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4AGE GSXR Throttle Body Conversion
Glade - 2/10/11 at 08:05 PM

Thought I would start a thread showing the progress with my GSXR-600 Throttle body conversion on my 4AGE.
I did a bit of research, and have based my conversion on Fat Bald Bloke's website - Click here ----> Fat Bald Bloke's Westfield Website

The car currently has Dellorto DHLA carburetors, on a DCOE pattern manifold. I want to retain the manifold, and set-up the pipework so I can switch back to Carbs easily if I ever need to.



Fortunately the car has run Jenvey Throttle bodies in the past, so my OMEX OMEM 500 ECU is up the job, and some of the sensors (crank, coolant temp) are already in place.

First I won a set of K1 GSXR-600 Throttle bodies, complete with injectors, throttle potentiometer and wiring.



I stripped the throttle bodies, and cleaned them with petrol. I stripped the wiring harness, retaining the injector and potentiometer connections.



The fuel rail on the GSXR-600 is solid, and not spaced correctly for my manifold. To save on fabrication I have sourced a modular fuel rail from a GSXR-750. The spacing can be adjusted by replacing the metal tube between the plastic injector holders.



I have created a CAD drawing of the DCOE to GSXR adaptor plates. The adaptors will be watercut. There are some holes that will need threads/counterbores and will be finished afterwards.



I'll add more when I make some progress!


big-vee-twin - 2/10/11 at 08:11 PM

Here's a couple of pics from my install I'm using GSXR 750 throttle bodies on a bespoke manifold.



[img] Throttle Bodies on Duratec
Throttle Bodies on Duratec
[/img]



[img] Throttle bodies trial fitted
Throttle bodies trial fitted
[/img]


orton1966 - 3/10/11 at 07:02 AM

Just a quick question, are 600cc bike carbs big enough i.e. what is the bore/choke size compared to say a set of 44 webers?


whitestu - 3/10/11 at 09:14 AM

quote:

Just a quick question, are 600cc bike carbs big enough i.e. what is the bore/choke size compared to say a set of 44 webers?



I have ZX6R carbs on my Zetec 2.0. Venturis are 38mm.


Glade - 3/10/11 at 07:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
quote:

Just a quick question, are 600cc bike carbs big enough i.e. what is the bore/choke size compared to say a set of 44 webers?



I have ZX6R carbs on my Zetec 2.0. Venturis are 38mm.


GSXR-600 are 38mm I think. The 750's are larger so good for better top end (e.g max airflow).
I read that they the 600 TBs are good for 180-190bhp, and because the airspeed is higher on the smaller diameter TB's there is better drivability at low revs than with the larger bore.

Tonight I made a 1:1 cardboard model of my adaptor. Some of the holes were slightly out, so I dug a vernier out and double checked the measurements...
Some centers were 1mm off so I'll tweak the drawing and get my adaptors ordered.

ETA a few pics:







[Edited on 3/10/11 by Glade]


Glade - 5/10/11 at 01:16 PM

Just happened to come home at lunch and my adaptors have arrived already!
(I ordered them from someone on here, amazing service!!)

Offered up the TB's and they fitted... may need a little material shaving off, but all the holes are in the right place!


Glade - 7/10/11 at 07:56 AM

Modular GSXR-750 fuel rail arrived...

Need to fabricate a bracket from strip to hold the plastic injector holders with correct spacing, and secure them to the throttle bodies on the existing supports. Will probably need to fabricate different spacers.


HowardB - 7/10/11 at 08:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Glade
Modular GSXR-750 fuel rail arrived...

Need to fabricate a bracket from strip to hold the plastic injector holders with correct spacing, and secure them to the throttle bodies on the existing supports. Will probably need to fabricate different spacers.




I've just done that for the some tb's on my zetec. I turned new fuel rail elements and new spacers, evenings work on the lathe, all I need now is new m5 studding to bolt it all back together.


NigeEss - 7/10/11 at 08:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Glade
Just happened to come home at lunch and my adaptors have arrived already!
(I ordered them from someone on here, amazing service!!)





Don't be afraid to name anyone who provides good service


Glade - 9/10/11 at 03:37 PM

Did a few more bits...

Counter bored and tapped my adaptor plates. Used a drill and 13mm drill bit, to counter bore for the M8 cap head screws. It's not as neat as I'd like but looks OK when assembled on the car.



Trial fitted the TB's and adaptors to the car to measure the spacing for the fuel rail.





The standard connectors in the fuel rail will still fit with my spacing, but they aren't pushed home fully. (almost scale drawing shown below!)
Need to decide if this will be adequate, or if I need to re-make the spacers so they seat properly in the injector holders.



Also need to extend the throttle linkages.


Glade - 13/10/11 at 07:06 PM

Starting to come together now... fabricated a bracket for the injector rail.


Glade - 22/10/11 at 04:22 PM

Started to mount everything up properly now...

Fitted the adaptor plates with some Loctite Copper Silicone



Extended the throttle linkages with Aluminium L-shape


Spaced the throttle bodies using M6 threaded bar, and some M6 flanged nuts to maintain the spacing. Mounted it all up and sealed the bodies to the adaptors with more copper silicone.



Fitted the throttle cable. Think I need to find something more suitable.



Found that the trumpets off my old Dellorto carbs fitted perfectly. Will fabricate a bracket to keep them all together, but I think they'll stay in place with the slight interference fit and some more silicone.



Popped the bonnet back on... doesn't quite fill the gap like it used to.



Next is electrics and the High pressure fuel system.


matt_gsxr - 22/10/11 at 07:34 PM

Nice write-up.

My only slight concern would be your use of aluminium as the throttle coupler. Having bent quite a lot of aluminium I would worry that over time it will end up distorting and upsetting your throttle balance and resulting on the right hand two cylinders running a bit lean on tip-in (as the TPS is on the right hand end).

Matt


tul214 - 22/10/11 at 07:42 PM

When I did my CBR carbs I had shortrack on here laser cut me some extended linkages which when bent looked OEM;
laser cut linkage
laser cut linkage


extended linkage bent and fitted
extended linkage bent and fitted


matt_gsxr - 22/10/11 at 08:13 PM

Sadly on the gsxr ones that bit is welded onto the end of the rod (from what I remember).

That does look like a good solution though. But it wouldn't work directly on the gixer ones.


Glade - 23/10/11 at 09:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Nice write-up.

My only slight concern would be your use of aluminium as the throttle coupler. Having bent quite a lot of aluminium I would worry that over time it will end up distorting and upsetting your throttle balance and resulting on the right hand two cylinders running a bit lean on tip-in (as the TPS is on the right hand end).

Matt


I think I'll revisit it... I think there will also be some slack on some of the rivets.

Also the thickness of the material means that the throttle balance is a bit out.

Maybe steel, and a different mounting arrangement. Bonded and riveted, with some sort of dogleg so they are extended in the same plane as the original linkage.

Getting into wiring now. I have a GSXR-600 K1 Wiring Diagram.



The wiring for the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) on the Omex unit is

Wire = OMEX = GSXR Wiring Harness = GSXR TPS
+5v = Pink = Red = Blue
Signal = Orange = Pink/Black = Yellow
Sensor Earth = Gray = Black = Black

Need to get an air temperature sensor, wire up existing coolant temp sensor and wire in the injectors. Going to pare back my omex loom which has been hacked about in the past, in the process.

Then high pressure fuel system!


Glade - 29/10/11 at 05:18 PM

Lots of soldering and heat shrinking today!

I fabricated a bracket to mount the air temp sensor between cyls 2 & 3, by the throttle body intakes.

My Omex Air temp sensor and Minitimer connectors arrived, along with all sorts of coloured wire, a soldering iron and some cable ties.

Wired in the injectors and Re-wired the TPS, Air temp and coolant temp sensors.
Used heatshrink tube where possible to neaten it up, but where the wiring near the ECU was a little more complex I used electrical tape to tidy and protect everything.

Blue/white = coolant temp sensor
Green/white = air temp sensor
Grey/Orange/Pink = TPS
Red = common +ve to injectors
Brown = Injectors 1 & 4
White = Injectors 2 & 3





Finished up by connecting the laptop and loading the startup map that I got from OMEX.
Got good sensible readings from all the sensors.
I copied the timing settings from the existing map to the new one, and adjusted the TPS settings.
Finally cranked the engine over (no fuel yet) and could hear the injectors ticking.

So, all being well, I think that all we need now is the high pressure fuel system and a rolling road session!


AntonUK - 30/10/11 at 09:57 PM

I'm looking to exactly this (GSXR TB's onto a DCOE manifold)

Can you tell me where you sourced the modular fuel rail from?


Glade - 31/10/11 at 08:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by AntonUK
I'm looking to exactly this (GSXR TB's onto a DCOE manifold)

Can you tell me where you sourced the modular fuel rail from?


I got lucky and another locostbuilder contacted me saying he had one spare...

Unfortunately it has no part number stamped on it. I wasn't having much luck on ebay either.

However.. in the past when I needed bits for my Suzuki SV650S the dealership parts department were always able to pull up drawings and get part numbers etc... might be worth a try.


matt_gsxr - 31/10/11 at 09:33 PM

Suzuki bikes from a similar era.


http://www.alpha-sports.com/suzuki_parts.htm?fpg=/supr/2001%20GSXR75 0/59.htm



stevebubs - 31/10/11 at 09:47 PM

If you go for DCOE spacing then a Jenvey rail will work...

GSXR750 TBs On Zetec Pic 7
GSXR750 TBs On Zetec Pic 7


TPS...follow the link to my archive for the wiring details

Gsxr750 TPS; A=+5v ; B=Signal ; C=GND
Gsxr750 TPS; A=+5v ; B=Signal ; C=GND



[Edited on 31/10/11 by stevebubs]


Glade - 10/3/12 at 12:10 PM

OK Time for an update! Ordered some goodies, which arrived this week.

I've also got a Carbon Fibre boot panel specially made by my mate. Detailed pics of the prep, bagging, baking, trimming process here.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=30&t=1110779&nmt=Friend+made+me+a+Carbon+Fibre+Boot+Panel%21%21&mid=51741

Finished item looks like this...



I ordered a load of fuel pipe, reducers, clips, fuel pressure regulator, swirl pot, high pressure fuel pump, and I've got some fuel filters somewhere.



Have decided to mount all the bits in the boot area, on a panel attached to the bulkhead between the cockpit and the boot.

Designed the panel and made a model, will get it watercut out of ali sheet.



Fits nicely...



Parts will go on like this.


striker-4age - 11/3/12 at 08:52 PM

looking good my friend !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i also have a 4age with gsxr t/b that i am looking to get set up on the rolling road.

what is the base map you have got ? would like to see a copy of it to compare it to my base map

thanks
striker-4age


Glade - 11/3/12 at 09:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by striker-4age
looking good my friend !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i also have a 4age with gsxr t/b that i am looking to get set up on the rolling road.

what is the base map you have got ? would like to see a copy of it to compare it to my base map

thanks
striker-4age


You have mail...


striker-4age - 11/3/12 at 09:33 PM

lovely boy


Lebowski - 22/3/12 at 02:21 AM

Looks like a nice job


Glade - 29/3/12 at 03:24 PM

Started fitting pipes last weekend. I have realised that with the new spacing the existing spacers in the fuel rail ONLY JUST fit, and it's a bit dodgy.

So I have knocked up a design for replacements, extended to fit snugly.

Also created a connector block and some shorter sections to join to the high pressure fuel line. I've sent it out to a local machine shop but I think that it'll cost a lot to get made...



ETA: Getting a machine shop local to me to do them... 75 - doing them tonight or tomorrow - should be able to pick up Sunday!

[Edited on 30/3/12 by Glade]


Glade - 30/3/12 at 05:57 PM

Within 24 hours these have been produced!



tasmod - 3/4/12 at 01:30 PM

Curious as to why you went to the trouble of making up the fuel rail and used the smaller GSXR injectors when the 4age has a very good setup with its own seperate fuel rail with correct injectors.

[Edited on 3-4-12 by tasmod]


Glade - 3/4/12 at 01:41 PM

I didn't have any original 4AGE parts.

The car had dellorto carbs, and a custom manifold when I got it.

I didn't consider sourcing the original manifold & injectors!! Isn't it a big curly thing??


tasmod - 3/4/12 at 01:45 PM

No, the injector rail is separate and bolts with spacers to the holes in the head top (side) if you get what i mean.


tasmod - 3/4/12 at 01:57 PM

You have U2U


Andybarbet - 3/4/12 at 08:42 PM

This is a great thread, im doing a similar thing on a zetec engine, same throttle bodies & modular fuel rail but I picked up an ali plate with 4 pipes on it type of inlet manifold.

Your fuel rail extensions are looking good :-)

Im planning on turning mine from some scrap brass rod ive found at work, did you keep the hole through the spacers the same diameter as the original ali ones ? or is it preferable to have a larger bore for the fuel to flow through them ?

If it works ok, im going to mill a flat on the outer 2 so that i can drill then tap into it, this way i should be able to screw in a brass hose connector for flow & return. I will post a picture when ive tried it.


Glade - 3/4/12 at 08:55 PM

I made them the same bore as the originals.

The connector block also has approximately the same gap within it where the pipes meet.


Andybarbet - 3/4/12 at 09:01 PM

I shall follow your lead then, atleast having the same bore as the original, it leaves me more 'meat' to mill a flat on & drill/tap into it.

Cheers


HowardB - 3/4/12 at 09:12 PM

I made new fuel rail elements exactly the same, but now I don't need the throttle bodies or the st170 inlet manifold,.. all part of the joys of the evolving kit



AntonUK - 3/4/12 at 09:34 PM

Could I ask where you got your swirl pot and HP pump?


Glade - 4/4/12 at 07:17 AM

Ebay... 50 each.

There are some swirl pots there for 30 which look reasonable.


Glade - 10/4/12 at 09:17 PM

Tonight I mounted the swirl pot, pressure regulator & plumbed it all in.



Did a little wiring, created a clear path (to roll a burning inferno away from the house into my neighbour's garden), and went for it.

Cranked for about 20 secs, and it fired and settled into a reasonable idle!

Wahoooooo! Can't wait to let it run for a bit tomorrow!


MakeEverything - 10/4/12 at 11:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Glade
Tonight I mounted the swirl pot, pressure regulator & plumbed it all in.

Did a little wiring, created a clear path (to roll a burning inferno away from the house into my neighbour's garden), and went for it.

Cranked for about 20 secs, and it fired and settled into a reasonable idle!

Wahoooooo! Can't wait to let it run for a bit tomorrow!


Great Thread. A word of warning though;

I bought one of those Pressure regulators, and it was causing massive lean spikes in the early stages of tuning (static low revs). It took me ages to realise it, but for some reason, the diaphragm isnt consistent and seems to flex randomly. I had the injectors cleaned, checked the throttle, fuel hoses, pump, filters and everything but. Eventually, i looked at my shiny new regulator and took it to bits. The internal quality is alarming, when you think of the consequences of it not working properly.

I took it off in the end and went back to the little OE item which works fine. I'm yet to be convinced i need to spend another 80+ on a proper FPR, as the OE one works so well.


Glade - 11/4/12 at 06:27 AM

I did wonder about it being so cheap!

Can anyone reccomend a suitable replacement??

How about this...
http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p1850/FUEL-PRESSURE-REGULATOR-8MM-+-GAUGE-PORT/product_info.html

[Edited on 11/4/12 by Glade]


Oddified - 11/4/12 at 08:25 AM

I also bought one of those cheap regulators, but i took it in bit's before fitting to have a look inside....rubbish. It never went on the car and it's that bad i decided not to off load it on ebay either

Took the pipe fittings off and threw it in the bin...

Ian


Glade - 1/7/12 at 09:48 AM

Just thought I'd update this...

Bought a better fuel regulator, car is running now. Just needs a remap - which is on hold due to lots of other stuff going on.

Doesn't look like the car is going to see the road this summer


fsmlittler - 23/7/12 at 09:27 PM

What fixings did you use for the throttle bodies to the adapter plates? There is very little space on the TBs for the bolts or did you tap the plates and use studs?
Also Ive got hold of the Jenvey modular fuel rail but it's designed for 14mm 'O' rings and the GSXRs are only 10mm-Jenvey say you can just put bigger 'O' rings onto the injectors-has anyone else done this?


Glade - 24/7/12 at 11:14 AM

I tapped holes and used one cap head screw on each TB.

The TB casting has something in the way of the right hand hole, and without some rework you can't get a screw in.

The interference fit with the bracket, the sealant and the single screw make it very solid though.