MikeP
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 posted on 25/7/03 at 02:55 AM |
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Sorting locost wheat from chaff
I was unhappy to see a difference of opinions turn into a (small) flame war on one of our topics. Brought to mind something that's been
bothering me for a while.
There's a surprising number of people building locosts (or at least chatting about it) on this and TOL. Many have opinions or advice to share,
and often they come across as if reading from the gospel (it's just the nature of the internet).
Some of the opinions or advice are plain dangerous, many aren't worth the paper they're written on (which is none of course), others are
benign at best, and some are priceless nuggets from knowledgeable experts. But it's very hard to tell the difference. Usually all we can do
is trust our judgement, or use previous posts or what we know about the contributor's background to guess whether they're helping or
hurting.
What would be really good for us amateurs is for our experts to refrain from statements like "those are shite to use on a locost". It
would be so much better to hear: "I've used those before in this manner under these conditions, and it had this particular problem or
advantage". We could extrapolate to our own situation at our own risk (YMMV), and statements like those are very hard for anyone to take
personally or dispute - fewer bad feelings all around.
I know I'm as guilty as anyone else of this, but I'm trying, and at least I can use the defense that no one listens to me anyway.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 07:46 AM |
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I belong to a few different newsgroups and forums (fora?), and if I've learnt anything, it's to take everything with a large pinch of
salt!
No, I'll rephrase that...
If I ask a question and get a whole heap of answers, I always read them with interest. Then I weigh each one against my own experience and decide
whether the proposal is worth considering.
Finally I choose my course of action and I take the entire responsibility for what I do.
In addition, I do tend to answer a lot of questions, mostly because I'm a long way through building my car and have experienced the same
problems along the way. However, I do try to give an answer in the form of "I did it this way...", not "you must do it this way,
there is no other..."
To reiterate*, look at the advice offered and use your own judgement.
regards,
David
* It's OK as long as you clean up afterwards 
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 07:49 AM |
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And also...
If a couple of people end up having a crappy flame war on this forum then at least you can choose to leave the topic unopened!
Unlike TOL...
cheers,
David
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andyps
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 11:31 AM |
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What's TOL?
Seen it mentioned before and didn't know then either.
Cheers
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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Spyderman
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 11:36 AM |
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A lot of people have different opinions on how things should be done. There is no hard and fast way of doing things.
It all depends on how you look at things I guess!
A method that might be right for one will not be for another. Which is right is unimportant. What works for you is what matters.
Some people can take on others experiences and progress from there. Others need to learn things the hard way (I fall into that catagory) and
experience things for themselves.
How many times have you seen/been told "don't touch that it's hot" yet still have to put your hand near to confirm it?
As David said take it all with a big pinch of salt and decide for yourself what you want to do!
When you come onto this forum you would think that it is just about Locost cars (ie those as promoted in Ron Champion's book). However the
reality is there is a vast variety of designs and layouts. Whatever your goals, you read what you want, take in what you want and contribute what you
want!
Personally I think some of the flames are entertaining. Maybe not for the recipient at the time, but afterwards most will look back with
amusement!
These are all just my wierd opinions!
Terry
Spyderman
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 11:41 AM |
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TOL = The Other List
Yonks ago it used the the main place for Locost builders to hang out and discuss car building. Unfortunately it went through a phase where
sh*t-stirrers started stupid arguments, and some people wouldn't give up on a topic even though it had been done to death, plus one or two
anally-retentive moderators and it all got too tedious.
Chris then announced that he'd set up this website (and indirectly started another set of flame wars!) and the 'good guys' slowly
migrated over. All the US and Oz folk set up their own Yahoo groups as well.
Rather sad, because there were some really good contributors on there, and most of the moderators did a really good job by just nudging things here
and there, when necessary.
Now it's calmed down a lot, but few knowledgeable people contribute stuff these days.
Oh - you'd probably like to see the URL as well
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/locost/
cheers,
David
(who is still an occasionally-active member of TOL)
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Peteff
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 03:17 PM |
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I built my car before the internet was invented, at our house anyway, and was helped by the book, MK's, my mate Kev who was building as well and
several magazines and kit car shows. Anyone can say how they have done something and offer advice on a subject, it's up to a reader whether they
accept it as gospel or go their own route. I don't mind anyone taking the piss, it's not serious is it? I've spotted several things
on both lists that I would probably have used if I had been doing a car now and I don't think I've seen anything that looks blatantly
dangerous or insulting to the intelligence of any participants although a lot of the questions asked are repeated occasionally and could be researched
from reading back posts or using Google or similar. I've used spherical joints on parts of my car, Triumph joints on front wishbones and Poly
bushes on rear as well and they all work quite alright, I think this is the latest contender for a fallout but I will carry on reading and absorb what
I want and pass over what I don't.
Keep 'em coming in, it makes the day go quicker.
yours, Pete.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Mix
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 05:10 PM |
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As I see it, Ron and Jim's books should be seen as guidelines. The variety of options now available to builders allows each to persue his own
particular purgatory. The books cannot cover all scenarioes and that is where this forum comes into it's own. I have asked questions in the past
and recieved sound advice for which I am grateful. I appreciate the fact that all responses may not be helpful but it is up to you to decide what
advice to take.
Quite liked the idea of the "Did you find this post of use" input.
Any plans to make this a feature??
Mick
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andyd
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 05:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mix
Quite liked the idea of the "Did you find this post of use" input.
Any plans to make this a feature??
Mick
And Chris if you do make this a feature can I have a free subscription as it was my idea? Oh hang on... this forum IS free! DOH! 
Andy
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chrisg
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 08:27 PM |
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Boy, did my heart sink when I saw the title of this thread.
It's like deja vu
No locost is exactly like any other, what might work on yours, might not on mine.
most subjects on here throw up different ways of doing things, pick the one you like
All replies are valid as they add to the discussion, even if they're wrong, as this may bring out a more knowledgable answer, by way of
correction. Very few incorrect things get through on here.
Don't make people afraid to post for fear of criticism, that's what killed TOL.
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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andyd
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 08:44 PM |
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Agreed Chris.
The way I tend to play it is...
ask question...
wait for response(s)... (hopefully )
ask more questions if required...
wait until thread has obviously come to a conclusion as after a few days if no-one has posted on it then all that's going to be said has been
said...
then pick out the advice that you are happy with...
After posting and reading this forum for a while you soon get to know who the knowledgable people are and therefore trust what they say. I
don't count myself in the trusted section but on some things I've found out an answer and if I can add something to the thread I will. If
people choose to use what I post then great if not then no biggy. ATEOTD I will build my car how I want to build it and if I get stuck on something
that common sense tells me may be life threatening later on then I'll strive to get the best answer possible. If there are conflicting opinions
then I'll cross reference the opinions with other sources before making a decision. I know plenty of other people other than on this forum that
can help me and if I didn't then I probably shouldn't be trying to build a car!
Andy
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MikeP
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 09:32 PM |
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oops
Sorry Chris, another fine example of how hard it is to get one's meaning properly across the wire. I didn't intend to criticise or
discourage posts at all. I was trying to encourage a few more references to the real world in people's answers.
I'm not picking on this forum - the problem is everywhere and worse in most. In fact, this is the only forum I've joined where
there's an appropriate place for me to whine about it  .
I can think of a couple of classic examples. First is the Rorty/Syd discussion of telfon lined ball joints (that inspired my whine). Unsubstantiated
arguements of "it works here, it doesn't work there" can only be refuted with "nope, you're wrong" and hurt
feelings. But if say Rorty says: "I've used teflon ball joints on the suspension in my buggies, and they last for 3 races under hard
use", who can argue with that? We can all learn from it and decide what to do.
The next - bump steer. Rorty's post was the best IMO (are you starting to get the feeling I'm a dedicated Rorty fan ?). He didn't
give a pet theory, he said something like: "There was a buggy that would dart off in either direction after every bump - we looked and it was
caused by bump steer" (sorry for butchering his real words).
Most everyone else were quoting things they've read in books or heard someone say. That's fine, but we should quote the source -
it's quite possible the situations aren't the same. What I felt was sorely missed was someone who said "On my locost I've got
3/16" toe out on 2" of bump and it feels fine (or nasty or whatever). We could really use that kind of input.
Every once in a while I wade through the conflicting opinions and I lose faith that I could ever hope to finish this car - how can I ever sort between
what's so religiously right AND wrong? Then I remind myself of the number guys I know who've finished their cars without being
curse/blessed with this knowledge, and their cars go real nice. And I'm a long way along in my build - how does a newbie keep from getting
discouraged? Esp if they cruise through the older discussions here?
Paraphrasing to make a point: "You can't have any lateral movement of the roll center, if you don't have a CAD don't even try
to design your suspension". But so many have been built without a CAD or an analysis! And who's to say whether the moving roll center
causes the car to gently transition into understeer or jump to snap oversteer? I've read Smith's book, and he's talking about
driver's with honed skills on the edge of the traction circle. So who CAN say? Someone who's built a chassis with a geometry and a
driving style just like yours, that's who. (Rorty often reminds us he builds buggies, not locosts - right on).
I meant this as an appeal to be sensitive to each other and to potential newbies, and to try to quote real examples rather than rules of thumb, so we
can be sure we're drawing good conclusions and not end up bashing egos.
Do I really think to make a difference? Nah. But I had the thought, I found the right section for it here, and for that I thank you Chris. Besides,
I needed to get my post count up  .
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Stu16v
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 11:01 PM |
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What a fabulous (if a little deep for this time of night...) discussion.
I personally think that opinions whether right or wrong, are extremely important for the thread to grow. Yes, unfortunately it does sometimes collapse
into flames, but then it adds entertainment for the rest of us! Most of the time though, flames from threads arise because whilst the internet is a
wonderful tool for discussion, it cant add feeling to the discussion. You have to add that yourself. Just the way you 'read' the thread,
can make a big difference to how it is interpreted.
When reading a discussion that is in full flow, I sometimes re-read the various replys in a different 'voice'.
quote:
Sorry Chris, another fine example of how hard it is to get one's meaning properly across the wire. I didn't intend to criticise or
discourage posts at all. I was trying to encourage a few more references to the real world in people's answers.
MikeP, That is a classic example of rereading the post in a different tone and possibly meaning something else. I personally doubt ChrisG was running
your idea down, just forwarding an arguement that could possibly detract on useful info and generally good natured atmosphere of this site.
As for the danger of inadvertantly extracting dodgy info from various threads, I have personally never seen a thread that has come to a conclusion
that could possibly end with an unpleasant situation. If someone posts a 'bum' answer, there are plenty of people to 'correct'
the info given. If flame wars start, more often than not both camps are right, but for different reasons....
Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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chrisg
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| posted on 25/7/03 at 11:24 PM |
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quote:
I personally doubt ChrisG was running your idea down, just forwarding an arguement that could possibly detract on useful info and generally good
natured atmosphere of this site.
You're right there, Mikep's original point that "real world"situations(The I did this and this happened )type posts are
probably the most useful is completely valid.
I was just worried that we would put people off posting for fear of being wrong, as I said we usually sort it out between us!
I'm glad that we're all friends on here, even if we dissagree - no inTOLlerance
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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Metal Hippy
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| posted on 26/7/03 at 12:47 AM |
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Just so long as everyone notes that you talk bollocks, eh Chris...
Cock off or cock on. You choose.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 26/7/03 at 08:44 AM |
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you post your query..........
you read the replys...........
you makes your mind up..........
simple.
there must be 100+ completed locosts owned/driven by users of this list with well over that figure in various states of construction, stand em all in
a row, no 2 will look alike, don't you just love locosts.
IMO some replys get a bit deep, i just ignore em, easy as that, guess i post 5hite too from time to time in other peoples opinion, ignore em, simple
as that.......live n let live n take out the snippets that help.
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chrisg
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| posted on 26/7/03 at 10:47 AM |
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You can rely on the Hippy to sum it up in a nutshell!
Cheers
Chris
I'm going to pull your fingernails out one by one you hairy git.
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/7/03 at 08:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeP
Every once in a while I wade through the conflicting opinions and I lose faith that I could ever hope to finish this car - how can I ever sort between
what's so religiously right AND wrong? Then I remind myself of the number guys I know who've finished their cars without being
curse/blessed with this knowledge, and their cars go real nice. And I'm a long way along in my build - how does a newbie keep from getting
discouraged? Esp if they cruise through the older discussions here?
Mike,
I can only quote an old boss of mine, who was a straight-talkng Yorkshireman... "When you get down to it, you have to apply the JFDI principle
- Just ****ing Do It!"
My personal experience is that I would fret about something that didn't seem right - but in the end I just did the job and most times it just
worked out OK in spite of my worries.
The book isn't far wrong, and where it is, a bit of intelligence will sort it out.
On thing's certain on this group - ask a question and you'll get 10 contradictory answers! Sometimes it's better not to ask!
(but sometimes a few 'moral support' answers make all the difference...)
Enjoy your build!
regards,
David
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Stu16v
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| posted on 26/7/03 at 11:49 PM |
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quote:
On thing's certain on this group - ask a question and you'll get 10 contradictory answers!
It's rare that you would get 10 condadictory answers. You do get 10 different ideas though.......
Dont just build it.....make it!
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bob
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| posted on 27/7/03 at 08:20 AM |
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And ten different looking cars
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 07:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
Boy, did my heart sink when I saw the title of this thread.
It's like deja vu
No locost is exactly like any other, what might work on yours, might not on mine.
most subjects on here throw up different ways of doing things, pick the one you like
All replies are valid as they add to the discussion, even if they're wrong, as this may bring out a more knowledgable answer, by way of
correction. Very few incorrect things get through on here.
Don't make people afraid to post for fear of criticism, that's what killed TOL.
Cheers
Chris
Funnily enuf Chris , so did mine
we must both have a guilty concience!
I post cos I enjoy it, and if anything I input helps, then great. If it dont, sorry, just ignore it. I have had bags of useful help - AlanB , ChrisG
and David Jenkins being just some. Thanks also to those I didnt mention.
If you think about it, building a car from scratch is a massive risk. Lots to get wrong. Ford have done it for 100 years, and there I am trying to
knock something up from some of Henrys bits in my garage with little proper tooling for the first time.
Who wouldnt need help - possibly mentally too
I tend to build up a list of people whose advice id agree with more than others, and others advice I take and check it out before I jump into
anything.
BTW David - how many of those TOL categories did I fit.. all of em?
PS - never been a moderator tho.....total power appears to totally corrupt.
atb
steve
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 08:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
BTW David - how many of those TOL categories did I fit.. all of em?
I'm amazed that it took so long for anyone to bite...
...and, as it happens, a lot of reasonable people got unreasonable under provocation!
David
P.S. How's that for a non-answer? I should have been a politician!
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 10:28 PM |
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I bit as fast as I could - I was on hols!
atb
steve
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