I need front uprights...
I have a blank sheet...
I can go for anything I want...
What do I choose?
Is there any benefit to using Cortina over Sierra? Is there anything else that knocks spots off both of them?
You didn't get single seater ones with the car ?
They weigh a fraction of what a road car one does.
Not the ones I got Zil... made of stone!
The front corners are the only bit of the car that concerns me... I'd like to simplify it with 'locost' type wishbones, uprights, etc.
A set of ally ones from Rally Design with Wilwoods etc would seem the obvious choice...? Cortina geometry IIRC.
Rally Design also sell some steel uprights (Pro Spindle?) which look like they might be quite light and versatile, not sure how appropraite the
inherent geometry is though.
What do Caterham and Westfield use? Do they have their own design?
Adam r love the pic.
some say mx5 are better than sierra
read an ebay add yesterday claiming cortina are better than sierra although I have no idea why they think either are better.
think burtons do some brand new sierra ones
i think you can get alloy ones from rally design guess it all depends on how much you want to pay and how fussy you are going to be about them
personally i uesd sierra ones cause that was what my book used and they came with the donor.
Ray
[Edited on 14/7/10 by RAYLEE29]
Caterhams used to use triumph spitfire ones...
Regards
Hugh
I have a set of cortina mk3's for sale and a set of mx5s
From what i've been reading / heard:
The cortina upright is ok but the scrub radius is far too large really.
The sierra item is better but the whole setup is very heavy.
Rally Design ones are no lighter than cortina really and still have the bad geometry.
Wilwood ones are good but don't come in common UK PCDs.
MX5 ones are ok but again fairly heavy and have large KPI.
No one has much experience of fiddling with caterham ones, people assume they must be good. Based on triumph herald...
Best option... make your own to suit your purpose!?
Edited at the request of phelpsa
[Edited on 17-7-10 by Fozzie]
i'd be very tempted with a triumph design - read up on why Colin Chapman decided to stop using them on his formula 1 cars before you do.
Caterham have an upgraded version they use - these are what i'd look at.
what about the Wilwood uprights from Rallydesign. £135 for a pair including steering arms, although you need some other bits and bobs (like hubs and
bearings) which they also supply.
Should be strong enough (all those American ambulance chasers should ensure that) and appear to be reasonable weight (from Wilwood site).
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I need front uprights...
I have a blank sheet...
I can go for anything I want...
What do I choose?
Mini uprights are good, can still buy them new and you can get aluminium versions if you're feeling flush. To use them without driveshafts just
take the balls and cage out of the CV (can machine them down if you want to save weight).
[Edited on 14/7/10 by iank]
Midget?
You can get adjustable trunnions from Peter May Engineering, and I reckon they can be adapted to take rose joints top and bottom.
Also, the steering arm is bolt on, so could easily be re-fabricated for ackerman angle etc.
Finally, the steering arm is mounted at the top rather than bottom, which will probbaly suit your single seater better.
Mk3 Mondeo rear hub units:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/270600382296
Annoying that they 5 stud, but it would be fairly easy to fabricate an upright to accept them to whatever geometry you choose. The bearing carrier
provides most of the stiffness and I bet it's not THAT heavy. Certainly would work out lighter than a sierra setup. They're quite narrow
(hub face to mounting face) so you can keep the scrub radius nice and low. Shouldn't be too difficult to remove the abs sensor.
I need to stop browsing ebay... :p
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Mk3 Mondeo rear hub units:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/270600382296
Annoying that they 5 stud, but it would be fairly easy to fabricate an upright to accept them to whatever geometry you choose. The bearing carrier provides most of the stiffness and I bet it's not THAT heavy. Certainly would work out lighter than a sierra setup. They're quite narrow (hub face to mounting face) so you can keep the scrub radius nice and low. Shouldn't be too difficult to remove the abs sensor.
I need to stop browsing ebay... :p
That looks really interesting - if you took a NK / MAC / MNR / any other seven rear hub and added on steering arm ........
hmmmm........
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/310227511331
VERY interesting....
The Wilwoods are the best option I've seen, and made for hotrods, so road safe and tested.
You get the Wilwoods, remachine the axle to take the RD ali escort hubs, and away you go. Alternatively, you redrill the Wilwood hubs to Ford PCD. Not
rocket science.
None of the ali uprights from RD have any sort of proper test dertificates, and RD get a bit peculiar if you mention the fact to them.
Cheers,
Nev.
I see RD do genuine Sierra ones... £90 for a pair with hubs / bearings fitted!
Linky
contact Martin @ MK engineering he makes his own for his midi and the single seater he designed Im sure he would supply
Seems the right moment to advise that Rally Design has advised a possible welding failure on the Raceleda/RMD style of ally upright. Rally Design have recently changed the steering arm away from the original fabricated arm(welded) to a drop forged design,although the failure has only occured on 2 vehicles with no damage they have made the offer to issue free of charge replacement arms,this offer applies irrespective of whether the upright assembly was purchased from RD or another retailer. All purchasers will be advised by post but as a discussion thread about uprights was started it seemed a good moment to advise the problem on this forum.This applies to all gold plated fabricated arms,black painted drop forged arms are to the latest spec and are not a problem.If you know of anybody who has this front upright assembly perhaps you could let them know. The problem appears to have occured on only 2 vehicles out of 178 uprights sold but as we have the replacement arms it seems sensible to make the change.
Sounds like excellent customer service! Well done!
PS - Can I have a set for providing the 'vehicle' for making the announcement!
As there is a safety issue going on here, with the 'gold coloured' Rally Design (issued/sold by them or others) steering arm, I have
'stickied' this thread for a while, in case people who have these, may have missed it ....
Fozzie .......Admin
[Edited on 20-7-10 by Fozzie]
I recall that this design flaw was pointed out some time ago, and the pointer got a right slagging off from the mfrs for it.......
Anyone with the welded steering arms similar to the older RD items and the other sellers, should rid themselves pronto. It's only a matter of
time....
Cheers,
nev.
quote:
Originally posted by ghostrain
Seems the right moment to advise that Rally Design has advised a possible welding failure on the Raceleda/RMD style of ally upright. Rally Design have recently changed the steering arm away from the original fabricated arm(welded) to a drop forged design,although the failure has only occured on 2 vehicles with no damage they have made the offer to issue free of charge replacement arms,this offer applies irrespective of whether the upright assembly was purchased from RD or another retailer. All purchasers will be advised by post but as a discussion thread about uprights was started it seemed a good moment to advise the problem on this forum.This applies to all gold plated fabricated arms,black painted drop forged arms are to the latest spec and are not a problem.If you know of anybody who has this front upright assembly perhaps you could let them know. The problem appears to have occured on only 2 vehicles out of 178 uprights sold but as we have the replacement arms it seems sensible to make the change.
Am I correct that the purpose of the above adaptors is to be able to fit rod ends,fitted at right angles to the upright assembly. If that is the case
I personally have not been happy about the use of rod ends in this mode of use,the failure load of the rod end is considerably reduced and rod ends
were never designed to take load in this plane,for that reason we would always recommend the proven route of transit drag link joints. I was involved
in the design of the front suspension by the leading club race car constructor in th uk and on the prototype both front rod ends failed at the point
where the stub joins the housing. Rod Ends have a relatively low angle of misalingnment,about 11 degrees on average,it is easy to lock out the
bearing. Ironically the cheaper pressed construction joints have a higher angle of misalignment than the normal expensive joints,there are hi-angle
joints available. If employing a rod end in this mode it is most important to loci the movement of the suspension on max bump and droop without
shocker attached to make sure no lock out occurs. I am surprised MNR would say that Rally Design uprights are not up to the job,under what test
results can they make that statement?Are you sure you did not misunderstand their comments. As for the comment about chinese parts then stop using
your VW,Honda,TRW or ZF parts because RD use the same OEM supplier as they do,sorry but that is a fact of life that most of the parts we now use come
from China and it is sad to say that quality and reliability is the better for it...these asian manufacturers have quality control
procedures,equipment and personnel that is the envy of most uk small manufacturers and the bigger uk suppliers are just not interested in this
work.
The latest RD uprights now use drop forged steering arms,the preferable method of manufacture.
Hope that helps
I did some further research on my own posting and found that the max axial load is according to the respected aurora website 10% of the radial load ie for a 12000 lb radial rod end the maximum axial load is 1200 lb...aurora state that this load should be considered failure load with no safety factor....my recommendation is that you use rod ends of minimum 18mm(like the transit joint) or 3/4 unf and with the max angle of misalignment available.
The 10% axial load if for a 3 piece rod end, its 15% allowable for the 2 peice rod end which Is what im using.
Also you reccomend the 3/4" rod end which according to the aurora website is rated to 10900lbs of force, The rod ends I have chosen are £42 EACH
& are rated to over 31,000 lbs force even though there only half inch bore & 5/8 unf thread.
A friend of mine is running the same spec, however slightly smaller rod ends (1/2" bore & 1/2" unf) which are rated to just over 20,000
lbs force and they even though he races it competitively & has even managed to crash into a tree before which destroyed the rhs suspension &
wishbone, the top rod end was still fine, He has also had an aluminium upright 'let go' on him.
Thanks for you concearn however I'm pretty confidient that the rod ends will be up for the job, I am however still concearned with the uprights
as you havent answered the question-
Will they be safe to use or not ?
[Edited on 31/7/10 by PuppiesBalls]
I assume you have the RMD ally uprights,please confirm?You obviously are keen to have a black-white decision on use of these uprights. If the car has
only 750kg weight there must be many vehicles out there using RD uprights who are heavier than that,150 pairs in use and no upright failures says all
but the 350 hp is more powerful than the average that these guys will be using,that's all about how hard you intend to drive the
vehicle,especially on bad surfaces.
Out of interest if you decide against the RD uprights what are your alternatives?
With regard to the safety question have you asked your rod end supplier with the same parameters and clearly explaining the mode you are using those
rod ends whether he considers the rod end to be safe? On the race car I spoke of earlier we ended up using 1" rod ends with lock in ball,real
agricultural joints but with lots of metal at the point where the stem joins the housing...my preference is for 2 piece rod ends,using low carbon
steel rather than chrome moly steel ....the former tends to bend the latter just fails with no warning.
Yep I am using the RMD Aluminium uprights (which I purchased from you guys about 2 weeks ago)
Yes I was hoping to get a yes or no
Regarding how hard I am going to drive it, I take car of all my belongings as so if its a crap road surface I will slow down, I dodge & swerve as
many pot holes as possible but its not possible to miss them all, all the time
Alternative to RD uprights are Stiltec Racing Billit uprights, or a set or westfeild ally uprights.
Tensile strength of 6082-T6 billet aluminium is 310 MPa. Tensile strength for heat treated (important) LM25 cast aluminium is 315MPa. So in theory
the billet version is slightly weaker.
MNR is giving a figure of 340MPA, not sure how they acheive that because I thought their uprights were cast heat treated LM25 same as Rally Design.
I looked up the F.E.A. testing of the RMD upright. A 600Kg car with 50/50 weight distribution, 3G bump load and 2G lateral load. Peak load on the
upright was revealed as 105MPa.
All of the failures of aluminium uprights that we know of were from the original batch of Raceleda castings. We rejected most of these castings for
sale at Rally Design on visual appearance (they were very poor quality with cavities).
I must say that some of the ideas that Raceleda had were to my eyes positively dangerous, he drilled steering arms to lighten them and removed much of
the side of cast brake disc bells to reduce weight. All without any form of testing, no wonder he ceased trading!
2g Lateral
3g Bump
3g Bump2
Thanks for that re-assurance, I was speaking Micheal Coombs(the bloke who done this FEA) aswell and im confidient that these uprights are top notch
now, My apologies for the questioning, Just got worried after speaking to MNR!
If you have a blank sheet and can have anything you want why on earth are you considering scabby old Ford/Mazda/Triumph bits?
Upright design is pretty easy, you set your geometry, choose your bearing, position your caliper and then join the dots.
Its not the withcraft that people make it out to be... if anything its easier than trying to make existing OEM uprights fit new suspension.
Would vw beetle be any good
http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=877&xSec=475
Peugeot 306 uprights look ok, they would take a mushroom adaptor similar to sierra ones thus allowing you to change the height between top and bottom
pivot points to suit application, and the lower ball joint is bolt on rather than part of the 306's lower wishbone. Cheap on ebay too.
In terms of designing your own, the MK MIDI ones look good but maybe the cost of having the parts laser cut and professionally welded together could
be prohibitive.
I've got a set of restored Cortina mk3 uprights and calipers for sale.
Chris.
nice.. except for the paint :-)
Cheers, personally I think they look awesome, the picture doesn't really do them justice...
i understand as "restored" that the caliper has been seperated from the upright, both painted singulary, calipers flushed and new seals fitted and than bolted back to the upright using new, galvanized bolts, or even better the caliper disassembled (both halfs split) and assembled with using new, galvanized bolts.
quote:
Originally posted by alfas
i understand as "restored" that the caliper has been seperated from the upright, both painted singulary, calipers flushed and new seals fitted and than bolted back to the upright using new, galvanized bolts, or even better the caliper disassembled (both halfs split) and assembled with using new, galvanized bolts.
You tell 'em Chris!
i´ve seen RAF engineers choosing a RobinHood kit (which already indicates a lot for me) and the result was a even more worse than the typical
robin-hood....so working with RAF does not automaticaly mean a high level of skills or whatever. its a job like any other job.
overpainting bolts which could be easily replaced by new ones says also a lot (to me).
anyway...each to his own!!!
i´m not here to critisize your skills or explain my high level of demands. i´m telling my opinion...very often not in a diplomatic way, otherwise i
would have gone into politics. my opinions come out straight away, therefore often sound a bit harsh. but opinion is opinion.
now to Rallydesign:
"...was advised that the rally design ones are chinese copies and wont be up for the job"
you are wondering why RD´s parts are so cheap and often crap? the answer could be found above.
save once, buy twice!!!
[Edited on 27/2/11 by alfas]
quote:
Originally posted by alfas
i´ve seen RAF engineers choosing a RobinHood kit (which already indicates a lot for me) and the result was a even more worse than the typical robin-hood....so working with RAF does not automaticaly mean a high level of skills or whatever. its a job like any other job.
overpainting bolts which could be easily replaced by new ones says also a lot (to me).
anyway...each to his own!!!
i´m not here to critisize your skills or explain my high level of demands. i´m telling my opinion...very often not in a diplomatic way, otherwise i would have gone into politics. my opinions come out straight away, therefore often sound a bit harsh. but opinion is opinion.
ok...lets agree that new (galvanized) bolts with correct strength would have upgraded the complete refurb-job
quote:
Originally posted by alfas
ok...lets agree that new (galvanized) bolts with correct strength would have upgraded the complete refurb-job
Alfas,
I am struggling with your insistance on new "galvanised" bolts in a set of calipers? It may be that what you are calling galvanised differs
from what I know as galvanised, but the only galvanised bolts in this country are used by builders and have a really thick coating of zinc and
definately not what you would use in a car. If you are talking about zinc plating as in electroplating then maybe, but if you are worried about the
strength of the bolt then electroplating, I am told, is not to be recomended either. I personally do not see why the use of new bolts is neccessary,
zinc plated or not, if the old ones were OK. Your opinion is your own as is mine but I think you being a little unfriendly in the way you gave it.
Just my opinion, don't take offence, you are probably a very nice person.
Bruce
Kind of misunderstanding why there's any sort of argument against Chris here - since when is it wrong to paint things (in my mind both making
them looking pretty and preventing corrosion are equally valid reasons).
I certainly can't recall the last time I saw any galvanised fasteners that were high-tensile!
After reading the posts on this forum I now know why the SVA is so tough.
rally design, rally design, rally design, rally design................................... its the simplest lightest route and it works very well ... ....................THE END....................
quote:
Originally posted by hughpinder
Caterhams used to use triumph spitfire ones...
Regards
Hugh
Ermm.. Not entirely Correct Take a peek
http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/category.php?id_category=1019&p=2
These are EXACTLY the same as 1980 Triumph bits.
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Ermm.. Not entirely Correct Take a peek
http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/category.php?id_category=1019&p=2
These are EXACTLY the same as 1980 Triumph bits.
Suppose an 1980 MK 4 doesn't count as an 80's car then?
Certainly the makers of those uprights are STILL pounding them out the factory door.
How about these, nice and light i suspect
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/38381/magnesium_front_uprights.html
these are worth a look
https://randallmotorsport.ssl-01.com/index.php?cPath=66&osCsid=hb592q7mvd63qi79k441p1agc0
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
The Wilwoods are the best option I've seen, and made for hotrods, so road safe and tested.
You get the Wilwoods, remachine the axle to take the RD ali escort hubs, and away you go. Alternatively, you redrill the Wilwood hubs to Ford PCD. Not rocket science.
None of the ali uprights from RD have any sort of proper test dertificates, and RD get a bit peculiar if you mention the fact to them.
Cheers,
Nev.
Not got time to read the whole thread, but call Martin at MK Engineering. He's doing his own for his cars and also for Spire. Nice, simple,
light and cost effective from what I've seen.
TC
As above...
I got some light ones from Joe (welderman). I think they were 'Rorty' designs. Will post up some pics later.
http://www.palatov.com/products/suspension.html
Not exactly locost, but engineering porn in any case ;-)
Bought the wilwood prospindles from rallydesign, they don't suit the locost wishbone kit which I also bought as the ball joints don't match up as there Web Site would suggests. Now using cortina uprights.
just to add to the Rally Design alloy upright quality discussion we have been running them for 4 years now on our race avon, the only issue we ever had was the steering arm issue already mentioned and to be honest that was the result of an impact and it probably saved everything else from more damage. We are currently rebuilding it as a road car with the new GTA body and will be using them again. If anyone wants the top rose joint adapter ours will be up for sales as we are reverting to the top transit drag link for road use.
I am surprised no one has mentioned the GM Chevette/Manta/Viva (HA?) upright. Perhaps getting difficult to find now but a neat little forging much nicer than the Cortina casting. It can be lightened somewhat as well ( brake dust shield mountings etc ). I weighed mine at 4 kg including hub and bearings and wheel studs etc. From memory this was no heavier than a set of Westfield alli uprights/hubs I had around at the time.
has any one used the willwood pro spindels ,,they look good but are they straight forward or a hassel?????
Was looking at the wilwood ones and would be interested to know if they work.
This happened on Sunday at Anglesey circuit with the Rally design ones:
120mph and no steering....not good!
[Edited on 16/4/13 by Rocket_Rabbit]
Any chance of a larger photograph? I cannot see any details on that tiny one !
Regards
Jon
Sorry, thought it would resize
Bloody hell, that must have been an underwear filling moment 
Did you manage to avoid hitting anything?
If they were bought new from rally design they should have contacted you, they did us 2 years after we bought them and supplied a replacement pair of steering arms foc, they new ones are cast not fabricated, give them a call.
Hi,
Just thought id jump in on this thread, can anyone tell me the thread size for the three brake shield bolts on the cortina uprights
probably covered somewhere else
regards jon
quote:
Originally posted by johnnybizzle1986
Hi,
Just thought id jump in on this thread, can anyone tell me the thread size for the three brake shield bolts on the cortina uprights
probably covered somewhere else
regards jon
Great topic though which I'd missed before!
so well done that man for bringing it backup!
Has anybody used Mk1 mondeo uprights before?
An eccentric adaptor bush for a ball joint fitted where the strut went would offer the scope of king pin inlcination, castor and camber adjustment.
Plus it's easier to strip it from the Zetec donor!!!
An eccentric bush will allow kpi and camber to be altered but not caster angle.
There is, of course the cut down Escort/Capri option, used extensively on Sylva/Fisher/Raw things. Crudely welded tube on top, with a balljoint
screwed into that. Simple, cheap and I'm sure effective.
Scrub radius 'looks' better than the Cortina but then that may due to excess alcohol at the time of examination.
Raceleda made an alloy replicant of this arrangement, with what appears to be the balljoint just screwed into the top of the alloy upright. Again,
this may be due to excess alcohol, but I couldn't see this was a good thing. I've seen plenty of Raw things screaming around with this
set-up though, so it's clearly good.
A relative forum newby tentatively re-igniting this thread as it appears to have some superb information, but unfortunately the majority of the links
now seem to be broken!
Nonetheless, I'm currently assessing options for the front uprights of my build and, as a complete noob to the world of 4-wheeled vehicles, was
looking for some advice please.
I think I'm arriving at either the Rally Design Cortina-geometry alloy
uprights, or the Caterham equivalents, both of
which appear to be relatively lightweight (which is a top priority) and widely used. However I have no data to back this up! Hence...
1. Is anyone able to provide a verifiable weight for either of these options? (Ideally excluding the disks & calipers)
2. The wheels I'm planning on using have a 4x101.6 (4”) mounting PCD. Do any off-the-shelf hubs accommodate this configuration? (details seem
frustratingly sparse)
3. Do the Caterham uprights accommodate the Wilwood Powerlite radially-mounted front calipers?
4. What options do I have for the upper and lower spherical bearings on these uprights? I’m trying to minimise weight as much as possible so would
prefer to steer clear of the larger automotive style balljoints (target vehicle weight is circa. 250kg, for context)
5. Probably the most important question - are there any other options that I should be considering?
Thanks in advance,
-Rob
And just for reference, here's the Rally Design upright I modelled to gauge how all fits together... zero dimensional checks so 100% unreliable,
but it looks fairly close to the pics I've seen.
Can anyone spot the fatal error I've made?
Description
Description
Hub on back to front.
I would give the classic mini upright a look again.
You can buy aluminum versions of from KAD and/or Specialist components.
Bolt pattern is the same and there are upgrades for the brakes as well, 4 pots calipers and vented discs.
Maybe the balljoints are not ideal, because they need adjustment and maintenance.
https://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/uprights.html
the cheapest option and the leightest one are those cortina ones. why you insist on a 4" pcd?
Thanks for the recommendation on Mini uprights. Will take a look.
Ref mounting PCD, I had my eye on a set of Supertrax 13x7's but have just found out that they aren't available in anything other than
4x101.6 PCD and -7 offset.... which kinda rules them out. Back to the drawing board!
In the meantime I modeled up a sort of custom design split-rim using a 4x108 PCD which seems like it would fit the bill...
Description
Please keep the upright suggestions coming :-)