the moa 2
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 05:02 PM |
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Craig Davis electric water pump
OK i have fitted my EWP1 and Electric controller unit which utilises a thermostat which you drop into the engine block.
Now i have previously had it working fine with my garage tests as we have yet to do any runs in the car yet.
But now it seems to run all the time the ignition is on obviously something is going on with the wiring anyone got any pointers.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 05:28 PM |
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Its Davies Craig for starters 
[Edited on 17/3/07 by ChrisGamlin]
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G.Man
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 05:50 PM |
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I would imagine it runs slowly when the ignition is on, otherwise it would be difficult to bleed...
Then as it gets hotter it runs faster...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 05:53 PM |
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Yep on a serious note Id also expect it to run a little bit all the time, surely the water needs to be moving to some extent otherwise how would the
temp sender (which isnt inside the engine block) accurately measure the water temperature.
[Edited on 17/3/07 by ChrisGamlin]
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G.Man
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 06:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Yep on a serious note Id also expect it to run a little bit all the time, surely the water needs to be moving to some extent otherwise how would the
temp sender (which isnt inside the engine block) accurately measure the water temperature.
Convection lol
but apparently, below 20 degrees c, the controller turns off the pump..
quote:
In each case the controller electronically senses coolant temperature and adjusts the voltage to the pump, and thereby, the EWP coolant flow. The
algorithm in each controller has 3 distinctive phases of operation:
No Output -Up until coolant temperature approx. 20 degC below that 'set', the controller provides no voltage to the pump therefore does
not operate.
Pulsing - Between 20 and 5 degC below 'set' temperature, the controller provides a 'pulse' signal of around 4~5 volts OFF and
ON every few seconds to provide a very small flow ro remove any hot-spots in the engine (ie around valves etc).
Pump-On - From 5 degC and above the 'set' temperature, the voltage output from the controller rises linearly with temperature until the
pump is at full capacity. The controller will 'lock-on' to the 'set' temperature and control the pump accordingly.
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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JoelP
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 09:16 PM |
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i was thinking about electric pumps today, how much are they and where is a good place to get them?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 09:42 PM |
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This is only based on a few people's experience from the Yahoo BEC list not my own, but there seems / seemed to be a concensus on there that
some of the Davies Craig pumps had a few reliability and build quality question marks.
Gordon Griffin who's a front runner in the RGB had at least one failure I believe, so ended up swapping to an OEM pump off of a VW of some sort
if I remember correctly. Might be worth asking the question over there as I doubt you'll find anything with the search tool
[Edited on 17/3/07 by ChrisGamlin]
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bike_power
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 10:15 PM |
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I think the older pumps would seize up because the plastic housings could flex, depending on how they were mounted.
I wouldn't use one on my car, even if it was free - have heard of far too many failing like Chris hinted at.
Have a look at the GPR catalog, I remember seeing some new pumps in there and they looked far more like a proper electric water pump. Not cheap
though, but then if the pump fails on a trackday you've really only got a few seconds before the head is toast on a bike engine.
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G.Man
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| posted on 17/3/07 at 10:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
I think the older pumps would seize up because the plastic housings could flex, depending on how they were mounted.
I wouldn't use one on my car, even if it was free - have heard of far too many failing like Chris hinted at.
Have a look at the GPR catalog, I remember seeing some new pumps in there and they looked far more like a proper electric water pump. Not cheap
though, but then if the pump fails on a trackday you've really only got a few seconds before the head is toast on a bike engine.
That depends on what you use as coolant...
water, yes, you're screwed... but if you have military spec desert storm coolant, you will be fine..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 12:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
water, yes, you're screwed... but if you have military spec desert storm coolant, you will be fine..
If you're so confident, try it ! It may work in some dirty great tractor engine in a hummer but I'll bet it's another matter in a
small, all alloy bike engine.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 12:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
This is only based on a few people's experience from the Yahoo BEC list not my own, but there seems / seemed to be a concensus on there that
some of the Davies Craig pumps had a few reliability and build quality question marks.
Gordon Griffin who's a front runner in the RGB had at least one failure I believe, so ended up swapping to an OEM pump off of a VW of some sort
if I remember correctly. Might be worth asking the question over there as I doubt you'll find anything with the search tool
[Edited on 17/3/07 by ChrisGamlin]
I think Gordon tracked his issues down to expansion of casing etc...i.e. rubber mount so there is some room for expansion without the casing
cracking...
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G.Man
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 05:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
water, yes, you're screwed... but if you have military spec desert storm coolant, you will be fine..
If you're so confident, try it ! It may work in some dirty great tractor engine in a hummer but I'll bet it's another matter in a
small, all alloy bike engine.
I already have thanks..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 08:48 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
water, yes, you're screwed... but if you have military spec desert storm coolant, you will be fine..
If you're so confident, try it ! It may work in some dirty great tractor engine in a hummer but I'll bet it's another matter in a
small, all alloy bike engine.
I already have thanks..
How long did you drive your car for without the pump running ?
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the moa 2
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 08:48 AM |
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Well lots of info some of a bit scary.
I was planning on mounting a light on the dash which would let me know when the pump was working because once you start the engine theres no way with
all the noise and vibrations that you can tell if its actually running or not.
Like have said the pump never used to be on as soon as the ignition was switched on and would come on when engine got up to temperature.
Im gonna have to retrace all the wiring and just make sure its all up to scratch especially the thermostat line .
Oh and by the way the thermostat is actually placed inside the block it has to come out via the hose which was a nightmare to get it to work with out
it leaking.
Whats most annoying was that the first time i started this engine and got it up to temperature everything ran like clock work no hoses blew off with
an air lock, temperature was sitting at 70 degress and wouldn't increase as i had my fan and water pump controller set to run cold. I thought i
cracked it but after a couple of garage start ups it has began to deteriate. I think ive gone through about 20 litres of coolant (exageration).
Craaaiiig Daaavvviiss all the way
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G.Man
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 02:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
How long did you drive your car for without the pump running ?
The pump was running, but it previously boiled over with the bosch oem VW pump as it was insufficient..
With the coolant it stayed below 100 degrees C...
Coolant is coolant, if it removes heat and doesnt boil, doesnt matter what the engine is... at cyp£25 a litre it isnt cheap tho...
Oh and by the way, it was recommended by my friend who runs a 900bhp skyline he built, so he knows his stuff!
MOA, make sure the pump has been bled properly, that makes all the difference...
The Stewart pump from the US is supposed to be good as well... flows around 200L per minute, so a bit of overkill for our engines, designed for
1000hp+ dragsters.. not cheap in UK at £275+vat but far cheaper from US at $350 + shipping and import duty..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 05:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
How long did you drive your car for without the pump running ?
The pump was running, but it previously boiled over with the bosch oem VW pump as it was insufficient..
With the coolant it stayed below 100 degrees C...
Coolant is coolant, if it removes heat and doesnt boil, doesnt matter what the engine is... at cyp£25 a litre it isnt cheap tho...
Oh and by the way, it was recommended by my friend who runs a 900bhp skyline he built, so he knows his stuff!
MOA, make sure the pump has been bled properly, that makes all the difference...
The Stewart pump from the US is supposed to be good as well... flows around 200L per minute, so a bit of overkill for our engines, designed for
1000hp+ dragsters.. not cheap in UK at £275+vat but far cheaper from US at $350 + shipping and import duty..
You've done it again haven't you  We're talking about pump failure and then you say your special coolant will survive pump failure
so somebody asks for more information, how you tested it, then it turns out that you haven't actually tested it in that way at all, all you did
was replace the original coolant with the "magic" fluid.
OK, so it's not proven - it might have an additive which makes it more efficient, much like water wetter or when you drained the system you
might have got rid of an air lock.
Just because a 'mate' has a 900bhp Skyline doesn't make him an expert in coolants.
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G.Man
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 06:25 PM |
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As usual you look for fault in everything I post, just like a troll, but you asked if I had had a pump failure and I havent, but i have seen a 450ps
S14 and a 900bhp skyline that have had water pump failures with no bad results..
Both high power and alloy headed..
The coolant is a "type" of thick ethylene glycol that you run without water... it is tested to boil at over 300 degrees... you run it
without water, and it doesnt require a presurised system, as it doesnt expand/boil..
This coolant has been designed for all vehicles used in extreme conditions of heat and cold and to for an engine to survive water pump failures...
My system did not have an airlock, it had been drained, refilled, rebled about 30 times... the simple fact was, the bosch pump wasnt up to it, and the
water was boiling in the block..
We tested the new coolant, it cured it, we then changed pumps and went back to water to test, no boiling, then we drained and refilled with the
coolant for additional protection...
I am not selling the stuff, I have nothing to gain, I dont give a feck about your unfinished car and what you are gonna use, but I know of cars using
this that have driven 50+ km without a fan belt and had no negative results...
If you think a 175bhp bike engine is more fragile than a 900+ bhp skyline, then you are an idiot, simple as...
So no, not an additive, a specifically designed coolant for the situation you presented, water pump failure... If you have a friend that works for the
army and prepares vehicles for desert work, he may be able to get you some.. if not, tough shit.. But just because you cant get and test the stuff,
doesnt mean it doesnt exist and work..
So as you have no experience of my car, and you dont live in a hot country, and you have never heard of the fluid, how do you have any relevant
experience to comment?
Answer... You dont...
You just wanted to pick and argument as usual..
So talking of heads, get yours out of your ass, finish your car, and talk about something you have experience of, rather than you usual nit picking
twaddle..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 06:54 PM |
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PS. for those that want to know why an engine trashes itself if it overheats, and how a better coolant can help prevent it, its quite simple..
As the coolant boils, hot spots form in parts of the engine that expand far more rapidly than other areas..
As the expansion is not uniform, the cylinder head (usually) twists itself out of shape...
If the coolant maintains the engine at a more even temperature, no boiling takes place, the components expand uniformly, and the engine can survive
longer than a few seconds..
To compare, think of an aircooled engine... the biggest problem with these is airflow... block one part of the airflow and you usually have issues,
normally around the exhaust as this is where there is most heat..
Even with a water pump failure, some convection takes place, thats why coolant flows in the direction it does around your system.. the problem is,
that even with some convection, water will boil too quickly, rapidly accelerating the heat spots growth and damage... with a coolant that will not
boil at the temp the engine reaches, no hot spots, convection allows some heat loss, and although the engine runs at the top end of its heat range, it
does not destroy itself...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 07:01 PM |
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Woooooooo keep your wig on ! 
Why do you assume that nobody has any experience of these things except for you ? You state the obvious and make it sound like you've
discovered the answer to nuclear fusion.
Sounds like you have complete faith in this fluid so why not turn your pump off and go for a drive.....and tell us how you get on.
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G.Man
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 07:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
Why do you assume that nobody has any experience of these things except for you ?
Sounds like you have complete faith in this fluid so why not turn your pump off and go for a drive.....and tell us how you get on.
No need to assume, you have made it completely clear you do not know of, or have experience of the coolant.. So was I assuming? or was it clear from
your posts you have not tried it?
The reason I don't do that, is purely because its there as a safety measure, not as a replacement..
Whilst I am confident it will work as described, what I am not confident about is how much damage has already been done to the engine by the previous
bouts of overheating..
Anyway, who knows, we may well find out if the davies craig pump fails as people are expecting..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 18/3/07 at 11:16 PM |
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I didn't say I had experience of this coolant, never heard of it - what is its name ? Have you got a link to a web site or a technical document
? Can you point me at an on-line store ?
It can't be pure EG as EG is not a good coolant, it has a lower specific heat capacity than water so there has to be something else in there if
you say it cured your over heating problem.
Water wetter which is basically a non-foaming detergent will help a water based system as it lowers the surface tension of the water so transferring
more heat into and out of it.
EG has a high boiling point, much higher than water so it won't boil as quickly as water would so you won't get the localised boiling that
the small pump was contributing to.
What is going to cuirculate this coolant around the engine ? Convection will only work where the heat sorce, in this case primarily the cylinder
head, is below the level of the radiator so the fluid can move upwards from the head to the radiator, cool as it passes through the radiator and then
goes back into a the bottom of the engine. If the entry to the radiator is at a similar height to the cylinder head then you'll get some small
fluid flow but hardly any.
You can test this by turning off the water pump and running the engine at idle for a few minutes. Feel the temp of the head - it will warm up very
quickly, busa feels warm after only 10-20 seconds. If the convection theory is correct then you would feel the top hose get hot too and then the top
of the radiator. You said you don't run a thermostat so there's nothing to stop the convection process from working, if it is going to.
You can run the engine for about 2-3 mins on idle like this, from cold, without doing any damage even with a water based coolant.
My car has bee on track days in 30 degree heat and with a 20% EG 80% water mix and not had a problem. The UK in the summer these days is almost as
hot as other countries.
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G.Man
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| posted on 19/3/07 at 06:57 AM |
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Yup I understand water wetter, nasty pink stuff that stops micro boiling steam bubbles as it breaks the surface tension... Been using it many years,
but it only cures a small problem not a big one...
I am off with influenza today, but I think, if I remember right, it contains polyethylene glycol, it is combined with other chemicals to increase its
boiling point (and flash point) and you will find, if you do research, that it is commonly used as a heat transfer fluid in high end computers
(mainframes) in its native form..
Believe me, the UK in summer may have some hot days, but it is nowhere near the average temp in cyprus during July and August.. the average here over
a day and night 24 hours would be around 30 degrees... Nicosia, in summer, is well above 40 degrees in the shade, and in the sun, well its frankly
unbearable..
quote:
June - July - August: Hot summer time with the cloudless sky and temperatures up to 40° C. Recommended is very light summer clothing. Make sure you
wear sunglasses and a hat. Have plenty of sun cream with you as well as a bottle of water.
We have tested the system at idle with the pump switched off, and the rad gets hot, but that was an error (connected wiring and fuse blew without us
noticing) so some convection is taking place, albeit far less efficient than the pump... We tried pure EG, as that was what the system was filled with
from day one, and we still had some problems, although at this point, it MAY have been airlocks... after this we refilled and rebled the system some
30 times, without a win...
I would love to point you at an online store, and I am sure one will become available at some stage, but at the moment, the only place we can get it
is via the UK Bases in Cyprus.. we buy it in 25 litre drums, it is yellowy grey in colour and feels like oil, it is more viscous than ethylene glycol
and obviously water..
If you want some to test, I am happy to send you a small sample, but enough for a cooling system would be a little tricky to post..
Anyway, I am glad you have decided to have a sensible discussion rather than ridicule.. give me a few more days, and I can have a lot more detail, as
I need to get down the workshop for the contents label
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 19/3/07 at 12:07 PM |
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What about power consumption.
I remember hearing that these EWP can cause a problem on bikes owing to the low currents generated from the bike alternator.
I guess on a race car where lights are absent and the fan won't be running this isn't an issue, but in real-life stuck in traffic with
some lights on, fan going. I know this isn't a situation we want to consider, but ...
Any experiences.
Matt
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G.Man
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| posted on 19/3/07 at 12:52 PM |
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Not had an issue
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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bike_power
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| posted on 19/3/07 at 10:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
I am off with influenza today, but I think, if I remember right, it contains polyethylene glycol, it is combined with other chemicals to increase its
boiling point (and flash point) and you will find, if you do research, that it is commonly used as a heat transfer fluid in high end computers
(mainframes) in its native form..
You need to have a look at the tin and see what's in it because one of the PEG variants won't help you anymore than EG will. Plain water
would be a better heat conductor.
Water cooled electronic often uses EG and other chemicals to reduce corrosion and bacteria but the primary coolant is water, most frequently
de-ionised water so it's not conductive so a leak doesn't necessarily kill the equipment.
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