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Author: Subject: Roll bar/Cage
richard munnis

posted on 21/10/15 at 07:17 AM Reply With Quote
Roll bar/Cage

Hi Folks
Is the spec changing for rollbar main hoop for 2016 or am I wrong.

Cheers Richard

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JacksAvon

posted on 21/10/15 at 07:54 AM Reply With Quote
I dont know.

Where are you getting your information from?

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jeffw

posted on 21/10/15 at 08:46 AM Reply With Quote
For road going kitcars that compete the MSA are requiring MSA compliant Rollhoops/Cages for 2016





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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 21/10/15 at 08:48 AM Reply With Quote
Lots of information here:

http://www.uphillracers.com/showthread.php/rops-road-going-specialist-production-11471.html

But as Jeff says its not that the ROPS build rules are changing its just that kit cars now need to comply to compete in MSA events.





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ali f27

posted on 21/10/15 at 06:34 PM Reply With Quote
Well that probably just did it for me i am sick of spending more an more complying with constant rule changes doubles my budget for next no wonder we cannot get any youngsters into the sport sod em.
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jeffw

posted on 21/10/15 at 07:17 PM Reply With Quote
Sign the petition then

Petition

[Edited on 21/10/15 by jeffw]





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ali f27

posted on 22/10/15 at 04:48 PM Reply With Quote
Signed
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Shooter63

posted on 22/10/15 at 07:28 PM Reply With Quote
I've signed even though I don't compete at the moment, I just don't think it's right to bring in such a drastic rule change with hardly any lead in. I am contemplating having a bash in the up to 2ltr road going class sprints, the new change means that the roll bar will have to be higher and with back stays which means the soft top won't fit, and I've got to cut the rear bodywork to fit the stays. If the MSA don't want road going cars to compete, why don't they just ban them.

Shooter

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 23/10/15 at 08:43 AM Reply With Quote
There are two side to every story, there are cars (largely kit type) running in the road going classes that would put many single seaters to shame in terms of power and speed yet they only have flimsy unnaproved roll hoops.

When I saw the Westfield roll at the NSCC event at Curborough and the roll hoop collapsed I could certainly see the need for a change.

Sometimes things are down to personal choice (I wouldnt compete in anything without a proper cage) but I think we have got to a point where the current speed of Specialist production cars has overtaken the fairly low level roll cage rules and things need to be updated.

A reasonable amount of bile should be aimed at the kit manufacturers here for selling cages as 'competition' that were never homologated. Certainly from the reading I have done that seems to be the case with Westfield, they have been selling the "RAC" roll bar for competition use but although it complied to the rules of the time they never bothered to homologate it so now its illegal. If they had homologated it, all existing cars fitted with it could have carried on competing.

I'm sure I'll get shouted down for this opinion but then again I'm bet people did when they made helmets mandatory.

[Edited on 23/10/15 by Doctor Derek Doctors]





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

http://www.t89.co.uk/single-seater-locost.html



Supplier of pin kits for Alloy Uprights, Caterham Wingstay mounts and Ball Joint to Rose Joint steering conversion kits.

www.t89.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk

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jeffw

posted on 23/10/15 at 08:56 AM Reply With Quote
There is nothing to stop you running (until 2016) with no roll hoop at all. I should also point out that kitcars regularly run in other classes (Mod Prod and Sports Libre) with non-compliant rollhoops/cages and have for many years without the Scrutes applying the MSA rules.

You also have no obligation in a road-going class to run full harnesses....I could turn up and use a 3 point inertia belt for instance. We are talking about a road-going class so there is simply a requirement to be road-legal, the MSA have now put requirements on top of this (ROPS and banning some road legal tyres).

Don't forget that Elise/VX220 etc also fall into the kitcar class....I doubt that any of those pass MSA ROPS requirements.

[Edited on 23/10/15 by jeffw]





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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 23/10/15 at 09:36 AM Reply With Quote
Sports Libre (Hill Climb Supersports) cars are already required to comply with section K ROPS so I dont know how people have competed with no roll cage/hoop in that class.

Anyway I'm just making the case that there are two sides to this story, theres no point arguing with me as I dont make the rules but I can see why they are being implemented.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

http://www.t89.co.uk/single-seater-locost.html



Supplier of pin kits for Alloy Uprights, Caterham Wingstay mounts and Ball Joint to Rose Joint steering conversion kits.

www.t89.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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jeffw

posted on 23/10/15 at 10:24 AM Reply With Quote
I'm not suggesting nor did I write that Mod Prod/Sport Libre competed with no ROPS. What I'm saying is that the rules are not enforced now let alone when the kitcar classes are dragged in.

How can you mandate a ROPS but allow 3 point inertia belts, how is that safer?





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yngndrw

posted on 23/10/15 at 12:21 PM Reply With Quote
Speaking of three point belts, as HANS devices are now required from 2016 and HANS devices require a proper harness does this mean that from 2016 all cars competing in MSA events will require full harnesses ?
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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 23/10/15 at 01:11 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yngndrw
Speaking of three point belts, as HANS devices are now required from 2016 and HANS devices require a proper harness does this mean that from 2016 all cars competing in MSA events will require full harnesses ?


I was under the impression that FHR's (frontal head restraints) are only required for single seater cars for 2016 (which all have proper harnesses anyway).

Ahh found the quote:

It was also decided that from 1 January 2016 an FIA-approved FHR will be mandatory for all Hill Climb and Sprint competitors, except for those in Period Defined Vehicles, Road-going Series Production Cars and Road-going Specialist Production Cars. Nonetheless, it will be recommended for those excepted competitors

So not nesecary for road going kit cars.

You can also by FHR's that strap to your body like the Simpson one:

http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/race/hans-devices/simpson-hybrid-sport-head-neck-restraint

[Edited on 23/10/15 by Doctor Derek Doctors]





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

http://www.t89.co.uk/single-seater-locost.html



Supplier of pin kits for Alloy Uprights, Caterham Wingstay mounts and Ball Joint to Rose Joint steering conversion kits.

www.t89.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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yngndrw

posted on 23/10/15 at 04:44 PM Reply With Quote
Ah that clears that up, good to know. Thanks.
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Mash

posted on 25/8/16 at 07:55 PM Reply With Quote
I picked up a Caterham Roll bar cheap on the bay, and it's the same bar as the one I had on my Caterham back in the late 90s. It was approved in those days (avatar is a pick of me in a Lotus7Club sprint at curborough), but I'm guessing it won't be now?

Any thoughts?

[img] Caterham FIA roll bar
Caterham FIA roll bar
[/img]

Of course, to make matters worse, I'm fitting it to my MK Indy, so I guess even if it is still legal, it won't be once fitted to the Indy?

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jeffw

posted on 25/8/16 at 08:33 PM Reply With Quote
It is MSA approved when used with the Petty Strut in a Caterham but I doubt it will be approved in a Indy. Best to ask the MSA technical department.





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Mash

posted on 14/1/17 at 08:21 PM Reply With Quote
There is now a chap on the MK Indy group on facebook, who has the potential to produce custom built hoops cages to MSA approved standards. He is currently offering 3 choices, rear hoop with diagonal and rear stays, the same with a bolt on front hoop, and the third whihc is rear hoop plus bolt on front hopp with side protection.

Would the first option be OK for hill climbs/sprints ?

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jeffw

posted on 15/1/17 at 07:36 AM Reply With Quote
Assuming it meets the size/material standards in the 2017 bluebook then yes.





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Mash

posted on 15/1/17 at 06:49 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks Jeff
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CosKev3

posted on 15/1/17 at 06:55 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mash
There is now a chap on the MK Indy group on facebook, who has the potential to produce custom built hoops cages to MSA approved standards. He is currently offering 3 choices, rear hoop with diagonal and rear stays, the same with a bolt on front hoop, and the third whihc is rear hoop plus bolt on front hopp with side protection.

Would the first option be OK for hill climbs/sprints ?


Any pics of his work?

Or a non Facebook link?

Will be fitting a full cage on mine next winter so researching different cages to see what I fancy

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hazbo65

posted on 17/1/17 at 04:58 PM Reply With Quote
I have a 1990 Westfield with their RAC roll bar. The MSA requirements for tube diameter is 40mm for pre-1995 cars. I sent the MSA an e mail and have had a response to confrim that this is the case. As far as I can see if your car is pre-1995 the old style RAC bar will meet the MSA requirements.
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