pappy12
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 03:09 AM |
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Moving fence to legal boundary - PP required?
Hello helpful citizens of this forum!
Hope you can offer some advice for us. We have an end of terrace property on a quiet cul-de-sac. It's been extended to over the years as there
was quite a lot of land to the side. However this has encroached the garden space. There is a 6-foot-wide strip of land, that is indicated in the
title deeds to be ours, that runs along the side of the property adjacent to the public footpath. The land is just grass that we have to maintain (not
the council).
We currently have a 2 meter fence that runs to the side, but we want to move it out to the legal boundary. Do we need planning permission?
In the title deeds, it mentions that the front of the property cannot have a boundary fence positioned, which it doesn't. But this is the rear
private garden.
The green line is our existing fence, the blue line is where we want to move it (about 6 feet out). The blue line is also in our title deed showing as
our property boundary. We want to move our existing 2 meter fence out to it.
Some history for you... The last owners of the house, we discovered they got planning permission to build a second extension out to the side of the
property which they did. But at the same time, they also moved the fence out to where we want it now. IN 2008, when the planning inspector came round
to sign off their extension, he asked why they moved the fence also, as it wasn't part of the plans. The inspector made them move the fence back
before he would sign off the building works.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 06:04 AM |
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Firstly: Planning and restrictive covenants on your title deeds have nothing to do with each other. The Local Authority Planning Department do not
take restrictive covenants into account when determining applications, so it's quite possible to get Planning Permission for something that you
don't have the legal right to implement because of a restrictive covenant.
You're splitting hairs by trying to argue that it's 'back' garden, as it's in front of the build line along the side
section of road, but that's a matter for whoever would enforce the covenant (and note that restrictive covenants have to be 'in
favour' of someone and can only be enforced by that person or organisation... you couldn't be taken to court by the Local Authority or
some random neighbour to enforce the covenant).
To answer your question though, you need planning permission for any fence or wall over 1m in height if it fronts an adopted highway (which this
does), so yes, you'll need Planning Permission to relocate a 2m high fence.
I can also tell you (have spent a good bit of my life designing housing estate layouts!) that the fence has been positioned where it is for a specific
reason: to give sufficient forward visibility for drivers as they negotiate the bend.
The design rules and ethos has changed in recent years, however. In the 'old days', under a design document called Design Bulletin 32, the
idea was to give clear forward visibility for drivers to be able to see any hazard in front of them within an 'envelope' sufficient for
the speed limit of the road. These days, we work to a new guidance document called 'Manual for Streets', which broadly suggests that if
you restrict forward visibility, it will slow people down (because the majority of people are sensible enough to drive within the limit
of stopping distance for what they can see in front of them), and thereby improve road safety.
It may be that Highways would consider the reduced forward visibility curve that would result from you relocating the fence to be acceptable,
therefore, but this is one of the reasons that a Planning application is required: Highways is a Statutory Consultee on all Planning applications, and
would get to say whether they are happy with it or not.
But since this is your first post on this forum, are we to assume that you signed up to Locostbuilders just to ask this question?
I think you might have misunderstood the sort of low cost building we do around here. 
[Edited on 18/3/17 by Sam_68]
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Toprivetguns
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 06:12 AM |
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Interesting first post indeed.
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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tims31
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 07:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
I think you might have misunderstood the sort of low cost building we do around here.
[Edited on 18/3/17 by Sam_68]
And how many of us actually manage to stick to low cost????
Build: http://www.martinsfurybuild.co.uk/
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Sam_68
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 08:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tims31
And how many of us actually manage to stick to low cost????
'How to build your own fence for £250' might actually be realistic, mind you?
(although not if you have to submit a Planning application for it - that's £172, straight off!)
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trextr7monkey
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 08:31 AM |
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I reckon Ron. could have rebuilt Hadrians Wall for less than £250 using some pallets and old bed irons . These boundary projects aw very topical at
the moment !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14016102@N00/ (cut and paste this dodgey link)
Our most recent pics are here:
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/trextr7monkey/
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pappy12
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 09:29 AM |
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Thanks Sam and to others who responded.
I joined the forum because I need a builder/landscaper to re-landscape our garden and re-position our fence. I wouldn't be skilled enough to be
able to do it myself. Noticing that others have asked planning permission questions before and some of you quite knowledgeable, thought it a good
place to ask the question!
If I have to fork out £172 for the planning permission, then so be it. One or two neighbours remarked to me that I should just go ahead and move it
without. I do understand the restrictive covenants, but it specifically talks about the front portion of the house and not the side or rear of it.
Since our 2 meter fence has been there since the house was constructed (bar the short period the previous owners moved it out), there has (afterall)
been a large fence in place all this time.
I can understand where you're coming from with the bend and traffic. However this is a very quiet cul de sac, certainly not a busy highway. I
think it might affect the neighbour adjacent to our rear garden as he has a driveway just there and would need to edge out further to look to see if
any car is coming. When I called planning for an informal chat, they said that would likely be the main issue to take into consideration. However,
they did say to take some photos of other properties in the area who have done the same thing and that it might help our application.
So you wouldn't advise just moving it out I suppose?! :-)
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Sam_68
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 09:39 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pappy12
I joined the forum because I need a builder/landscaper to re-landscape our garden and re-position our fence.
For the avoidance of doubt (in case the logo at the top of the screen isn't a big enough hint), this forum is for people interested in
self-building lightweight sports cars. There was a book with plans and instructions of how to build your own car, and the designfor that car became
known as the 'Locost'.
Locostbuilders... geddit?
We have a few people on here who know about building work (I'm the Director of an architectural practice, for example), but that's purely
by coincidence.
If, on the other hand, you want a fence made out of second-hand steel tube held together with chickenshit welding, you're definitely in the
right place.
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andyace
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 10:32 AM |
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quote:
I joined the forum because I need a builder/landscaper to re-landscape our garden and re-position our fence.
LOL ... that's hilarious!
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ianhurley20
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 12:30 PM |
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And just to reinforce the point on fences - I had an old hedge 9' tall alongside my house which was infested with Ivy. An 18' section died
and fell over onto the adjacent pathway. I removed it and put in 3 6' panels with concrete posts.
A few months later I went to my local planning department to ask questions about an extension I wanted to build, I took some photos and showed them at
which point it was pointed out that I could not have fence panels above 1m high (as Sam_68 pointed out) and would have to apply for retrospective
planning permission to keep the panels I had put up. It didn't make any difference that I was replcing a hedge that was taller! I have now done
that and had planning approval for the whole of the boundary - and the extension has been built without planning permission as I didn't need it
for that. Crazy set of rules if you ask me.
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pappy12
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 01:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andyace
quote:
I joined the forum because I need a builder/landscaper to re-landscape our garden and re-position our fence.
LOL ... that's hilarious!
Surely in all fairness, with a website name like "locostbuilders," and the primary keyword 'car' absent from that, I'm
pretty certain the joke's on you! ;-)
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pappy12
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 01:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by pappy12
I joined the forum because I need a builder/landscaper to re-landscape our garden and re-position our fence.
For the avoidance of doubt (in case the logo at the top of the screen isn't a big enough hint), this forum is for people interested in
self-building lightweight sports cars. There was a book with plans and instructions of how to build your own car, and the designfor that car became
known as the 'Locost'.
Locostbuilders... geddit?
We have a few people on here who know about building work (I'm the Director of an architectural practice, for example), but that's purely
by coincidence.
If, on the other hand, you want a fence made out of second-hand steel tube held together with chickenshit welding, you're definitely in the
right place.
I had seen a few other posts asking about perimeter fences, so I thought I was in the right place!
I get the "locost" now, but locost could also mean "low cost" ;-)
I guess it doesn't help when you do a Google search for 'moving fence planning permission' (or something similar, can't
remember what exactly) and previous posts from this forum are placed close to the top. That's how I got here. Then with
"locostbuilders" feeling remarkably like "low cost builders", you can see where the connection is easily made!
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jacko
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 02:17 PM |
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Hi so you made a mistake so what
all i can say your property looks like mine and the 6ft fence is right on the boundary
if that helps
jacko
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mark chandler
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 03:49 PM |
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Jez, offer advice then jump down the mans throat for asking a question, locost builders could easily be a building forum after all.
So you can put up a fence up to 1m, you could risk putting up a fence above this and if it gets complaints then the council may ask you to reduce
it.
I expect the estate has covenants, however these are rarely enforced on anything over 10 years old. My house has restrictions and the developer folded
20 years ago so it is highly unlightly that anything will be done about the multitude of hedges and fences in place today. In the 80's having
open fronted land was very popular along with rules such as no caravans etc.
You could try a few posts and chain to delineate the land and see if anyone kicks off.
Building control upon sign off will look for things to match the drawings, neighbors built a house with fence then planted small lural bushes behind
the fence to hide it from their side, not on the drawings had to remove as they were not included.
[Edited on 18/3/17 by mark chandler]
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 04:08 PM |
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Someone mentioned Hadrian's wall.... I guess that'll be a locost re-build....
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Sam_68
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 04:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pappy12 I think it might affect the neighbour adjacent to our rear garden as he has a driveway just there and would
need to edge out further to look to see if any car is coming. When I called planning for an informal chat, they said that would likely be the main
issue to take into consideration.
Yes, this is valid: your neighbour really should have a 2m. x 2m. visibility splay at the end of his drive, so that he can see any pedestrians as he
drives across the pavement. Strictly speaking it would have been better if whoever had built the estate had conveyed this 2m x 2m triangle of
land to your neighbour, so that he actually controlled the land for this purpose, but even so it is something that Highways could insist upon if you
submit a Planning application to relocate the fence.
If you just go ahead and erect the fence, the worst that would happen on Planning is that they'll ask you to submit a retrospective application
if it is reported to them, and if this application is refused, they can force you to take down the fence.
As I said, Covenants have to be 'in favour' of someone. It will be the original developer, in this case, and as Mark says, it is unlikely
that they will have any interest in enforcing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Chandler
Building control upon sign off will look for things to match the drawings...
Let's not confuse the OP any more than he is already!?
Building Control administer the Building Regulations, which is a completely separate system to Planning, and does not apply here.
Planning is about appearance and impact on other peoples' amenity and local infrastructure. Building Regulations is about the safe and efficient
technical design and construction of buildings.
There is usually no 'sign off' with Planning; indeed most of the time they won't even bother to check whether you've
implemented the work correctly (or at all), unless someone complains (whereas with Building Regulations, Building Control will inspect the work at
stages as it progresses, and can provide you with a certificate at the end to say that it has been done properly).
You don't need Building Control approval for a garden fence. There is some irony in this, since if you erect a building within 1m of a
boundary, it has to be built substantially of non-combustible materials under the B.Regs, in order to prevent spread of fire to neighbouring
properties... yet you can build as much timber fencing as you like actually on the boundary, and nobody worries in the slightest!
quote:
Originally posted by pappy12
I get the "locost" now, but locost could also mean "low cost" ;-)
Yes, it does mean 'Low cost'.... whilst also being a pun in that it sounds a bit like 'Lotus', the original builders of the
sort of car the design copies.
And if you'd been a regular member, nobody would have batted an eyelid at you asking this sort of question: we ask all sorts of random advice of
each other.
No worries, and hope you found the advice useful - but equally hope you understand our finding the confusion mildly amusing?!
We can't persuade you to build your own car, I don't suppose? By the time you'd finished, a bit of fencing would hold no fear, I
assure you...
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mcerd1
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 04:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
We can't persuade you to build your own car, I don't suppose? By the time you'd finished, a bit of fencing would hold no fear, I
assure you...
yeah, forget the fence - get the planning to build a garage / workshop instead...
there are kits / projects around to suit all tastes and most budgets 
[Edited on 18/3/2017 by mcerd1]
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pappy12
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| posted on 18/3/17 at 10:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
We can't persuade you to build your own car, I don't suppose? By the time you'd finished, a bit of fencing would hold no fear, I
assure you...
yeah, forget the fence - get the planning to build a garage / workshop instead...
there are kits / projects around to suit all tastes and most budgets
[Edited on 18/3/2017 by mcerd1]
I think I'd be completely useless. Not only that, when you're self-employed, have a wife, 4 kids, 1 german shepherd and 6 chickens...
there isn't time for a shower and a shave, never mind building a kit car! LOL!
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jacko
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| posted on 19/3/17 at 08:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pappy12
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
We can't persuade you to build your own car, I don't suppose? By the time you'd finished, a bit of fencing would hold no fear, I
assure you...
yeah, forget the fence - get the planning to build a garage / workshop instead...
there are kits / projects around to suit all tastes and most budgets
[Edited on 18/3/2017 by mcerd1]
I think I'd be completely useless. Not only that, when you're self-employed, have a wife, 4 kids, 1 german shepherd and 6 chickens...
there isn't time for a shower and a shave, never mind building a kit car! LOL!
Never mind one day you never know
I hope you sort the fence and good luck
jacko
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ChrisW
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| posted on 29/3/17 at 12:06 PM |
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Interesting thread both for the misunderstanding of Locostbuilders (I get this regularly with spammy emails asking me to advertise building materials)
but also for the subject matter.
My new neighbour has recently moved his fence out about 1m creating zero visibility coming out of my drive. Literally you have to be half way out
into the road to see if anything is coming. It is not a busy road; there are only seven houses beyond my drive, but it still makes it difficult. My
concern though is that the road is not adopted (as far as I know - certainly we are all supposed to pay in if the road ever needs maintenance)
Also the neighbour is also a total d*%&head; within a few months of living here he was trying to tell people where they could and couldn't
park (whilst ignoring his 'rules' himself) and has thoroughly annoyed everything else who lives here. He has been round several times
asking me to be quiet in the garage at the weekend too*.
I have been meaning to complain to the council about it (see above as to why I am not going to speak to him direct) but wasn't sure if I had any
real grounds other than to be a pain in the arse.
Anyone offer any advice on my position?
My advice to the OP is if you are going to do this without getting permission don't upset your neighbours beforehand!)
Chris
*Actually that reminds me of another story... where we used to live the neighbour constantly complained about my MR2. Came round one morning saying
his wife was kept awake because I had been rev'ing it up in the garage all night. I was very smug to show him the car and point out that the
engine bay was empty and the engine in bits on the workbench. I never heard from him again!
My gaff my rules
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ash_hammond
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| posted on 29/3/17 at 03:05 PM |
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I have exactly the same issue with land down the left hand side of our house, roughly 1m in width. Ideal for moving the fence etc. We move in to the
house less that 6 months ago. As I was told the land was ours, I asked if we could use it. It was told no by the solicitor and it needed to be
maintained as a boundary.
.: www.mac1motorsports.co.uk | www.m1moc.com :.
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