don't need to tell you.
As for cars, occasionally the tiger hss come up for sale at reasonable prices, these had hewland transaxles, only good for the track though.
[Edited on 19/4/16 by Ugg10]
That's good news about the input shaft as I have a type 9 compatible clutch, I wonder if that is because of Mazdas work with ford on other
engines/cars?
If you wouldn't mind taking some dimensions when you have time that would be much appreciated, it would mean that I could pretty much have the
engine and bellhousing plate ready to roll, just rip the rotary engine out and crack on.
I hadn't even considered the emissions, I guess once I'm on a mappable ECU I could run a really lean map, or just half the bank of the V8
if needed just to get me through!
That bantam is cool, there was a Bugatti engine which was similar as mention by somebody earlier in the thread, and I believe that a company in New
Zealand did something similar before moving on to a single crank. (http://www.synergypower.co.nz/index.php/synergy-engine/#) I only came across them a
year ago and am not sure if they are still producing.
My best bet will be to find a manufacturer who is keen to develop a 'quick' version of their car, so I can loan them my engine, get some
decent press for both of us and then them offer the combined engine/car package and me hopefully get some credibility/sales from the project. In
reality I'd just like to fire it up and hear it Rev!
Where are you based? Would be good to see your Anglia project!
Been doing a bit of googling and had a few brain farts, be interested in your views on this twin bike setup.
So, start with two v-twins, aprilia rsvr Rotax or tl1000r (both around 140 hp), put them spocket to sprocket so they are facing opposite directions.
Inbetween the sprockets put one of these (or similar), possibly with cush drives between the sprocket and gears.
The output gear can then be fixed to the input of a standard diff (bmw e36 2.8, 2.9:1 ratio), plantary type transfer box can also have gearing if
needed. Maybe stick it all in one case and bolt to a frame hokding the engines and the transfer/diff.
There are a couple of autograss class 7 cars using this arrangement but with a chain drive between the two engines and the diff.
I don't think you can remove the sump on these twins like the zx9, leaving the full rotating assembly in tact, but if you could then you could
go down a similar route to you with a bespoke lower section.
No where near as elegant or compact as your solution but could be pretty cheap.
Now, if you could easily extend the drive shaft out of the engine casing the opposite side to the sprocket then you could have the two engines facing
the same way and then put a stock diff inbetween (engines driving the half shafts, output coming out of the prop flange), you then need a second diff
to drive the wheels, gearing between the two diffs could be interesting but this would be more compact.
Both of these not only have two engines but two gearboxes, gears could be sync'd using a powershiter.
[Edited on 20/4/16 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
Interestingly Tiger had a pretty well sorted setup from what I've heard, they held the world record for 0-60 at one point. I've always
wondered why they didn't continue with it, so can only assume there just isn't a market for it, or there is more money in selling 100
Zetec cars than one twin bike engine!
If I had my time again I'd be tempted to have done something like this, although I guess CAD wise it wouldn't have been some challenging.
Yep, the z100, the engines were almost behind eachother and connected to a diff/transfer box developed by zcars (sadly no longer trading) iirc. I
think this diff was more suffusticated as it could cope with each engine running different gears.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
Z100WR IIRC. This has the engines facing the forward and backward driving XR4x4/Cosworth diffs. Got a feeling they has some but of electrickery
between the two engine acting like a centre diff to make sure the engines did not fight each other too much.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
Superb! That would have cost me a fraction of what I have in my project!
I was thinking about it driving back from work today, and I suppose I've always wanted to build something like the Ford engine above, and
although mine is very different and doesn't have the God knows how many million budget, it'll look pretty cool once I've got eight
trumpets sucking in loads of air!
+1 on the trumpets, got my new (old) dcoe throttle bodies on last weekent plus full radius trumpets., the zetec SE like long runners.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
quote:Originally posted by Ugg10
+1 on the trumpets, got my new (old) dcoe throttle bodies on last weekent plus full radius trumpets., the zetec SE like long runners.
Picked up a sh omex 710 which I have wired up to do sequential injection if needed (cam sensor needed as well), it can also run a fully mapped vct.
Base map at the moment is running batch and off/on/off vct (search jenko on here, he got good results with this method with his zetec SE 1.7 in his
j15). Also plumbed in an innovate lc2 WB Lambda. Will get it mapped later.
This may be worth a read, guy putting in a bike engine v8 into his anglia, he helped me loads getting the ecu sorted, seems to know his stuff.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
quote:Originally posted by Ugg10
Picked up a sh omex 710 which I have wired up to do sequential injection if needed (cam sensor needed as well), it can also run a fully mapped vct.
Base map at the moment is running batch and off/on/off vct (search jenko on here, he got good results with this method with his zetec SE 1.7 in his
j15). Also plumbed in an innovate lc2 WB Lambda. Will get it mapped later.
This may be worth a read, guy putting in a bike engine v8 into his anglia, he helped me loads getting the ecu sorted, seems to know his stuff.
Quick update on the engine, have been messing around with the crank bearing caps. I had planned to get the whole assembly line bored but having taken
a few measurements I don't think I'm far off (0.02mm on a couple of bearings).
As I'm looking at £600 for the line boring I'm going to look at shimming the caps by the 0.02 and seeing what I get.
Please don't get me wrong in that I'm not looking to cut corners, it's just that if I can solve the issue for a few quid then
I've got a lot more to spend on other things (such as a mappable ECU or some forged Pistons! If I can't get the level of accuracy
I'm after then I'll have it all line bored anyway, but would feel stupid spending that kind of money without trying an alternative first.
I wanted to give a quick update regarding the project.
Currently the machining which is required is still scheduled for early July.
In the meantime I've got all the technical drawings and models finalised so ready to roll, most of the material is here so just counting down
the days.
I've also worked out that the mx5 or rx8 transmission will provide a rear mounted starter motor. This means that it won't foul the
cylinder heads, which the type 9 bellhousing does. I'm now thinking that when I'm ready for a dyno session I will look around for an MX5
with a knackered engine so I can stick my engine in there and hopefully be able to do a road test. It's not the lightweight car I'd have
liked to use, but should still be fairly lively.
In light of this I've sold my type 9 transmission, advertised the Sierra diff and a few other bits. This provides a bit more cash for the
project as well as space in the workshop.
quote:Originally posted by obr_technology
Good afternoon,
I wanted to give a quick update regarding the project.
Currently the machining which is required is still scheduled for early July.
In the meantime I've got all the technical drawings and models finalised so ready to roll, most of the material is here so just counting down
the days.
I've also worked out that the mx5 or rx8 transmission will provide a rear mounted starter motor. This means that it won't foul the
cylinder heads, which the type 9 bellhousing does. I'm now thinking that when I'm ready for a dyno session I will look around for an MX5
with a knackered engine so I can stick my engine in there and hopefully be able to do a road test. It's not the lightweight car I'd have
liked to use, but should still be fairly lively.
In light of this I've sold my type 9 transmission, advertised the Sierra diff and a few other bits. This provides a bit more cash for the
project as well as space in the workshop.
Rear mount starter on the MX5?
Do you mean that the starter mounts facing to the rear? On the mx5 the starter motor faces forward and extends to the position of the engine mount.
Claire had to change that and make a bracket to fit the mx5 box to the V6.
Having had no time to put to the engine recently I've decided to crack on again.
Had a goog day today, took the crankcase to Price brothers in avonmouth to see if I could get a quote on the line boring.
The chap I spoke to seemed keen to help and very knowledgeable so I've left it with them so they can have a proper look.
Also got to have a look at some of the kit which they have which is always nice to see proper engineering kit!
Should have some idea of cost by the beginning of next week.
Popped into Bowden Auto Engineering on the way back through but was all locked up. Depending on whether Price Bros are interested in the work I may
pop in after collecting the crankcase.
Any more progress, really interested to see how this is coming on.
Hope you don't mind me cluttering up you thread, if not let me know and I will delete.
Also, here are a few "ramblings of a madman" having thought about this in the bath and had a few late night, beer infused google sessions,
i came up with the following on a similar theme -
The difficulty (added complication) of the 2 x i4 configuration is that you either have to have them facing the same way and then the exhaust / inlets
clash or have them facing opposite ways and then you need one engine to run an idler to get the correct rotation onto the driveshaft.
I looked at whether you could have two v2 / v4 engines side by side, each canted over opposite ways to make a sort of w4/8 but this makes it very
wide.
Finally I stumbled across what I think may be a reasonable compromise -
The St1300 Honda Paneuropean has a more car like v4 engine:
1,261 cc 90-degree V-4, chain-driven DOHC
Power 117 hp (87 kW) @ 8,000 rpm
Torque 117 N·m (86 lb·ft) @ 6,500 rpm
This sits longitudinally, is shaft driven and interestingly the gearbox seems to sit in the sump under the gearbox. These are extremely tough engines
which regularly are seen in the classified with 100k miles. They are expensive bikes to buy but as they get older and if/when they get dropped the
large amount of fairing will drive economic right offs I think.
So, the idea is that you put two of these end to end to make a 2.5l v8 which will rev to 8k+ and push out around 250hp with a reasonable amount of
torque (for a bike engine). Not startling and no screamer but may be better suited to car road use. Looking at the pictures below there are a couple
of neat areas, the sump come off the bottom of the block and is nicely horizontal to the V and it seems to have a ready made mounting for a drive
shaft down the centre of the V.
So, the sump can be relatively easily made/designed from a rectangular billet of aluminum on a 3 axis mill (probably, designing on the fly in my head)
and a gearbox mounting plate added to the end, a sprocket can be attached to the crank shaft at the rear of each engine, a drive shaft installed
through the two holes on the block with matching sprocket used to connect via chains to the crank shaft sprockets. Add a fly wheel and clutch and off
you go. No lubrication of the drive shaft/chains needed (8k self lubricating bearing are available).
I am sure it is not that simple but on the face of it this looks like a relatively simple way of getting a small capacity (although maybe long), high
revving v8 with reasonable power and torque. Compared to a 2.0l duratec pushing out 250hp this will be relatively lightly stressed and probably a
similar price (assuming you run this with the stock electronics in a dual system) but have a great v8 sound. I would suggest this be mated with an
s2000 box/diff or and audi transaxle.
Any thoughts/ideas welcome.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
