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bec engine upgrade

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 07:18 AM

Hi guys,

Since my last post about cars for sale in stoneleigh a couple of the lads really got me thinking about sticking a 14b r1 lump in a already road legal bec. My budget is strict unfortunately and what I'm trying to work out is total cost for build but im struggling and need your help. I have a 9k budget. I think I can get a half decent mk with a blade engine or similar for 6k. Sell the engine and possibly claim back 500 quid max leaving me 3.5k for new installation. Now I could probably pick up a 14b from malc for 2k obviously just engine wiring and ecu. Now I'm no fabricator and mk don't sell a cradle for this engine so they'll have to have the car in to fit engine to chassis approx 150 quid. From there I'm guessing ill need a prop adapter, the prop lengthened/shortened and exhaust manifold? After a brief chat with mk yesterday this should cost me in the region of around 500-750 quid. I believe that would be all the work that I can't achieve. I've then got to rewire it, re cool it and re fuel it, sort an exhaust and some form of dash unit or original clocks.

Am i right in saying that I've covered all areas or can someone point out a massive flaw in my plan and maybe list some costs of items to tell me whether I'm under over my budget.

Any help is always appreciated

Doctor Derek Doctors - 8/5/15 at 07:32 AM

I wouldn't count on needing a new prop and adaptor, if the car comes with an older R1 engine the adaptor will likely fit (all Honda ones are the same so I bet the same is true for Yamaha) and adaptor a decent prop should have sliding section so you should be able to position the engine to fit the prop more or less where the old engine was. If both are the case that's Ł400 saved, if you need a prop adaptor that's still Ł350 saved by keeping the same prop. In terms of cooling if its already a BEC and has a decent cooling system I doubt it will be much cost, mainly just hoses and connectors.

Again if its already and R1 the exhaust may fit or only need some minor changes to go onto the new engine. I thinking fueling may be the main headache especially if coming from a carb'd engine set-up.

If it was me I'd be looking for a car with an injection R1 engine to try to minimise work, also try some other fabricators, you might get the cradle done for less.

tyrrell - 8/5/15 at 07:59 AM

My dad is a fabricator, where in Kent are you ? Could easily make some mounts

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tyrrell
My dad is a fabricator, where in Kent are you ? Could easily make some mounts

The car will probably be based in orpington at my work but I live down in East malling. Thanks that's really helpful

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:09 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I wouldn't count on needing a new prop and adaptor, if the car comes with an older R1 engine the adaptor will likely fit (all Honda ones are the same so I bet the same is true for Yamaha) and adaptor a decent prop should have sliding section so you should be able to position the engine to fit the prop more or less where the old engine was. If both are the case that's Ł400 saved, if you need a prop adaptor that's still Ł350 saved by keeping the same prop. In terms of cooling if its already a BEC and has a decent cooling system I doubt it will be much cost, mainly just hoses and connectors.

Again if its already and R1 the exhaust may fit or only need some minor changes to go onto the new engine. I thinking fueling may be the main headache especially if coming from a carb'd engine set-up.

If it was me I'd be looking for a car with an injection R1 engine to try to minimise work, also try some other fabricators, you might get the cradle done for less.

Trying to find a car I like that's injected r1 for 6k is a big ask

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:12 AM

Ebay item number - 331544430238

This fits the bill I think

tyrrell - 8/5/15 at 08:15 AM

Orpington is very close to me 5 mins away

Doctor Derek Doctors - 8/5/15 at 08:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by kentmagpie

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I wouldn't count on needing a new prop and adaptor, if the car comes with an older R1 engine the adaptor will likely fit (all Honda ones are the same so I bet the same is true for Yamaha) and adaptor a decent prop should have sliding section so you should be able to position the engine to fit the prop more or less where the old engine was. If both are the case that's Ł400 saved, if you need a prop adaptor that's still Ł350 saved by keeping the same prop. In terms of cooling if its already a BEC and has a decent cooling system I doubt it will be much cost, mainly just hoses and connectors.

Again if its already and R1 the exhaust may fit or only need some minor changes to go onto the new engine. I thinking fueling may be the main headache especially if coming from a carb'd engine set-up.

If it was me I'd be looking for a car with an injection R1 engine to try to minimise work, also try some other fabricators, you might get the cradle done for less.

Trying to find a car I like that's injected r1 for 6k is a big ask

Depends if you are in a rush or not I suppose, I would definitely check with someone like AB perfomrmace if the Prop Adaptor and Exahsut from any other R1's will fit onto the flat plain R1 engine, if you know it does you know that you wont need to replace it so could spend some more money on the base car.

As an engineer I can only recomend one tool to work out costs... Spreadsheet!

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tyrrell
Orpington is very close to me 5 mins away

Haha that's even more of a result

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors

quote:
Originally posted by kentmagpie

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I wouldn't count on needing a new prop and adaptor, if the car comes with an older R1 engine the adaptor will likely fit (all Honda ones are the same so I bet the same is true for Yamaha) and adaptor a decent prop should have sliding section so you should be able to position the engine to fit the prop more or less where the old engine was. If both are the case that's Ł400 saved, if you need a prop adaptor that's still Ł350 saved by keeping the same prop. In terms of cooling if its already a BEC and has a decent cooling system I doubt it will be much cost, mainly just hoses and connectors.

Again if its already and R1 the exhaust may fit or only need some minor changes to go onto the new engine. I thinking fueling may be the main headache especially if coming from a carb'd engine set-up.

If it was me I'd be looking for a car with an injection R1 engine to try to minimise work, also try some other fabricators, you might get the cradle done for less.

Trying to find a car I like that's injected r1 for 6k is a big ask

Depends if you are in a rush or not I suppose, I would definitely check with someone like AB perfomrmace if the Prop Adaptor and Exahsut from any other R1's will fit onto the flat plain R1 engine, if you know it does you know that you wont need to replace it so could spend some more money on the base car.

As an engineer I can only recomend one tool to work out costs... Spreadsheet!

Totally agree I'm trying to get a spreadsheet drawn up so that I eliminate all hidden nasties. I appreciate things will happen that I don't forsee but trying to get an accurate cost to see if it's worth doing or not

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 11:17 AM

Oh man I was to late on that indy. Sold

kj - 8/5/15 at 11:41 AM

Prop adaptor on here for a CBR 1000 cheap, most bikes are 13 splines

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 12:46 PM

What sump are you planning on using? And are you fitting power commander and mapping etc? There's another Ł1k gone!
I agree with the others and look for one with a fuel injected motor already in!
Phillip pearn is selling a STM on uphillracers and ebay which is under your budget for your donor car and there got the motor installed already and is a very well sorted chassis! And a very quick car

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 12:48 PM

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/161694644127?nav=SEARCH

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 01:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
What sump are you planning on using? And are you fitting power commander and mapping etc? There's another Ł1k gone!
I agree with the others and look for one with a fuel injected motor already in!
Phillip pearn is selling a STM on uphillracers and ebay which is under your budget for your donor car and there got the motor installed already and is a very well sorted chassis! And a very quick car

Im after a post 2009 14b engine. that's running a 2005 5vy lump. I love the noise of the crossplane crank makes and that's why I want to put one in a car. I appreciate that's a nice car and its good money but Im pretty positive ill still need to modify it after ive dropped the other engine in. Im quite sure that from 2009 upwards it was a complete new engine and design

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 01:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kentmagpie

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
What sump are you planning on using? And are you fitting power commander and mapping etc? There's another Ł1k gone!
I agree with the others and look for one with a fuel injected motor already in!
Phillip pearn is selling a STM on uphillracers and ebay which is under your budget for your donor car and there got the motor installed already and is a very well sorted chassis! And a very quick car

Im after a post 2009 14b engine. that's running a 2005 5vy lump. I love the noise of the crossplane crank makes and that's why I want to put one in a car. I appreciate that's a nice car and its good money but Im pretty positive ill still need to modify it after ive dropped the other engine in. Im quite sure that from 2009 upwards it was a complete new engine and design

Malc at YE said that all the engines he sold have only used baffled sump tops. Obviously id have to budget in power comm 5 and a remap

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 01:23 PM

I'm sure I heard several horror stories regarding those motors! Possibly installation problems rather than any design flaws but as far as I'm aware there are very very few race cars using these motors but several using the 04-06 motors.
But if you intend on doing it then anything is possible. The only thing to guarentee is it will take longer than expected and cost more than expected

[Edited on 8/5/15 by daniel mason]

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 01:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
I'm sure I heard several horror stories regarding those motors! Possibly installation problems rather than any design flaws but as far as I'm aware there are very very few race cars using these motors but several using the 04-06 motors.
But if you intend on doing it then anything is possible. The only thing to guarentee is it will take longer than expected and cost more than expected

[Edited on 8/5/15 by daniel mason]

appreciate the advice hence why im hesitant to proceed as no one really knows a lot about them. I had an 06 r1 lump in my first bec and absolutely loved it. It was bomb proof as well but I just want to move on now and try these late engines. Malc also that he is now starting to sell these lumps a lot more as old r1 stocks are depleting. He said hes never heard of any issues and the grass track boys love em. Im in no rush so may just hold back and see what happens. In the meantime ill keep my eyes peeled as something nice is bound to come up for sale soon

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 06:52 PM

Mr bates has replied to my question regarding later r1 engines and it's not for good reading for me

Message:Hi
Sorry for late reply - we are monstrously busy at the mo and it has me running around like a loon
Re engine - personally I would definately not pursue this particular engine in fact Yamaha started to lose the plot when they got rid of the 20 valve heads back in 2007. Since then most of the mods to models have made them more user friendly to the bikers and less and less relevant to the world of bike engined cars. It was bad with the 2007 and 2008 engines - 28 major failures in a season is just hopeless and to be fair the cross plane may sound nice but it's best left in a bike. As with anything if you want to leave the more popular route and do something different it is likely to be a more costly route as you will be the one finding out the various weaknesses and figuring out solutions. To put this in perspective - it cost me over ten grand in blown motors, dyno time and development to get the 2008 on blades sorted sump wise and a host of install parts to make them work well in cars.
R1 wise we don't even do a baffle for one it is such an uncommon choice
Hope I haven't rained on your parade but believe in saying it as it is
Andy

Back to the drawing board. Or msybe wait a few years for people to figure out the best setup for this engine in a bec

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 07:17 PM

The noise shouldn't sway your choice imo! I'd say performance over sound and the 04-06 motors offer rapid reliable performance. The later blades even more so but at a cost!
The there's the busa which is a proven track/race package with dry sump and power depends on how deep your pockets are!

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 07:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The noise shouldn't sway your choice imo! I'd say performance over sound and the 04-06 motors offer rapid reliable performance. The later blades even more so but at a cost!
The there's the busa which is a proven track/race package with dry sump and power depends on how deep your pockets are!

Had the pleasure of owning a busa but a non dry sumped one. I never tracked it. Plus the car was badly setup and eventually sold it to another member on hers. Did go mind. Just think I'll look for value for money now. 9k has got me alot of motor before so ill strike when the time is right

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 07:52 PM

Noise can make a big difference just imo. Check this out:

https://youtu.be/vOCTePKLJds

[img]http://[/img]

[Edited on 8/5/15 by kentmagpie]

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 07:57 PM

This was my old busa car. Sounds different to the MEV but I loved the noise of it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOcJ3fRVI8

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
This was my old busa car. Sounds different to the MEV but I loved the noise of it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOcJ3fRVI8

Awesome

nice looking car as well. What was it? Have you only got track cars?

I've only owned 7 style cars all in my photo archive. A 2006 r1 mk indy in red, black mk indy busa and red/silver gbs zero gsxr k4. Loved em all but just wanted a side step. May still go car engine forced induction style.

If that atomic was for sale now I'd by that all day long

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 08:18 PM

There's a turbo Mazda mx5 roadrunner on pistonheads but it's track only! May be possible to Iva that?
Had many kits over the years but now competition cars. the blue one was a radical prosport, now I have a force single seat hillclimber!
You will get something more than decent for Ł9k

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
There's a turbo Mazda mx5 roadrunner on pistonheads but it's track only! May be possible to Iva that?
Had many kits over the years but now competition cars. the blue one was a radical prosport, now I have a force single seat hillclimber!
You will get something more than decent for Ł9k

I'll go and check that out

I take it your avatar is your force? What engine is that running? I'll have a quick nose a report back exactly what's for sale around my budget

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 08:30 PM

It's in track day cars on pistonheads. Looks smart too!
Yeah the force has a k5/6 gsxr 1000 as the class is limited to 1100cc

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 08:32 PM

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/track-day-cars/track-only/sr2-rrr-turbo-252-bhp/3943136

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
It's in track day cars on pistonheads. Looks smart too!
Yeah the force has a k5/6 gsxr 1000 as the class is limited to 1100cc

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/track-day-cars/road-legal/fabulous-supercharged-cosworth-dax-trackday-car/4066483

This looks wild but nothing like that sr2. Shame it isn't roadworthy

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/track-day-cars/track-only/sr2-rrr-turbo-252-bhp/3943136

Wow i love that car

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:47 PM

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/westfield/other-models/westfield-2001/4066881

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/bike-powered-cars/cars/mk-indy-r-----2008/4050672

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/bike-powered-cars/cars/grinnall-scorpion-mark-3--bmw-1200cc/4001240

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/mini-classic/all-mini-classics/mini-vtec-1-8--b18c/3278922

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/westfield/other-models/1998-westfield-seight-4-6l/3969943

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 08:48 PM

This is a k6 gsxr 1000 force at TWF
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93ySmkRYGJc

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 08:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
This is a k6 gsxr 1000 force at TWF
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93ySmkRYGJc

Fuck, that is absolutely insane

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 08:56 PM

I like the Orange blacktop Zetec westy apart from the wheels!
And love that mini!

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 09:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
I like the Orange blacktop Zetec westy apart from the wheels!
And love that mini!

The mini is a personal fav but my misses who is in charge of my cash has said I ain't getting a mini

yeah the wheels on the westy are shite. How much to get a car road worthy in terms of lights, switches etc? 1k

Loving the mazda. Looking at it as a project

daniel mason - 8/5/15 at 09:06 PM

The Iva/ tax and insurance will be around Ł1000
That doesn't include parts.

kentmagpie - 8/5/15 at 09:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The Iva/ tax and insurance will be around Ł1000
That doesn't include parts.

Tax and insurance go through my firm but the iva I'd have to stump up for. Plus there's correct positioning and switchgear and exhaust emissions?

kentmagpie - 11/5/15 at 04:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The Iva/ tax and insurance will be around Ł1000
That doesn't include parts.

I'm not gonna bother with the track car now. I spoke to mike (owner) of road runner racing today and what a nice bloke he is. Told me alot of stuff regarding the car in question and getting it through an IVA. He told me the car hasn't got a log book from the donor which would be my first stumbling block. From there it'd need a fair but of work to get it through and to me I just don't see it worth it. I was close to just offering the guy a figure and just picking it up and going from there glad I didn't.

Most of the people I speak to in the kit car game are really nice blokes who have a lot of time for you. Mikes another to add to the list now along with andy b, malc from YE and Graham from flatshifter.

Gonna hold out now and watch the market like a hawk. Pounce when needed

CosKev3 - 11/5/15 at 04:20 PM

A logbook from donor is only needed if going age related number plate,not a problem with getting it tested and registered as a Q plate.

kentmagpie - 11/5/15 at 04:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
A logbook from donor is only needed if going age related number plate,not a problem with getting it tested and registered as a Q plate.

Tbh it'd been handy especially if the vehicle was pre 92 as it'd made emissions a load easier. Hats off to all you boys that build and comply to the regulations these days. Some of the stuff amazes me. Also yet 3 years later when it needs an MOT some of the stuff won't even matter.