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Dutton on the V5 but it's actually a Sylva Striker.....
Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 11/9/17 at 03:18 PM

Knowing me and my history of cars I'm sure this is going to get complicated.

I've committed to buying a car - it's a striker. but the v5 says duttonkit. the car is on a q plate. I'm not sure on the background but the mot checker on line says it's a 1600 (it was a crossflow I think) - the actual engine in the car at the moment is a 1.4k series.

It's had MOT's (in it's current guise) over the last 4 years (nothing in the last 18 months however as the owner hasn't been well, hence the sale to me in fact).

He tried to change the engine size (wrote to the DVLA) but they refused to acknowledge this as they felt he was trying to go down a level on the car tax?

So - my questions are these.

Do I need to re-iva the car, once in my possession or should I just leave it and carry on?

Will there be implications for insurance for example?

I'm not going to be driving it on the road til these issues are sorted of course. I'm going to do a trackday in Oct and see how it goes.

Thanks


loggyboy - 11/9/17 at 03:23 PM

Its a ringer - if you can walk away.
If not then yes it will require IVA and re-regestering.


theconrodkid - 11/9/17 at 03:36 PM

if it,s not as described on the V5 then it is a ringer, i cant see why you cant walk away


Angel Acevedo - 11/9/17 at 03:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
if it,s not as described on the V5 then it is a ringer, i cant see why you cant walk away


I would think so too...
If you buy beeef and get pork...
The problem may be getting your money back.


ian locostzx9rc2 - 11/9/17 at 04:01 PM

As said it's a ringer walk away or if it's very cheap Iva it .


The Knobs - 11/9/17 at 04:04 PM

Basically a ringed car, don't buy it. Funnily enough one of my old Strikers turned into a TR Race car overnight and was sold by a garage without being spotted. C7 ALP if anyone ever comes across it


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 11/9/17 at 04:16 PM

Trouble is I believe the story. I don't get the impression there's anything untoward.

At the price it's v good value.

Its been v well put together imo.

I'm not going to get another chance to buy something like this at the price imo.

What will I need to do to IVA it and re-register it?


coyoteboy - 11/9/17 at 04:26 PM

Might be a true story, but it's still registered incorrectly and you'll have to fix at least that.


femster87 - 11/9/17 at 04:27 PM

Don't kid yourself into buying it. If you do, factor 1000 in for IVA and the trouble.


neilp1 - 11/9/17 at 04:29 PM

quote:


What will I need to do to IVA it and re-register it?


Over 500 quid and a trip to IVA test center where it will probably fail and cost another 90 quid.


loggyboy - 11/9/17 at 04:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
Trouble is I believe the story. I don't get the impression there's anything untoward.

At the price it's v good value.

Its been v well put together imo.

I'm not going to get another chance to buy something like this at the price imo.

What will I need to do to IVA it and re-register it?


What is the 'story'?

I love a bit of non fiction. I'll give you my summary without even knowing:

A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.

It may not have been the chap you bought it off, but he may/will have then brought in ignorance, which is no excuse.

There is no other reasonable reason why the car would be registered as something its not.

Move the same principles to a tin top - if you were buying a BMW but it was registered as a Fiesta, would you even think about buying?

[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


The Knobs - 11/9/17 at 04:49 PM

Treat as an unfinished project and the price may not be as good as you think.


coyoteboy - 11/9/17 at 04:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


jossey - 11/9/17 at 05:00 PM

The Dutton club look on these sites and report them to the DVla and then you get a letter the cosy if an iva is nothing compared to the cost of getting the car ready for the iva


cliftyhanger - 11/9/17 at 05:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


leon51274 - 11/9/17 at 05:46 PM

Been there and done that.

Years ago I bought a locost based ron champion dutton special, at the time I had no knowledge of kit cars, a year later and probably thick end of 6k less in my pocket I then became a little more knowledgeable on kit cars and realized I had a ringer. I'd even managed to get an agreed value for insurance purposes by supplying pictures of the car! I couldn't live with the fact I was driving a ringer and so I striped it down and sold all the parts, I still have the dutton v5 and have no idea how I would get dvla to just scrap it, i suspect they wouldn't so I'm more than likely stuck with it. I now have a fully road legal haynes roadster and my conscience is clear.


motorcycle_mayhem - 11/9/17 at 06:18 PM

Your initial question about having to 're-IVA' the car, had me smiling. The car, has of course, never been IVA'd (the Striker I mean) unless it once was and then it's IVA'd identity given to another Striker (or something else). If the Striker has never been IVA'd, it may have not been built with the IVA in mind, so the hassle and cost getting it compliant may well be considerable.

You'd probably be disassembling the car entirely, rebuilding, photographing, logging, etc... well, I would.

Any insurance 'policy' you obtain for a Striker, under the guise of a Dutton, won't be usable if anything happens. Same if you bought a Westfield registered as a 'Ford Convertible' or an MK Indy as a Rickman Sports.

Keep it on the track, or IVA it for the road. Alternatively walk away.


fishywick - 11/9/17 at 06:27 PM

You asked for advice on Pistonheads on 8th Sept, the first line of the first reply was this......

"Check the log book says Sylva or raw striker on it and not escort/Sierra/dutton/robinhood etc. It should describe the car. If not walk away"

That wasn't me but it was very sound advice, and still is.


kingster996 - 11/9/17 at 06:31 PM

As others have said it's a ringer. So it is not legal. It is not a good idea to buy it.

If you are going to buy it (foolish move) it will need an IVA - but bear in mind that to get a registration you need to show it is "amateur built" and that means showing evidence of how you built it.

So how will you do that?

Walk away. Do not buy. It is not a bargain!

[Edited on 11/9/17 by kingster996]


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 11/9/17 at 07:07 PM

He had a folder of pictures, talked me through the build, showed me some of the work and thought that has gone into the car.

I'm really upset. I've not parted company with any money yet. He's moting it and then I'm away so it was October before I'd be able to pick it up. I've been driving it in my head however (if that makes any sense).

I feel he's an honourable man; you know when someone is on the level within 5 secs of meeting them. I'm going to go back to him and ask some harder questions.

And you're right. I can't insure it etc when it's a Ford and I'm saying it's a beemer. Just not going to work. At the price I'm paying however it might still be a worthy track day car (but I want to use more often than 4 times a year).
Damn, damn, damn and three times damn! Oh wait.


Sam_68 - 11/9/17 at 07:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
I feel he's an honourable man; you know when someone is on the level within 5 secs of meeting them. I'm going to go back to him and ask some harder questions.


The obvious solution, if he's really as straight as you think, is to make the purchase conditional upon him getting the car IVA'd and correctly registered a a Sylva.

The engine capacity issue doesn't ring true, either: the DVLA cannot refuse outright to change the engine capacity on a suspicion: the most they could do is to demand proper evidence, which it relatively straightforward to provide (...if the car will stand up to basic scrutiny, of course).


Toys2 - 11/9/17 at 07:18 PM

It sounds like we are being tough, but I can't imagine a single legal scenario where a Striker ends up registered as a Dutton
He needs to explain how this happened

As a Striker owner (pre IVA) I can imagine them being hard to get through an IVA without being built with the test in mind

May I ask the ball park price?


trextr7monkey - 11/9/17 at 07:24 PM

I have had over 20 different kit cars and would not touch anything that's not correctly registered- life's too short and anything to do with DVLA / VOSA is long winded and troublesome. The dodgey car registered with Dutton documents has been a standing joke for many years to the extent that all Duttons were being dragged down in value and opinion until a few years ago when they decided to tackle the issue head on. There's a bloke called Adrian who is on here and he has worked extremely hard to clean up the mess with the help of other enthusiasts so that they can continue to enjoy their legal Dutton Duttons so maybe mentioning that to the vendor might push price to the point where the parts exceed the value of the car at which point you can rebuild/ break without it costing too much ultimately
Hth
Mike
.


Ugg10 - 11/9/17 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fishywick
You asked for advice on Pistonheads on 8th Sept, the first line of the first reply was this......

"Check the log book says Sylva or raw striker on it and not escort/Sierra/dutton/robinhood etc. It should describe the car. If not walk away"

That wasn't me but it was very sound advice, and still is.


Me :-)

It would need to be less than 2k IMO, probably what you will get for the parts if you broke the car, obviously de-registering the car with the dvla and selling the chassis as unregistered or for track only. That gives you a budget of about 2k to rebuild and get through Iva (agree with budget of 1k to get through test alone without remedial action), remembering the engine, if it is later than 1995 will need injection and cat converter and a letter of proof of age from rover (hmmmmm). A basic live axle striker with standard 1.4 k series on escort front discs and rear drums and a std type 9 when properly road registered and IVA' is probably worth about 5k at best if it is nice as a guide.


kingster996 - 11/9/17 at 07:40 PM

It really does not matter how honest or honourable the seller is, the car is a ringer. Full stop. End of.

Chances are that sooner or later the DVLA or VOSA will get wind of it and you're screwed. Or you have an accident and you're screwed.

Therefore in order to work out if you should buy it, you need to ascertain if the value of the components (less the time taken to strip and sell) are worth the asking price. Or alternatively if the added cost and potentially huge amount of hassle to get it IVA'd is worth the asking price.

The reality is that there are probsnly loads of legit kit cars out there for sale at this time of year that will end up costing you less in time and money.


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 11/9/17 at 07:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fishywick
You asked for advice on Pistonheads on 8th Sept, the first line of the first reply was this......

"Check the log book says Sylva or raw striker on it and not escort/Sierra/dutton/robinhood etc. It should describe the car. If not walk away"

That wasn't me but it was very sound advice, and still is.


You're right - and I just thought 'oh no' when I heard that. But despite that I thought there would be a way to rectify it without having to take every panel off and rebuild the entire car to demonstrate I'd built it.


Perhaps I should put some photos up to demonstrate? But I can't put too many - nothing that would identify the car etc.

I've saved and saved (hard when you've got 3 kids, the mortgage etc etc) and tbh it's now or never. Next yr we've chosen to go private on education for the kids - everything I earn will go into that.

That's why I'm upset. Just see it as a last chance tbh


kingster996 - 11/9/17 at 08:37 PM

Sorry I don't understand. Why now or never?

Buy a ringer now and you'll regret it.

If you think you will be buying a huge bargain, remember it will be an illegal one. So will possibly end up costing you.

Posting pics might help but reality is that unless it has some really nice components then 1.4 k series striker isn't really going to be worth that much let alone one that is not correctly registered. So unless it's under 2k and you have another 1500 to 2k to spend, then you are on a road to nowhere in my opinion.

Listen carefully to the advice you have asked for and been given


loggyboy - 11/9/17 at 08:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
[I thought there would be a way to rectify it without having to take every panel off and rebuild the entire car to demonstrate I'd built it.



You dont have to prove you built it. You could drive it from purchase to IVA and theres a small chance it would pass first time. Chances are there some things that need work. Most likely emissions, interior/exterior projections.


Benzine - 11/9/17 at 09:09 PM






Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 12/9/17 at 07:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
It really does not matter how honest or honourable the seller is, the car is a ringer. Full stop. End of.

Chances are that sooner or later the DVLA or VOSA will get wind of it and you're screwed. Or you have an accident and you're screwed.

Therefore in order to work out if you should buy it, you need to ascertain if the value of the components (less the time taken to strip and sell) are worth the asking price. Or alternatively if the added cost and potentially huge amount of hassle to get it IVA'd is worth the asking price.

The reality is that there are probsnly loads of legit kit cars out there for sale at this time of year that will end up costing you less in time and money.


yes to injection, yes to cat converter but that letter.......no chance I think.

I'm really upset - I'd totally bought into this car mentally. No money has changed hands as yet - car is being mot'd etc etc prior to pick up.


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 12/9/17 at 07:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
[I thought there would be a way to rectify it without having to take every panel off and rebuild the entire car to demonstrate I'd built it.



You dont have to prove you built it. You could drive it from purchase to IVA and theres a small chance it would pass first time. Chances are there some things that need work. Most likely emissions, interior/exterior projections.


Thanks Kingster996 - I do hear you and the excellent advice I've received.

Just trying to find a way to stand by my word (I've given him my word etc etc). Incidentally it's fine on emissions (I realise that's incidental and there are far more serious things potentially but at least that's something).


nick205 - 12/9/17 at 08:00 AM

Read most of the thread and the car simply screams "ringer" to me - stay away!

It may or may not have been the seller that put the car in that state, but whatever the "story" it'll cost you 1k+ to put it right (IVA, registration etc.).

Whilst I'm a lover of cars, including kit cars, they should be tested and registered correctly or it WILL bite you on the backside. For example if the insurer has any suspicion the car is different from what they been asked to insure they may well refute the policy and not pay out o you or another party. To me that situation just doesn't bear thinking about. Monies in insurance claims can get out of hand very quickly


chillis - 12/9/17 at 09:31 AM

The problem you will have is when you have bought it and apply for the logbook it will be refused, it's almost certainly flagged at the DVLA especially if they refused the engine change.
Nothing about this suggests to me the guy selling it is honourable, just good enough talker to convince you. But once you have bought it its your problem.
Correctly IVA'ing and registering a kit built car legitimises it so anyone not doing so is running an illegitimate car and the risk of invalidated insurance etc etc etc.
If you were buying an unfinished & unregistered kit would you still buy it for the money? 'cos that's what you would be buying.
IMO this is not the time to let your head rule your heart but we have all been there - just be clear on what you are getting into. The fact it is illegally registered should be your cue to really beat him down on price even more. This should be really dirt cheap not because you have to IVA it but because he's selling you an illegal car!


loggyboy - 12/9/17 at 09:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
Just trying to find a way to stand by my word (I've given him my word etc etc). Incidentally it's fine on emissions (I realise that's incidental and there are far more serious things potentially but at least that's something).


Emissions for Mot will be easy, as being a Q it only needs to not show visable smoke, for IVA you would need to prove engine age and for that one occasion the emissions would be based on figures comparable to the fitted engine (so mid 90s emissions).

[Edited on 12-9-17 by loggyboy]


mcerd1 - 12/9/17 at 09:44 AM

Just remember everyone here would love to see another kit back on the road - just not a ringer...

paying good money for ringers just helps ignorant / unscrupulous builders to build more ringers




going forward - what is your rough budget ? maybe we can collectively point you towards a better car


Schrodinger - 12/9/17 at 11:43 AM

One other point, if you need more, if you get stopped by the police and they decide it's a ringer it's crushed so you will have nothing to show for your spend, you may also get done for other things like no insurance, invalid mot to mention a couple. I would not take the risk unless it was well under 1k.


JimSpencer - 12/9/17 at 11:48 AM

Hi

I've got a Striker and they certainly can be got through the test.

My suggestion is to think about this a bit differently - and if you proceed to buy it, do that a bit differently too..

My striker was SVA tested and is/was road legal - I say the latter as for the last few years it's been SORN'ed and we've only used it for events/track days - it's not seen a road..

You could treat this car the same?

If the car is worth it's price - without the number plates and registration documents - and you get a nice track day / competition car out of it then Buy It - but buy it without the number plates and documents, leave them with him - they're his problem and you don't want or need them IMHO.

If it's not worth the Current price as a pure track / competition car, then re-negotiate the price with him until it is

HTH


coyoteboy - 12/9/17 at 12:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


But it wouldn't get a Q if it was using a dutton reg. It would get the dutton reg?


SJ - 12/9/17 at 12:47 PM

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


But it wouldn't get a Q if it was using a dutton reg. It would get the dutton reg?



Doesn't that just mean the Dutton was on a Q reg?


The Knobs - 12/9/17 at 02:00 PM

It looks like you have made your mind up but unless it is 2k I would not bother. Decent legal striker is no more than 6K in the winter and I am sure one will come up by xmas.


stevebubs - 12/9/17 at 03:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


But it wouldn't get a Q if it was using a dutton reg. It would get the dutton reg?



Doesn't that just mean the Dutton was on a Q reg?


Yup


kingster996 - 12/9/17 at 03:38 PM

At the end of the day, it's your money and your call.

But every single person on here is pretty much saying "walk away" - or at the very least treat it as an unregistered track car of exceedingly dubious parentage!

What you need to ask is WHY?

Why would someone build a 'well put together' car with 'lots of build photos' etc and then not register it correctly?

Money? Well, the IVA and reg will cost you around 500 assuming you have built it to pass (potentially a lot more if you haven't) - so how much did a Dutton V5 cost in comparison? Bearing in mind that the car would always be worth way more as a legal one, it must have needed more spending on it to pass than just the fee to justify the cost of a dead Dutton - so what's wrong with it?

Time? It's much quicker and easier to stamp up a chassis than it is to IVA and then deal with the DVLA - so maybe the builder had some reason to want to be on the road that was worth losing money for - can't think of one mind?

Theft? Maybe the Sylva was stolen and then the Dutton identity grafted on to sell it on - certainly one reason to remove a legit Sylva chassis number and replace it with another before punting it out to an uneducated buyer.

Accident Damage Maybe the car has been a write off and to disguise the fact that it had serious damage a new identity was grafted on?

The other issue here is that the Striker is well known as a really sweet handling track car - so I'm sure plenty of buyers would want a decent one - BUT now that it has had the original Sylva chassis numbers ground off and replaced with dodgy Dutton ones, it is potentially longer going to be seen a "real" Sylva by those in the know - in fact who knows what chassis is under there and who welded it up for that matter. Then even if you choose to IVA it - can you prove it's a Sylva to the next buyer without a 'proper' chassis number as evidence?

Whatever happens, this car will always be worth way less than a genuine Striker - so once again, unless it is for buttons (relatively speaking) and you actually want all the hassle, don't buy it.


motorcycle_mayhem - 12/9/17 at 04:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by The Knobs
Decent legal striker is no more than 6K in the winter and I am sure one will come up by xmas.


Unless a seller is merely listing for enjoyment purposes, or attempting to instil a sense of warmth within himself over the 'value' of his car, then 6K is more than ample. Cars do sometimes come up where the seller actually wants to part with it, so yes, just wait a while.
Most cars will be known by folk on here, so that might help.

Plenty of absolute crap out there masquerading as something that might be desirable, caveat emptor, if in any doubt whatsoever simply walk away.


Toys2 - 13/9/17 at 03:20 PM

If he was to go down the project >IVA route. How would he stand on not having receipts for the components. Or is this
just a requirement to get new/age related registration?


scimjim - 14/9/17 at 01:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_SavaloyHe tried to change the engine size (wrote to the DVLA) but they refused to acknowledge this as they felt he was trying to go down a level on the car tax?


I've registered a change of tax class on 2 cars - both pre 2001 going down a bracket (1.6 CVH to 1.3 CVH and 1.6 CVH to 1.4K series) with no real problems outside the usual DVLA ineptitude, so I have to question your assessment of the sellers honesty?


SJ - 14/9/17 at 01:32 PM

The dvla can be awkward on changing the engine size. I tried to to change mine and they wouldn't believe me even though I was increasing the engine size.


scimjim - 14/9/17 at 01:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
The dvla can be awkward on changing the engine size. I tried to to change mine and they wouldn't believe me even though I was increasing the engine size.


They will insist on the right info being provided but they can't "refuse to acknowledge".


SJ - 14/9/17 at 01:52 PM

quote:

uote:
Originally posted by SJ
The dvla can be awkward on changing the engine size. I tried to to change mine and they wouldn't believe me even though I was increasing the engine size.


They will insist on the right info being provided but they can't "refuse to acknowledge".



In my case it was nothing to do with information. It was evidence they wanted in the form of an engineers report. If by 'refuse to acknowledge' you mean make no changes despite being informed, then that is exactly what they did.

This is the DVLA we are talking about.

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]


loggyboy - 14/9/17 at 02:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Toys2
If he was to go down the project >IVA route. How would he stand on not having receipts for the components. Or is this
just a requirement to get new/age related registration?


Part source is not relevant for IVA (only engine age for emissions)
For DVLa registration, where you dont have 2 major donor parts, or receipts for all new major components, you will get a Q.


Toys2 - 14/9/17 at 02:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Toys2
If he was to go down the project >IVA route. How would he stand on not having receipts for the components. Or is this
just a requirement to get new/age related registration?


Part source is not relevant for IVA (only engine age for emissions)
For DVLa registration, where you dont have 2 major donor parts, or receipts for all new major components, you will get a Q.


Good to know, I've not been through the IVA, I built a Cobra - pre SVA, now I run a Striker that was already registered on a Q before I got it


scimjim - 14/9/17 at 03:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

uote:
Originally posted by SJ
The dvla can be awkward on changing the engine size. I tried to to change mine and they wouldn't believe me even though I was increasing the engine size.


They will insist on the right info being provided but they can't "refuse to acknowledge".



In my case it was nothing to do with information. It was evidence they wanted in the form of an engineers report. If by 'refuse to acknowledge' you mean make no changes despite being informed, then that is exactly what they did.

This is the DVLA we are talking about.

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]


By right info, I mean evidence as per their published requirements

By DVLA ineptitude, I provided a receipt, they asked for engineers report, I said no and quoted this page, they sent me a new V5 with new engine details.

Change of engine number or cylinder capacity (cc)
You need to provide either:

a receipt for the replacement engine
written evidence from the manufacturer
an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
written confirmation on headed paper from a garage (if the change took place before you bought the vehicle)

[Edited on 14/9/17 by scimjim]


coyoteboy - 14/9/17 at 10:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


No I mean I'm under the impression you can't register it as a Dutton if it's going be a Q plate. Can you?


SJ - 15/9/17 at 07:04 AM

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

uote:
Originally posted by SJ
The dvla can be awkward on changing the engine size. I tried to to change mine and they wouldn't believe me even though I was increasing the engine size.


They will insist on the right info being provided but they can't "refuse to acknowledge".


In my case it was nothing to do with information. It was evidence they wanted in the form of an engineers report. If by 'refuse to acknowledge' you mean make no changes despite being informed, then that is exactly what they did.

This is the DVLA we are talking about.

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]

[Edited on 14/9/17 by SJ]


By right info, I mean evidence as per their published requirements

By DVLA ineptitude, I provided a receipt, they asked for engineers report, I said no and quoted this page, they sent me a new V5 with new engine details.

Change of engine number or cylinder capacity (cc)
You need to provide either:

a receipt for the replacement engine
written evidence from the manufacturer
an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
written confirmation on headed paper from a garage (if the change took place before you bought the vehicle)

[Edited on 14/9/17 by scimjim]



Thanks - I wasn't aware of that list of requirements. They just asked me for an engineers report like you.

I'll give it another go!

Cheers

Stu


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 15/9/17 at 07:54 AM

Just a short update. I'm going to buy the car. Whether I can get a discount on the price agreed remains moot. Nevetherless; I'm buying the car.

It's going to come with an MOT so I know it's roadworthy. I'm going to do a trackday (99% certain it'll be at Pembrey on 1st October) and then I'm going to take it up to Anglesey where my mechanic (and some students from a local engineering college) are going to take the car apart in order for all of us to understand what it's going to take to get it through the IVA. When I raced in Stockhatch Rallycross - briefly in a Rover Metro 1.4k series in 2003-2007, I was able to do a deal with this local college whereby they looked after the car and prepared it and I paid for anything that needed replacing/improving/upgrading. Some of the passionate students also became my crew on racing weekends.

It might take a year. Might take 3 months. Might take 2 years but whatever - it's not going on the road until it has it's own correct identity and is IVA'd.

Not sure how to retire the current id it'll come with (SORN for eternity? Can I get a car dismantler to 'scrap it' for me? is there a legitimate way of doing that?) Really not sure of the legalities on that one.

All I know is is that I can't insure it for the road (or for trackdays) under it's current guise. But I don't want any other Striker - I want this one. I realise 'I want' never gets and it sounds v childish when I write it down but for alot of reasons I've now decided that this car needs to have it's own identity, in my ownership and it's my money (and other people's hard work in the team) that's going to get her back on the road in her own right. So that's that.

I realise this could be an extremely fraught process and ultimately I might lose alot of money - and still end up with just a trackday car (I'm not selling the car on with the wrong ID). So be it.

I gather that the nearest IVA to Anglesey is in Birmingham for example (not had time to look this up so might be wrong) - so that's a significant cost (in time and money) alone. And if it fails.....we'll have to go back again.....so this one is definitely one that's going to take time.

I'll have the previous chap's build diary, I'll have our build diary - we'll replace the bits that don't meet the IVA process as we go through the car and take it from there. I've budgeted another 1,500 or so to get it through (it'll be on the drip rather than all upfront so manageable) and there aren't any labour costs which fundamentally changes things. the students might use the car and it's IVA as a final year project - it's a little more interesting than a 10 year old Ford Focus etc etc. But that's not confirmed and there's no pressure from me to get it into the college or anything.

I realise some of you are going to be disappointed/incredulous, despite the excellent advice received here, but I just feel like this car needs to be brought back into the fold and loved, in it's own right. And I need to do right by the Dutton owner's and their club too to help them keep incorrect Dutton's off the DVLA register.


Paul_Arion - 15/9/17 at 08:17 AM

Well I for one am amazed - this could all end in tears with the car in the crusher!!

It's your money however after all - and I think many will realise that no matter what was said here that you were going to buy it.


Dopdog - 15/9/17 at 08:44 AM

So you have decided to buy it, lets see it then as no one else wants its lets see what all the fuss is about.


r1_pete - 15/9/17 at 08:58 AM

Oh dear, after 6 pages of reasons not to, from people who know IVA and DVLA process and risks, and have 1st hand experience of building cars.

Sounds very much like an Andy Pipkin - ' I want that one'

Hope it doesnt turn into his other common phrase 'I dont like it'


loggyboy - 15/9/17 at 10:42 AM

Credit where credit is due, this chap is going to take a ringer off the road, and get it sorted. As long as the price is right for him then there is no issues.
Not like hes sticking his hands over his ears, shouting LAA LAA LAA, and just buying it and sticking yt on road regardless.
Hes making an informed decision so there are no problems.


Paul_Arion - 15/9/17 at 10:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Credit where credit is due, this chap is going to take a ringer off the road, and get it sorted. As long as the price is right for him then there is no issues.
Not like hes sticking his hands over his ears, shouting LAA LAA LAA, and just buying it and sticking yt on road regardless.
Hes making an informed decision so there are no problems.


I think the concern that many will have is that if he finds there is no legal way to put it back on the road (other than a new chassis from Raw and build it up from scratch with an IVA and then officially scrapping the Dutton) then it may just end up back on the road as a ringer "Dutton".

AFAIK - you cant simply give the chassis a new number and it'd be interesting to see what DVLA make of any attempts to register it - IVA or not. Anyone any experience of turning a "ringer" into a legal car??


MikeRJ - 15/9/17 at 11:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


No I mean I'm under the impression you can't register it as a Dutton if it's going be a Q plate. Can you?


I'm confused by your question! It's very simple, almost all Duttons will have a Q plate since they were mostly made in an era prior to the SVA when a Q plate was allocated to kit cars, the 'Q' indicating the car was of indefinite origin. The only exception would be Duttons that illegally retained the donor registration - the DVLA had an amnesty prior to the SVA to get these cars correctly registered.

The whole point of the ringing exercise is to (illegally) avoid the work and expense of an SVA/IVA, so people buy a cheap Dutton and simply use it's VIN/Plates/V5. You'd obviously want to buy a Dutton on a Q plate for this purpose, since if it still had it's original donor reg it would be useless to you.


Toys2 - 15/9/17 at 12:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
A striker was built, someone purchased a dutton (or the remnants of one, possibly just the V5!), put the number plate and VIN on the the Striker chassis.
[Edited on 11-9-17 by loggyboy]


But it's on a Q plate? Why would anyone buy a dutton V5 to Q plate it, why not just register it from scratch?


because it bypasses the cost and effort of passing an IVA. It may look well put together, but if it was built in the knowledge it wasn't going to pass anything more than an MOT, I would hazard a guess a great deal of time/effort and probably cash will be needed.


No I mean I'm under the impression you can't register it as a Dutton if it's going be a Q plate. Can you?


I'm confused by your question! It's very simple, almost all Duttons will have a Q plate since they were mostly made in an era prior to the SVA when a Q plate was allocated to kit cars, the 'Q' indicating the car was of indefinite origin. The only exception would be Duttons that illegally retained the donor registration - the DVLA had an amnesty prior to the SVA to get these cars correctly registered.

The whole point of the ringing exercise is to (illegally) avoid the work and expense of an SVA/IVA, so people buy a cheap Dutton and simply use it's VIN/Plates/V5. You'd obviously want to buy a Dutton on a Q plate for this purpose, since if it still had it's original donor reg it would be useless to you.


That's not strictly true, pre SVA there was a points system, if you had the V5 from a single donor and could demonstrate that enough of the major components came from it, then you could keep the original reg, the make and model on the V5 would be changed. IIRC you'd need Engine, gearbox, suspension and steering. The registration process just needed that the kit passed an MOT and a 10 minute inspection by the DVLA to confirm that the description was accurate and numbers matched

Obviously this doesn't change the "ringer" part of the story, but it is possible to have a legal none Q Dutton

[Edited on 15/9/17 by Toys2]


ReMan - 15/9/17 at 12:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul_Arion
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Credit where credit is due, this chap is going to take a ringer off the road, and get it sorted. As long as the price is right for him then there is no issues.
Not like hes sticking his hands over his ears, shouting LAA LAA LAA, and just buying it and sticking yt on road regardless.
Hes making an informed decision so there are no problems.


I think the concern that many will have is that if he finds there is no legal way to put it back on the road (other than a new chassis from Raw and build it up from scratch with an IVA and then officially scrapping the Dutton) then it may just end up back on the road as a ringer "Dutton".

AFAIK - you cant simply give the chassis a new number and it'd be interesting to see what DVLA make of any attempts to register it - IVA or not. Anyone any experience of turning a "ringer" into a legal car??


Presumably you SORN the existing "ringer" for ever.
Then remove any identification of the vehicle, chassis number etc
Then submit for IVA as an amature build from parts of unknown orgin, for a Q plate?

[Edited on 15/9/17 by ReMan]


loggyboy - 15/9/17 at 12:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul_Arion
I think the concern that many will have is that if he finds there is no legal way to put it back on the road (other than a new chassis from Raw and build it up from scratch with an IVA and then officially scrapping the Dutton) then it may just end up back on the road as a ringer "Dutton".

AFAIK - you cant simply give the chassis a new number and it'd be interesting to see what DVLA make of any attempts to register it - IVA or not. Anyone any experience of turning a "ringer" into a legal car??


Thats exactly what you can do - A new VIN on an old chassis is not ringing, ringing is swapping one to another.
Providing he is happy to get the car to an IVA standard he will have no issues regsistering as a 'new' Q plate.


kingster996 - 15/9/17 at 01:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_Arion
I think the concern that many will have is that if he finds there is no legal way to put it back on the road (other than a new chassis from Raw and build it up from scratch with an IVA and then officially scrapping the Dutton) then it may just end up back on the road as a ringer "Dutton".

AFAIK - you cant simply give the chassis a new number and it'd be interesting to see what DVLA make of any attempts to register it - IVA or not. Anyone any experience of turning a "ringer" into a legal car??


Thats exactly what you can do - A new VIN on an old chassis is not ringing, ringing is swapping one to another.
Providing he is happy to get the car to an IVA standard he will have no issues regsistering as a 'new' Q plate.


Putting a new VIN on and IVA-ing sounds right - but it won't then be allowed to be called a "Sylva Striker" will it?

Surely you can't just grind numbers off, stamp on DVLA ones and then call it anything - otherwise every (dodgy) man and his dog would call their home built Locost a "Caterham" when they applied to the DVLA so they could try and sell on to some unsuspecting punter.

At least this chap sought advice and considered it all before buying and went in eyes open (hopefully with a hefty price drop) rather than paying over the odds for a stinky ringer and finding that out later.


JimSpencer - 15/9/17 at 01:25 PM

Strikers (or older ones anyway) I don't think came with any numbers on the chassis - or certainly mine didn't the 'Chassis number' was whatever one made up, stamped into a 'chassis plate' off ebay or a Chassis Rail.

I've read the OP's last post and can't see anything wrong with what he's planning - discard the original dodgy I.D. and start again - perfect gets the car back on the road and track correctly - which is all any enthusiast can want.


loggyboy - 15/9/17 at 02:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
Putting a new VIN on and IVA-ing sounds right - but it won't then be allowed to be called a "Sylva Striker" will it?

Surely you can't just grind numbers off, stamp on DVLA ones and then call it anything - otherwise every (dodgy) man and his dog would call their home built Locost a "Caterham" when they applied to the DVLA so they could try and sell on to some unsuspecting punter.

At least this chap sought advice and considered it all before buying and went in eyes open (hopefully with a hefty price drop) rather than paying over the odds for a stinky ringer and finding that out later.


You can call it what you want, to letter of law it just needs to not be fraudulent. Calling it what it is, is of course fine. No doubt it is a striker, and if it wasnt would need Raw to bother mount a legal protest if they weren't happy.


Irony - 15/9/17 at 02:56 PM

If he SORNs the ringer forever will it matter that he has a car that technically doesn't exist attached to his name? Will this cause some unknown problems later on.

I IVA'd a car that was built for SVA. It essentially sat in a garage for 11 years and I had no trouble getting it through.


kingster996 - 15/9/17 at 03:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
Strikers (or older ones anyway) I don't think came with any numbers on the chassis - or certainly mine didn't the 'Chassis number' was whatever one made up, stamped into a 'chassis plate' off ebay or a Chassis Rail.

I've read the OP's last post and can't see anything wrong with what he's planning - discard the original dodgy I.D. and start again - perfect gets the car back on the road and track correctly - which is all any enthusiast can want.


That's great news for the OP then. Could be a good result all round.


r1_pete - 15/9/17 at 03:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
If he SORNs the ringer forever will it matter that he has a car that technically doesn't exist attached to his name? Will this cause some unknown problems later on.

I IVA'd a car that was built for SVA. It essentially sat in a garage for 11 years and I had no trouble getting it through.



I'd want shut of the existing reg docs as soon as possible, who knows what changes the government will make to sorn in the future, having docs only of a sorn'd car which technically no longer exists, could lead to all sorts of problems.


gremlin1234 - 15/9/17 at 03:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
I'd want shut of the existing reg docs as soon as possible, who knows what changes the government will make to sorn in the future, having docs only of a sorn'd car which technically no longer exists, could lead to all sorts of problems.

possibly even better to not have any official paperwork (ie V5) put in the new owners name.
get the current owner to record the dutton as scrapped.
but this will cause problems since its just being moted...


bonzoronnie - 15/9/17 at 04:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Credit where credit is due, this chap is going to take a ringer off the road, and get it sorted. As long as the price is right for him then there is no issues.
Not like hes sticking his hands over his ears, shouting LAA LAA LAA, and just buying it and sticking yt on road regardless.
Hes making an informed decision so there are no problems.


Have read this hot topic with great interest.

Going to say I am with Loggy on this

My main issue would have been the potential of buying a stolen car that had been rung.

I am sure the OP has or is satisfied this is not the case.

Options open for OP

Enter into dialog with Raw, perhaps they would be willing to provide a Vin number.
Sure they would like to see a correctly registered Striker on the road.

If the chassis was never stamped by Raw when manufactured, contact DVLA for Vin number for a kit car.

IVA the Striker & get it road registered.

Once on the road, Notify DVLA that you have personally scrapped the Dutton. ( There is a section on the V5c for you to do this )

I have personally scrapped several cars & notified DVLA via the V5c
Never had an issue, they have always acknowledged & updated their records.


ReMan - 15/9/17 at 04:12 PM

Therotically the only way to do that now is through an ATF licenced facility, who of course will want the scrap metral in exchange for their name on the form
Though you might get away with the self scrap if you write to them and get them on a good day.
Id expect the current owner to not go that route, as that will implicate him further and in not excecuted to your satisfaction could have them looking for this scrap car, possibly banging on your door for it and siezing it ?....


leon51274 - 15/9/17 at 05:43 PM

As per my previous post I was also a victim of a ringer and still have the dodgy dutton v5 on sorn, I purchased a complete bare chassis to scrap with the v5 as the scrappers weren't willing to just process the paperwork without there actually being a vehicle, he said that dvla did spot checks. In the eyes of the law it's still not correct what I'm doing but there is no other way round it other than opening a can of worms with dvla.


Oi_Oi_Savaloy - 15/9/17 at 05:44 PM

I'm hoping that the VIN number on the striker isn't the same as on the current v5c - if it is that's going to cause me a problem and I'm not going to buy it - I'm not getting into grinding off stamped vin numbers etc etc. I didn't ask (and check) about whether the v5c vin number matches the one (if there is one) on the car.

I'm hoping it doesn't - I want a clean (free of vin stamps) so I can retire/scrap the current v5 it's hiding under, prepare the car, in a legitimate manner for it's IVA, and do right by the Dutton owners, 'legitimise' my car for road-use and carry on with life.

I'm not going to buy it if I can't do that.

I didn't notice a chassis plate but then again I didn't particularly look for one. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that but there we go.

But this way I get to do three things - retire the wrong the V5 documents, get my striker IVA'd and correctly registered and update/upgrade the car as we go through it at an initial price I can afford and on a basis, going forward, that I can cope with.


coyoteboy - 16/9/17 at 09:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ


I'm confused by your question! It's very simple, almost all Duttons will have a Q plate since they were mostly made in an era prior to the SVA when a Q plate was allocated to kit cars, the 'Q' indicating the car was of indefinite origin. The only exception would be Duttons that illegally retained the donor registration - the DVLA had an amnesty prior to the SVA to get these cars correctly registered.

The whole point of the ringing exercise is to (illegally) avoid the work and expense of an SVA/IVA, so people buy a cheap Dutton and simply use it's VIN/Plates/V5. You'd obviously want to buy a Dutton on a Q plate for this purpose, since if it still had it's original donor reg it would be useless to you.


This was the bit I was not aware of. Currently you couldn't the systems are in place to stop this, I was not aware of the historic system allowing it.


loggyboy - 16/9/17 at 10:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Oi_Oi_Savaloy
I'm hoping that the VIN number on the striker isn't the same as on the current v5c - if it is that's going to cause me a problem and I'm not going to buy it - I'm not getting into grinding off stamped vin numbers etc etc. I didn't ask (and check) about whether the v5c vin number matches the one (if there is one) on the car.

I'm hoping it doesn't - I want a clean (free of vin stamps) so I can retire/scrap the current v5 it's hiding under, prepare the car, in a legitimate manner for it's IVA, and do right by the Dutton owners, 'legitimise' my car for road-use and carry on with life.

I'm not going to buy it if I can't do that.

I didn't notice a chassis plate but then again I didn't particularly look for one. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that but there we go.

But this way I get to do three things - retire the wrong the V5 documents, get my striker IVA'd and correctly registered and update/upgrade the car as we go through it at an initial price I can afford and on a basis, going forward, that I can cope with.


Best to start a fresh. Write to the dvla explaiming you have scrapped the car, send back the V5c with the letter.
Grind off or cut out which ever VIN is on the chassis and remove the plate. Apply to the dvla for a new VIN and get that stamped in to the chassis (or stamped in to plate and weld to chassis, plenty of threads covering this) make up a new manufacturer plate with new VIN. Apply for IVA and register car as a new Q plate.


Toys2 - 16/9/17 at 12:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ


I'm confused by your question! It's very simple, almost all Duttons will have a Q plate since they were mostly made in an era prior to the SVA when a Q plate was allocated to kit cars, the 'Q' indicating the car was of indefinite origin. The only exception would be Duttons that illegally retained the donor registration - the DVLA had an amnesty prior to the SVA to get these cars correctly registered.

The whole point of the ringing exercise is to (illegally) avoid the work and expense of an SVA/IVA, so people buy a cheap Dutton and simply use it's VIN/Plates/V5. You'd obviously want to buy a Dutton on a Q plate for this purpose, since if it still had it's original donor reg it would be useless to you.


This was the bit I was not aware of. Currently you couldn't the systems are in place to stop this, I was not aware of the historic system allowing it.


Unfortunately, it wasn't the whole story as I replied earlier - copied below

""That's not strictly true, pre SVA there was a points system, if you had the V5 from a single donor and could demonstrate that enough of the major components came from it, then you could keep the original reg, the make and model on the V5 would be changed. IIRC you'd need Engine, gearbox, suspension and steering. The registration process just needed that the kit passed an MOT and a 10 minute inspection by the DVLA to confirm that the description was accurate and numbers matched

Obviously this doesn't change the "ringer" part of the story, but it is possible to have a legal none Q Dutton ""


Actually it was always illegal, pre SVA there were 4 choices
- keep the original reg/make/model = Illegal but it rarely got picked up as electronic systems weren't in place to catch you out - eg MOT
- Write the the DVLA and have the Model changed - eg Ford Escort became Ford Sports Special, Marginal, probably illegal
- Build, MOT, DVLA Check > Q reg if source was indeterminate
- Build, MOT, DVLA Check > Age related or New reg if source of parts were proven and conditions met

So really, nothing's changed other than the DVLA check has turned into a Construction and Use test

Just one quirk, Before SVA came in (and for a short time after) there was an amnesty to get your car correctly registered, the rules were still the same as above, but they were pretty lenient if you could prove that it had been on the road for some time, by using Tax disc's and MOT's as evidence. So in that way, I agree, some dodgy cars could have gained a correct reg