Hi All
With the car practically finished, I went to start her up this morning and it just won't play ball!
I've got fuel in the tank, all connectors are in and have been tested previously, throttle is in the correct position, battery is fully charged,
gear is neutral, all fuses present and correct amperage etc. Engine has run fine since I installed it into the chassis.
Turning the ignition on the fuel pump primes and the throttle thingy (that's the best way I can describe it!) moves as it should. Hit the start
button and it momentarily fires into life, then dies less than a second afterward. in some cases it struggles to even start. Starter motor is turning
over fine and it sounds like we have a spark, but I've no idea if it's a weak one?
The only things I've done to the bike loom since the startup video is put a momentary on-off switch at the end of the two starter wires (that
would have gone to the bike's starter button) and a slight mod to the engine earth cable- it was originally connected to the negative cable
coming from the battery, but I had to remove it as I've changed the lead, it now sits on it's own ring connector touching the negative cable
at a chassis earth point (I've used the originally engine earth lead, just shortened it).
My thoughts are that my fiddling with new battery cables and the engine earth cable are probably causing a weak spark, but I've really no
idea.
Anyone have any suggestions as to what it may be or to a better way to troubleshoot the problem?
Thanks!
Ben.
Bike engines are very fussy on spark plugs, I suggest you remove and attack with a blow torch insert while still hot or buy some new ones.
I'd agree with Mark. Try a new set of spark plugs.
Phil
As said above, mine used to be terrible, if it didnt start first time the plugs would be wet through and it would be out with the blow torch. Never did it again after having it mapped at daytuner though.
Hey guys, thanks to everyone for the advice- I took the plugs out this afternoon and they still seemed a little damp. My biggest concern is what
caused it to flood in the first place!
Took some shots of the plugs as close as I could, anyone know if these look ok? I've no idea how old they are, but they don't look too bad
to me- no idea though!
What's the best thing to do in terms of the cylinders? Should I leave the stick coils out for a bit and just cover over the holes to stop dust?
Guidance is most appreciated!
Thanks!
Ben.
Either give them a blast with a blow torch, or buy a set of new plugs and drop them in. Above all though, you need to resist the temptation to keep
fireing the engine up just to hear it. (I know it's difficult) 
Personally, I'd give those plugs a blast with a blow torch to clean them
up a bit and have a spare set to hand for the first actual drive.
Phil
ETA - I wouldn't be concerned about flooding. BEC's are fickle about clean plugs. You won't have any problems though once it's
actually on the road.......
[Edited on 5-9-11 by Hellfire]
Check the sparkplug gaps.
Hi Guys
I've checked the plug gaps, all are between 0.8mm and 0.9mm as it says in the ZX10R Service Manual. Took a plug out to check it was sparking, no
problems there. Now that the petrol has left the combustion chambers, it seems to start without hesitation, but as soon as it starts and I take my
finger off the starter switch, it dies again without fail!
Suggestions/help would again be appreciated!
Thankyou,
Ben.
P.s. There's a new set of plugs on the way anyway, but I don't think it's plugs now, having explained the last symptom?
[Edited on 8/9/11 by BigMac]
Seems like its an immobilization issue as its firing then nothing else.
Also try putting a jump lead on the negative side of the battery onto the chassis to see if that helps.
[Edited on 8/9/11 by franky]
Thanks for the reply Franky :-)
I double checked the Ignition circuits last night, the resistor is still there and all connections are working.
I did however call Mark from MAC#1, he mentioned that the first port of call should be the Tilt Sensor (Vehicle-Down Sensor is the name in the owners
manual) as he's had this happen to a customer previously. I've got the instructions on how to test whether it's working, but I remember
when I modded the loom that I ran out of heat-shrink, so I crimped the connectors instead, so here's hoping it's just a loose wire that
I've created by moving stuff around under the dash (possibly creating pressure where I shouldn't have been).
Also read on a ZX10R forum that if the sensor is not working correctly, it will let the bike fire up, but will kill the fuel pump after 3 seconds if
the voltage is not within the tolerable range.
Time to get the multimeter out! Here's hoping this works :-)
If it ran ok before you installed the momentary on/off switch, try taking it out and see if that's causing the problem....
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
If it ran ok before you installed the momentary on/off switch, try taking it out and see if that's causing the problem....
Hey guys
Thought I'd resurrect my old thread rather than start a new one.
First of all, hope everyone's had a great Christmas and is looking forward to the New Year :-)
I'm still having the same problems trying to get the ZX10R lump started. Over the past few weeks I've spent some time checking the loom wire
by wire against the diagram, inspecting for faults and checking continuity. I didn't find any issues and the only thing I've done is replace
my crimped connections with soldered and heat-shrinked joints. Gave the battery a full charge yesterday and figured I'd try again today, hooked
everything up as it should be, turn the key and the fuel pump fires up and the sub-throttle valve sets itself, come to turn it over and if anything
it's gotten worse! It tries to turn over but barely moves, even with a fully charged battery? It sounds like something's seized but I really
don't know. I managed to get a
video of it all going on- I
daren't try to turn it over anymore in case I do some long lasting damage?!
Does anyone have any suggestions or can possibly have a look over it for me (in exchange for some beer tokens if you can help!)
Thanks,
Ben.
that battery sounds knackered to me & with wet plugs its flooding, take the plugs out, connect a battery charger on fast charge to your battery
& turn the motor over to clear any fuel out, making sure the plugs are dry stick them back in & try again on fast charge, my blade has manual
choke & is pretty sensitive so considering its so mild at the mo i dont use much else it floods
[Edited on 31/12/11 by andyfiggy2002]
Thanks, Andy.
I took the plugs out shortly after posting the thread, they were damp at the time, so left them out for a few days to dry whilst the weather was
good.
Since my last post I've tried the following:
If you earth the engine and then touch the live jump cable to the terminal on the starter it should spin over normally.This will tell you the motor and starter are ok.
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfezxr
If you earth the engine and then touch the live jump cable to the terminal on the starter it should spin over normally.This will tell you the motor and starter are ok.
if all else fails maybe, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can call Andy Bates from AB Performance, the famous Dragons Den
TV star & all round BEC expert, he'll know whats wrong
LINK
Come on Ben, I need you to find out as I have been following your progress closely .
Just about to change my zx9 to a zx10 and I'm not that great with electrics either.
Brad.
quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Come on Ben, I need you to find out as I have been following your progress closely .
Just about to change my zx9 to a zx10 and I'm not that great with electrics either.
Brad.
We all live and learn.
OK, so we're now getting somewhere...
I put a proper cable from the engine to the -ve terminal on the battery, as I wasn't sure if the 'engine earth' cable built into the
loom was causing the fault. With both leads in place it's now cranking freely without hesitation. Unfortunately though, still not starting:
http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view¤t=7d2175eb.mp4
Am definitely getting a spark though:
http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view¤t=7284118a.mp4
The fuel pump does prime and you can hear it working, but I'm not sure if fuel is getting there? When I removed one of the plugs I couldn't
smell anything immediately after trying to start it... Looking like that's the next thing to look at, now.
Time to have a think of what else it can be!
Updates soon!
Ben.
Next step mate, take your fuel delivery pipe off the throttle body end and put it into an empty milk bottle, then turn on the ignition so that the pump primes, now measure how much fuel you have in the bottle, theres a trouble shooting guide in the manual, do you have genuine kwak manual? There is a filter in the fuel pump, but tbh i've never had any issues with them. How old is the fuel btw? those iridium spark plugs don't like stale fuel and are very finiky.
OK, latest update!
Took the fuel pipe off at the throttle body end today, fuel seems to be pumping at about the right rate according to the manual (yes Daz, have the
Kawasaki Ninja manual, downloaded it from a bike forum). As is now the tradition with each of my posts, here's the vid:
http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view¤t=37c39d5b.mp4
I'm getting baffled now, as I was hoping it's fuel related! The good news is that it's actually starting now, but as soon as you take
your finger off the starter button, it dies again (back to the same problem!):
http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view¤t=ec64394d.mp4
I've checked that the bike-down sensor is functioning correctly, it's running the right voltages all round? As far as I'm aware, any
other switch I may have missed wouldn't allow the fuel pump to prime or the thing to crank, so I'm now properly baffled as to what it is?
Any ideas people?
Thanks!
Ben.
when it does start can you catch it on the throttle and get it to rev? I'd be tempted to try another set of plugs, only thing is at £40+ a set they're not cheap, but I have had 2 plugs fail simultaneously on my old ZX10r between races. Might be worth a try? Shame you're not closer to me, I have same engine in my car and a 2005 race bike in the garage, so plenty of parts to swap and try!
i had something similar with mine, it was down to either the crank or cam sensor, it'd run like a bag of poo if you got the throttle just right and turned it over for a bit, died as soon as it went back to idle
I had similar problems with my ZX10R. Not teaching you to suck eggs, but are all the connectors correctly fitted ? I managed to fit a brown connection
plug to a grey plug, Doh!
They were not idiot proof...
quote:
Originally posted by Toprivetguns
I had similar problems with my ZX10R. Not teaching you to suck eggs, but are all the connectors correctly fitted ? I managed to fit a brown connection plug to a grey plug, Doh!
They were not idiot proof...
Sounds to me that you have wired the starter switch so that it powers the 'stop/run' switch only when the starter button is being
pressed.
That would cause the engine to stop immediately the starter button is released.
Check that the run switch is powered independently to the starter button.
As for wet plugs - on bikes they never seem to recover.
As a temporary measure a good heat from a blowtorch can get them working but best option is to replace.
(but wait until you know that the engine will run before you fit an expensive new set of plugs).
quote:
Originally posted by minitici
Sounds to me that you have wired the starter switch so that it powers the 'stop/run' switch only when the starter button is being pressed.
That would cause the engine to stop immediately the starter button is released.
Check that the run switch is powered independently to the starter button.
As for wet plugs - on bikes they never seem to recover.
As a temporary measure a good heat from a blowtorch can get them working but best option is to replace.
(but wait until you know that the engine will run before you fit an expensive new set of plugs).
Thanks to everyone for the replies!
I'm at the garage now, so will first of all unplug and reseat all the connectors after giving them a quick clean and light spray of WD40. But
agree with you both on the starter button wiring issue, as it is actually starting practically straight after me pressing the button, it just dies
when I let go of the switch. So next up is to check my wiring!
Update soon :-)
Ben.
OK, so just to be on the safe side I double checked the starter circuit this morning, all wired up as it should be.
With a fully charged battery I managed to get it to start and run for a few seconds, even when my finger was off the starter button. Took the plugs
out afterward and they're damp with fuel, so am assuming they aren't doing their job properly. Had a go at starting it according to some
pointers from Mark at MAC1, but as this is my first bike engine I'm assuming I'm not doing something properly.
Luckily I have a few friends who are into their bikes, will see if I can get one of them round to see how they'd get a lazy engine to start up
again.
Will update when I've had another go!
Thanks again everyone, feels like I'm getting somewhere now!
Ben.
Ben, having read and re-read your posts I can't determine if you've tried new spark plugs yet or not. If not, definitely give them a go. You
may be pleasantly surprised...........
Phil
Those are iridium plugs and I have never had any success cleaning them and getting them working again. Can you get the CR9E non-iridium to get it started ? They are a quarter of the price.
Well up to now I'd not changed the plugs (I figured it must be an electrical issue caused by me and nothing to do with the mechanical side of
things!). Have managed to get a set of CR9EIA-9 plugs for £32 delivered from Camskill, which I don't think is too bad! Hopefully they'll
turn up soon :-)
Does anyone have any suggestions on preparations/pre-cursors before I load in the new plugs and start it up? I want to give it the best possible
chance to start with the new plugs, rather than start temporarily, die, then dowse the plugs in fuel!
Thanks,
Ben.
I had a something the same with my indy zx12r
came down that the powercommander was faulty, can u just remove the powercommander from ur engine and try again.
Took me 2 weeks to discover it was the PC..... grrrrrrr
send it back to them and got a new one free off charge
greetings Daniel
quote:
Originally posted by Smartripper ... can u just remove the powercommander from ur engine and try again ...
Have you got those plugs yet Ben.
Yep, arrived yesterday, checked the gaps on them last night.
Am waiting for a friend of mine who's big into his bikes to come round and give me a hand starting it up. I'm wanting to make sure every
other possible condition is a good as possible before I drop the new plugs in! Update due shortly!
Well, full set of new and gapped plugs went in over the weekend, still not starting! 
After trying to turn it over I took the plugs out to see if they were damp with fuel- seems the opposite now! Take them out and they seem dry, no
smell of fuel on them. Previously when trying to start it up I was getting some smoke out of the exhaust and could smell fuel, whereas now,
nothing!
To double check the fuel pump, I disconnected the fuel line and turned on the ignition- fuel did come out but it was an off colour- it was almost a
light bronze (still translucent, just a different colour). A couple of primes of the pump and it was back to normal. The fuel-rail was under pressure,
as it hissed as I took the line off it (covered with a cloth!).
Suppose my next port of call now is an automotive sparky or similar, as I really am totally out of ideas now!
Ben.
But is your fuel pump staying on Ben? Like most injected bikes the ZX10 pump comes on when you switch the ignition/ECU on but then goes off after about 2 seconds until the engine's turning. I think it looks for a signal from either the crank sensor or the cam sensor, not sure which.
quote:
Originally posted by BobM ... But is your fuel pump staying on Ben? ... I think it looks for a signal from either the crank sensor or the cam sensor, not sure which...
You should be able to hear the fuel pump solenoid clicking on and off. Trouble is you won't hear it while the engine's turning ... Can you
check the 12v feed to your fuel pump, or the output to it from the fuel pump solenoid and check you're getting 12 volts there when the
engine's turning?
I did work it out when I rewired my loom (I stripped out the relays controlling the interlocks and substituted a 68k ohm resistor for the tipover
switch) and now can't remember exactly which inputs control what but the ECU controls 12v feed to the injection system (blue wires IIRC) based on
getting the right inputs from the various sensors and interlocks, so worth checking your sidestand, kill switch and tipover sensor wiring etc.
Well...
it starts! Sort of...
My bike sparky turned up on Saturday morning and we managed to identify (what we think was the cause of the problems) a loose earth connection.
Originally I'd stripped all the paint and zinc coating from part of a chassis rail, tapped a hole into it, then bolted the loom's earth
connection to that; the wires weren't properly loose, but not as tight as they should have been. To sort that out I've drilled right the way
through and run a bolt and nut through it, instead...
The reason I say 'sort of', is that I came to start it this morning and it wouldn't go... Now my primary thought is that it's
probably because there's little/no fuel in the tank (confirmed by connecting up the fuel gauge the needle moving the smallest amount from the
stop... Because nothing has changed between it starting and me trying it this morning!
So in summary, looks like all the issue was, was a poor quality earth (and I'm to blame!).
Thanks to everyone for your advice and guidance, seems my key learn from this is that even the smallest of things can cause you big problems,
electrics wise!
Ben.