hicost blade
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 05:32 PM |
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I thought so
It’s your neighbour who’s at fault
At least you can have a better Christmas in the knowledge that you should feel no guilt over the situation
It’s a real shame the dog has to go though, I feel for you and wish I could help
I really hope you manage to relax and have a good Christmas
[Edited on 24/12/09 by hicost blade]
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UncleFista
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 06:13 PM |
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Dogs need to know where they are in the pecking order, once they know, they're fine. They can be the softest, friendliest dog in the world.
The problem comes when they find their position in the hierarchy threatened. They will fight and kill to retain it (the most natural thing in the
world to a dog).
You'll probably be fine, the dog won't find the baby a threat, but at some point in the future, for whatever reason the dog
"might" decide it's position is being threatened by your baby/child.
Small as that chance might be, I wouldn't risk it for a minute 
Tony Bond / UncleFista
Love is like a snowmobile, speeding across the frozen tundra.
Which suddenly flips, pinning you underneath.
At night the ice-weasels come...
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FFTS
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 06:39 PM |
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I learnt to train dogs from the age of 12 from my ex step dad who was an RAF handler and trainer. I also trained dogs in obedience and manwork
(gaurding/attack) for several years for my living. Things to consider and best advise I can give..
A dog IS a wild animal and we suppress their natural instinct which is to live in a pack with a heirachy and to hunt and kill for food or protection
of the packs interests. Over many hundreds of years we have tempered this behaviour but it is NEVER got rid of. A dog who has experienced ruling a
family member moves up the heirachy and the behaviour is remembered and re-enacted. A dog who has killed also re awakens a natural instinct and moves
up in a heirachy. A dog like this should NEVER be trusted around ANY children not just babies. Children are pack that back down, show fear or run away
from the top dog which encourages and triggers dominance and hunting/chasing instincts.
As for being put down.. this isnt unavoidable. To be re-homed the dog would need to go to owners with no children at home, who knew of his history and
are prepared to control his behaviour through training and always being physically controlled with a lead in public and if showing signs of agression
to other dogs then muzzled.
Maybe not the ideal life for a dog but better than dead hey!!
Chris.
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scootz
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 07:24 PM |
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I normally defer to anyone who has a professional background in something I don't, but in this case I have to take issue with a couple of
points.
A domestic dog is not by definition a "wild" animal. This is an important distinction as the long-standing (and largely disputed) pack /
hierarchical beliefs are based on studies of the behavior of wolves living in their natural habitat. Experts now question the relevance of these
studies... many believing it has no standing whatsoever in the case of the domesticated dog.
As for the suggestion that, "a dog who has killed also re-awakens a natural instinct and moves up in a heirachy. A dog like this should NEVER
be trusted around ANY children, not just babies". This may apply if said dog has killed a member of the 'pack' (again, it's
not proven), but has little relevance if it has killed another small furry animal! Every dog I've ever had has killed things - none (so far...
touch wood) has ever shown a hint of aggression at myself or a family member.
It's Evolution Baby!
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FFTS
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 07:51 PM |
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I can only talk about my own observations of dogs behaviours over many years (I'm 51 now )
Watch the dog whisperer chap and see the pack behaviour. The distinctions for a dog are not if it is fury and has four legs, we have domesticated them
for many many years.. where do you think dogs came from before we domesticated them if not the wild?
I agree that not EVERY dog will learn from a particular behaviour but certain dogs and certain breeds will. Every now and again we see a child mauled
or killed but I guess this doesnt matter as its very rare 
Thats the end of my input as this was just another oppinion for Steve to consider as is yours. I'm sure they are both welcome 
Chris.
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jeffw
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 08:28 PM |
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quote:
err, with me saying that there was no blood on either dog, I'd be pretty sure that even if it were play fighting that went wrong, or
fighting that went wrong - for you to say that my dog ripped the throat out of the westie would be a bit far fetched and scaremongering???
ps - my above post is written in reference to witnesses of the accident.
pps - I am not excusing my dog. Two dogs had a fight and one dog is dead, hence my dog killed the other dog.
I wasn't suggesting your dog ripped the throat out of the Westie....quite the opposite. As you say if there is no blood it wasn't much of
a fight.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 08:50 PM |
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True it sounds to me like they were having a little pop at each other and the Westie happened to drop dead. There might be a case here for carry on as
normal cos it's not like your dog purposely killed...
Like you giving your mate in the pub a dig in the ribs and he trips over and knocks himself out, and then everyone drags you away before you figure
out what happened, your dog might have been confused at his new playmate falling over. No "taste for killing" there
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afj
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 09:13 PM |
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steve if you do put the dog in a run/ kennel be vary carefull the next morning when you go in to feed/walk him, we had a slightly unruley german
shepard, that we decided to home in a run, problem was he decided it was HIS and no one elses, so when my dad walked in to feed him the dog took him
down police dog style and bit him so hard that he broke my dads arm, a police dog handler had to come and remove the dog from my dads arm with
one of those noose things, that dog was 3rd or 4th hand
eerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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mr henderson
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 09:21 PM |
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Every time there is a thread about a dog being involved in something like this you someone will come up with something along the lines of-
"there are no bad dogs, only bad owners"
but if they were to think about it, they might realise that that statement doesn't stand up to any logical examination. Of course there are bad
dogs, just as there are examples of bad behaviour in all animals with brains big enough to exhibit some kind of variation from others of their
species.
I have no idea whether the dog in question is a 'bad dog' or not, and I have no opinion on what should happen to it now, especially after
reading the later posts. But the idea that it's only ever the owner's fault if a dog attacks another animal or a human is daft.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:26 PM |
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Responding to just last post because of where I am n this night etc
I wanted to.criticise that specific post,but felt I should be more subservient because it is MY dog that is responsible, but I am trying to think
about my immediate family and (more importantly right now) the family of my parents neighbours... they have been in touch with mum n dad and have
offered more details about how their dog bit my dogs nose before my dog responded.
Having said that I also feel very responsible because several months ago, I chipped my dogs incisor (sp) n that made it sharp n that will hav at least
scratched the other dog...
Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's
theprice to pay....
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mr henderson
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's
theprice to pay....
I assume you are referring to my post, as that is the last one before your's that I'm quoting here. There is nowhere in that post in which
I am judging you. Read it again. I'm not talking about you at all. Where did you think I was? In fact, I went to extra trouble in writing it to
make that absolutely clear. Not clear enough, apparently.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's
theprice to pay....
I assume you are referring to my post, as that is the last one before your's that I'm quoting here. There is nowhere in that post in which
I am judging you. Read it again. I'm not talking about you at all. Where did you think I was? In fact, I went to extra trouble in writing it to
make that absolutely clear. Not clear enough, apparently.
I'm sorry, but your pre-conceptions of me, are ruling your heart here John, I was trying to use your common sense approach and to take your
support of the situation against you is mis-guided...
I was trying to use your post in it's realistic response to be AGAINST other people that have not responded in a realistic way...
As always, ATB
Steve
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:53 PM |
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Once again, sorry, but I've had a couple of drinks tonight, and neither my response to your post or my reply makes pefrect sense to even me
right now!
No idea how to say this when it's on a post that I care so much about, but Mr Henderson's reply was in my favour and I was in agreement to
that entirely...
Enough said for now..............
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mr henderson
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| posted on 25/12/09 at 07:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
Enough said for now..............
Indeed, muisunderstandings can happen to anyone, anytime. Christmas is a good time for putting such things right.
I hope you can find a suitable new home for your dog, especially as it is would now seem that the other dog had health problems and that it
wasn't so much killed as died as a result of being involved in a fight.
That didn't really come out in the earlier pages of this thread, which is what maybe caused some posters to take a much stricter line.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 25/12/09 at 10:46 AM |
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Have to say I agree with Mr Henderson about on at least some of his points. I knew a couple that had 2 GSD on of which was a big puppy the other was a
killing machine , both dogs had been owned since puppies by the same people and treated exactly the same. Hope everything gets sorted out OK Steve , I
know how you feel .
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bigpig
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| posted on 26/12/09 at 01:24 PM |
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When it comes to bad owners vs bad dogs, I remember the Simpsons episode with the elephant head butting the other elephants. Marge asked why it was
doing it and the keeper said something along the lines of "just like humands sometimes animals are jerks".
The problem with bad owners is training their dogs to be agressive or not taking appropriate measures with a dog (e.g. the basked muzzle for
"snaffle hounds" who eat anything lying on the pavement then get the squits the following day.
Just like humans, some animals can be total knobs.
Speaking again with SWMBO about the whole thing, was either dog bloddied after the attack to any major degree? As someone else said, it may be just
that they had a go at each other and the westie keeled over with a dodgy heart if it was old.
[Edited on 26/12/09 by bigpig]
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prawnabie
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| posted on 26/12/09 at 01:45 PM |
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Steve
I have a friend who works at the Blue cross down here in Bromsgrove. If you need any questions answered whilst trying to come to a decison drop us a
U2U and I will ask her.
Cheers
Shaun
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T66
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| posted on 27/12/09 at 12:14 AM |
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First of all....
NO dog ever gets trusted with children EVER.
Animals dont speak, and we only think we know what they are thinking.
However a dog who has killed another dog may not necessarily be bad with family/children.
Clearly your dog doesnt tolerate some dogs, for me this is something you can try and train out of it by socialising it, you all work at training your
dog to tolerate other dogs, ie agility classes are excellent for socialising.
I know of a friend with a very similar dog to yours who was very ratty and anti social, after 6 months agility work he is totally settled.
When children are involved, the dog must understand fully who is boss, with my dogs the pecking order used to be me,wife then all three kids.
You can reinforce this by supervising children feeding the dog on a rotation basis, getting them to do basic commands then feed him. After 30 seconds
of him eating , get the child to take the food off him. Mine used to scare my wife eating, but was ok with the kids , I used to get her to do it and
he stopped being ratty otherwise he didnt get fed !
Dont jump the gun yet, but keep a very close eye on him and if you want him to fit in with family life consider dog classes/agility, if he doesnt fit
in there then he has to move on...
good luck
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Mr G
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| posted on 17/1/10 at 05:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by thunderace
i blame you sorry to say the owner for not training it ,socialising it ect i see it too aften
quote:
Originally posted by thunderace
if you socialised it when it was a pup it would not attact other dogs .
YOU DONT GET BAD DOG JUST BAD OWNERS
He told everyone in post #10 that they are the third owners, which by that time i'm assuming it's no longer a 'pup' still
openly receptive to your Barbara Woodhouse skills 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
We are his THIRD owners and so even though he will obey my commands, he isn't very good with my wife and parents don't tell him the
same way I do.
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dhutch
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| posted on 27/8/10 at 07:55 PM |
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Thats a bit of a epic thread resurrection there!
Actually the first time i had read the thread but while we're here, whats the update on this?
Ive met the dog in question while at steves and have to say that while it was a fairly lively specimen it was not out character for a dog of its age
or size and didnt appear aggressive to me.
I've grew up with a great dane that was tall than me most of life and then a number of dogs since as have most of the rest of my extened family
and i have to say I dont really buy either the 'theres no bad god, just bad owners' or the 'thats clearly mainly jack rusell so you
can trust it' schools of thought. Life isnt cut and dried like that. Theres also clearly a huge, gab between ripping a another dog apart in cold
blood, and going up to an ageing rather energetically and causing it a heart attack and a massive scale between the two. Our last dog, a
terrier/greyhouse/airedale cross mongrel type thing was as soft as a brush, but she killed a handful baby rabbits every spring, just by 'playing
with ' (chasing) them until they overheated. All that said, i can really see that with a young child around, you would want to be 100% sure, and
sad though it is to let go of a friend, sometimes its has to happen.
Daniel
[Edited on 27/8/2010 by dhutch]
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McLannahan
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| posted on 27/8/10 at 08:26 PM |
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Dan - U2 sent. Sorry, think I called you Steve on the U2 too!
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dhutch
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| posted on 27/8/10 at 10:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by McLannahan
Dan - U2 sent. Sorry, think I called you Steve on the U2 too!
Yeah you did, but whatever. PM received, thankyou.
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