-matt
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 06:43 PM |
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Anyone else scared to take your BEC on track?
I would love to take my Indy R with 08R1 on a trackday, but after reading so many horror stories of these engines going pop on track, am I over
reacting?
I've got a baffled sump, and the breathing mod.
Plan on getting it down to PDQ soon to get the fuelling set up right.
And fit an accusump to prevent oil surge.
But my man worry is the 08 4C8 engine seems to have problems with cylinder 2 and 3 melting when driven hard!
What can I do to prevent this?
I really want to have some fun on track, but don't think I will enjoy it with this thought in the back of the mind that my engine could go pop!!
As I really couldn't afford to replace it if it were to go pop!
Almost makes me want to sell the R1 and fit a car engine  but the bike engine is just soooo much fun.
Anyone any advice on how to make my R1 reliable on track?
Cheers
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fesycresy
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 06:48 PM |
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Send a message to TimC.
I'm sure that's the engine he's using in his 'retro' RGB car.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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Kev99
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 07:24 PM |
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Hiya had my 08 r1 engine in for over 2 years
Use it for Road and a few track days
Ive only fitted the baffle plate and done the breather mod
and had fueling set up with power commander on rolling road
Had a problem with it breathing heavy on track days after being driven very hard none stop 
sorted this by adding an oil separator between the crank case breather outlet and the oil catch tank
also added an oil cooler the 2nd year it was in to keep oil temp down a bit
Kev,,,,,
hope this helps
Ps
also got the exup etc still in the car as when i was installing it Andy Bates said keep it in as he thought it might be one of the problems
people were getting with the engine
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adithorp
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 07:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kev99
Ps
also got the exup etc still in the car as when i was installing it Andy Bates said keep it in as he thought it might be one of the problems
people were getting with the engine
I've spoken to Andy a couple of times about this and it seems the cars that have had the problem they've dumped the EXUP and not fited
anything to fool the ECU into thinking it's still there (if you don't run the yamaha clocks you get no fault light). If you don't
have the EXUP do a search for the EXUP widget on here.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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-matt
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 07:46 PM |
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Thanks Kevin, good to see you've had good experience with this engine.
I will def be fitting an oil cooler as its hitting over 100deg when driven hardish on the road, so might aswell fit an accusump at the same time for
piece of mind.
I've just ordered a exup motor off eBay, which I will fit before it gets mapped.
Also I've read a bit about manifold design being important, this is my manifold, does this look up to the job?
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Kev99
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| posted on 1/5/13 at 08:02 PM |
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headers look better than mine so should be ok there
Yup i also ducted my rad so no air can get around the sides etc
but still gets hot when driven very hard on track so thinking of getting an ally rad for it
i struggle with noise as just running a piper-cross filter ATM will be building an air-box this year
Kev...............
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I've spoken to Andy a couple of times about this and it seems the cars that have had the problem they've dumped the EXUP and not fited
anything to fool the ECU into thinking it's still there (if you don't run the yamaha clocks you get no fault light). If you don't
have the EXUP do a search for the EXUP widget on here.
I used the exup as i already had it but yes i understood it as u can use the widgit as u say
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 2/5/13 at 11:44 AM |
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Pour yourself the best pint of real ale that has ever been poured. Now place that full glass of ale on the table, and look at it. Clean the dust that
settles on the outside of the glass, by all means, but don't actually drink the ale, just look at it.....
Bike engines on a track are consumable items, like brake pads. When competing over a full weekend, a long way away from the garage, I carry a complete
spare engine (and brake pads too). I've had to change the engine only once in the paddock (2011), but I still carry a spare just in case.
BOTH the 4C8 and it's older brother the 5VY have proven themselves in Formula Jedi, both are good.
But yes, if you put in on a track, continually hit the ECU bounce off point, basically - really enjoy it - something will break.
The alternative is a slow and painful death on the A and B roads of this Septic Isle, not much fun really.
Enjoy!
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kev super 6
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| posted on 2/5/13 at 06:02 PM |
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Hi Matt,
If your thinking of fitting an accusump I have just removed mine as no longer needed, I also have an oil cooler and all fittings
if your interested.
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TimC
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| posted on 3/5/13 at 04:50 PM |
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Hello,
Had missed this thread. As Fesycresy says, I am using a 4C8 in my retro RGB build. Many of the choices that I've made with my car are unproven
and that was the case with the 4C8 when I started to build but I think it's a better-proven unit now. I've heard all sorts of reasons as
to what causes the issues around cyl 2/3. Most have been mentioned here but in summary:
- Poor header design
- Lack of EXUP
- Poor cooling (unspecific)
- Insufficient oil cooling capacity
- Weak water pumps
- Lack of breather mod
- Incorrect angle in the car
So, header design is about having fairly large diameter headers and having a design that scavenges the gases - dark art; good luck. The lack of EXUP
seems to be reasonable - and beware the widgets - they are prone to fail from what I've read. In terms of cooling, there's a couple of
points:
- Invest in a really sizeable oil cooler and place it in airflow.
- If the water pump is close to capacity either upgrade the pump (Davies Craig or similar) or as I have tried to do minimise what it's being
asked to do. In my installation I've kept the hose runs as short as possible. I've also junked the oil-water cooler (bought a proper
replacement take-off from the States which also minimises the oil-pipe length). Hence, you have a water radiator keeping the water cool and an oil
radiator keeping the oil cool. If both are up to the job then it should work.
- Do all of it, that is combine the external water pump with the other mods.
Now, I'm hoping to avoid the additional water pump (complexity, weight, extra failure point) but it remains to be seen if the other mods are
enough.
The breather mod is a must-do. The angle in the car is, based on the varied installations that I've discussed with owners, probably a red
herring.
A couple of potentially useless pics:
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sdh2903
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| posted on 3/5/13 at 06:03 PM |
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I can't wait to get mine on track, I've made the required mods and have been through and check tightened every thing after each 100
miles, from my perspective I've prepared it as best I can, if it still goes bang at some point it will be annoying but not the end of the
world.
I would be more peed off of I'd stayed at home wondering what the car would be like on a track, life's too short.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 3/5/13 at 07:16 PM |
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mallory next friday afternoon,£99 and still spaces. a good 4 hour shakedown.im going as my first time ever on track!
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-matt
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| posted on 4/5/13 at 09:23 AM |
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Tim thanks, that is very useful information.
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richiekuk
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| posted on 4/5/13 at 05:04 PM |
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I took my 5VY R1 Fury on the track for the first time on tuesday at Cadwell.
My accusump packed up a few days before, so I just took it out of the system, leaving me with just a baffle plate, and breather mods.
After speaking to Andy Bates about it we decided it would be fine, and it was perfect. Never missed a beat. I also have an oil cooler, so oil temps
were not an issue.
Richie K
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-matt
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 11:08 AM |
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I would like to fit a accusump as piece of mind, couple of questions though.
Is a 2pt sufficient?
I will prob just get a manual valve version, once setup can I just leave the valve open, so it fills up on engine startup then discharges when either
looses pressure or engine shutoff?
Or do I really need the valve in reach to turn on/off before engine startup/shutoff?
Cheers
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daniel mason
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 01:01 PM |
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would a dry sump not be a safer bet? or are they not making one for the 4c8 yet? i was told to avoid the 4c8 like the plague when swapping the engine
in the catrham but have no real fist hand experience with them. just took the advice!
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-matt
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 01:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
would a dry sump not be a safer bet? or are they not making one for the 4c8 yet? i was told to avoid the 4c8 like the plague when swapping the engine
in the catrham but have no real fist hand experience with them. just took the advice!
Not sure, but I'm pretty sure it would be out of my budget anyway!
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richiekuk
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 01:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by -matt
I would like to fit a accusump as piece of mind, couple of questions though.
Is a 2pt sufficient?
I will prob just get a manual valve version, once setup can I just leave the valve open, so it fills up on engine startup then discharges when either
looses pressure or engine shutoff?
Or do I really need the valve in reach to turn on/off before engine startup/shutoff?
Cheers
Mine is a 4pt. It was the solenoid valve that failed shut on mine. Not really sure about the manual valves.
Give Andy Bates a ring he is immensely knowledgable.
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 08:21 PM |
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Yes, the orientation is different, it's transverse, and yes your cars are much quicker / more powerful etc. than mine, but surely if my Jedi
(2005 5VY) can survive 20-25 minutes of slick-shod downforce'd hell with nothing more than a sump baffle (and breather modification), you should
be 'OK' without a dry sump or accumulator.
By the way - you only leave the hoseclip loose on the breather *once*, the amount of oil that comes out of the pipe stub on the crankcase when open to
the atmosphere is amazing, one helluva mess.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 5/5/13 at 08:49 PM |
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id highly doubt any of our cars would even get close to a 5vy jedi!
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