seems to me that this forum is 'storming' at the moment... what has changed?
do members have to agree to a code of conduct about how they use this valuable site? and what are the appropriate consequences?
what will we have to agree to to ensure the true purpose of this site shines through? (has it ever really stopped?)
soooooooooooo many questions, but it seems to me we can sort it
p.s. oh, will someone email snoopy to ask him to read this poll!!!
[Edited on 4/1/07 by doughie]
3 minutes
22 views
3 votes!!!!
cummon, leave your opinion to make this poll carry some weight...
Personally I'm not sure I would want too go down the road of moderators, can cause more problems than they solve at times.
Just an opinion.
It occurs to me that 99% of the people here are fine, upstanding individuals who enter the forum in the spirit that was intended when starting the
whole thing in the first place.
Sadly there are a few individuals who don't know when to back off and 'let it be' and they just carry on bleating about other
people's opinions.
I think a small core of moderators is a good idea to keep the extremists in check. They can help stop the personal slanging matches and keep the
spirit of the forum going .......... but that is just my personal view.
hmmm deja vu...TOL
Just behave yourselves and stop winding people up 
Most on here are mature adults, all you have to do is behave like one
I come on here for enjoyment, if i see something i dont like then i ignore it. Simple as that.
[Edited on 4/1/07 by flak monkey]
Either i have had my head up my backside all over xmas (most probable!) but i have not noticed anything bad about this forum (except for 1 person!).
It's still miles better than any other auto forum in my opinion.
Look i'm even smiling 
Personally I think it has been a great forum and it's helped me in my build, and it's good to see other projects.
As long as the key aim of the forum is to share information and support each others builds then we can't go too far wrong.
I agree that it has got a bit personal, though, again only in the minority. As long as we think before we reply and ask ourselves the question, is my
answer actually helping to answer the original query and help our fellow locost builder?
Cheers
Ian
I think we could do with a group of moderators personally, not just because of the recent upset but to help out Chris. deleting threads should only be
done when completely necessary, but as said, 99% of people on here seem fine in all threads I've read, people have differing opinions, and some
just don't understand that its each to their own.
Regards
Matt
quote:
Originally posted by doughie
seems to me that this forum is 'storming' at the moment... what has changed?
do members have to agree to a code of conduct about how they use this valuable site? and what are the appropriate consequences?
what will we have to agree to to ensure the true purpose of this site shines through? (has it ever really stopped?)
soooooooooooo many questions, but it seems to me we can sort it
p.s. oh, will someone email snoopy to ask him to read this poll!!!
[Edited on 4/1/07 by doughie]
I've not been on over Christmas and so heve missed the issues but I don't see a big problem.
Before I click "Post Reply" I ask my self
1) Is it true
2) Is it helpful.
If not either I change it or don't post.
I broke this rule recently and apologize to Jon Ison for it.
It's a great forum with great people so lets concentrate on the good and ignore the bad. There is alot of actvity and only a very minor element
that is unhelpful.
As Flak Monkey says, just ignore the bad elements and keep it positive.
Moderators are a bit too over zealous with the deleting and curb members freedom, that's why they're not liked. However the way the forum is
going a few moderators may be useful, mainly for the benefit of the newbies.
I think the slagging off is quite funny and breaks the forum up a bit, but the number of 'attacks' from genuine posts are getting
ridiculous.
I'm glad I've finished my car, it seems the majority of posts are shite.
I still drop in now and again, but wonder how many people I could give advice to, but can't be arsed to log in.
I've noticed some posts from Muzchaps, we build our cars about the same time and noticed his posts, similar thoughts to mine.
Newbies needing advice have to wade throught the shite to get to the good stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by pajsh
Before I click "Post Reply" I ask my self
1) Is it true
2) Is it helpful.
If not either I change it or don't post.
It's a great forum with great people so lets concentrate on the good and ignore the bad. There is alot of actvity and only a very minor element that is unhelpful.
As Flak Monkey says, just ignore the bad elements and keep it positive.
Moderators completely ruin forums IMO. It all ends up being a clique with the 'power' corrupting. The only moderator that will ever
completely work in line with your opinions is you.
I've disagreed with a number of things that have happened over the years, but I just ignore the (few) people who are out to boost their ego and
shout out others.
Though I agree with Donut, I've only been skimming over Christmas but apart from a couple of threads it's not been obviously terrible.
p.s. not sure what trader moderators are/would be. Most of the traders have fan-boys who act as their sales reps on here but it's all unofficial
(as far as I can see). Or do you mean the traders would moderate? <shudder>
Perhaps the best response is for us all to boycott any responses which are personal or intended to create friction.
If these posts get no responses I would hope the individuals will cease. The only point of adding controversial posts is to generate a negative
response and a heated debate.
Perhaps some members had difficult childhoods and now want to stamp their mark on the world.
I think this is a great forum, although I spend far too much time on it, and without the help and advice I probably would get the same level of
enjoyment from my car.
I for one will not be adding comment to any post which is unproductive.
It's simple really, you could probably get rid of 4 or 5 people and sort all the problems but moderators will probably cause more hassle and
anyway people can just join again as someone else so it'll solve nothing really.
Just ignore the people you don't see eye to eye with and if they post then just disregard there comments.
Works for me.
Rich.
i dont think they should be deleated but frozen, and repeat offenders should be loged off say for a week or something like that
It is sad to see how personal people make these threads, i really like this forum, is one of the best i have ever used despite me having a classic car
and not a locost, (though we did start one years ago). everyone is really helpful with advice and generous too.
I really hope it doesn't crash and burn as its a really good resource on the net, i would say a few moderators to make sure nothing really bad
stays would prob work, but maybe some sort of election to become a moderator? not sure if that would work tho.
Who modreates the moderators?
Unless you go the route of elected reps, by area or interest you can't make it work.
The web master i suppose could ask for a representitive few to view posts and comunicate together to bring threads to a close if they have gone off
topic or delete inapropriate comments.
It always amazes me how very, very brave people can be when not face to face, tha standards of behaviour on a web site can be trully offensive.Without
the normal subconsious psychology restraint that we get from face to face communication things soon get out of hand.
In essence you would not act like that in a pub and get away with it for long.
I for one feel that any comment that is openly abusive or threatning should be deleted and that anyone being threatning or abusive should be banned,
who does that is still a matter for discusion.
Hey Fesy - good to see you still lurking about!
To be honest I used to use this forum extensively for help/advice - but now as Fesy points out - it's clogged up with shite.
Now - I simply pick up the phone and ring Mark/Colin at MAC#1 - they continually offer advice, encouragement and a top quality service AND I
don't even own a MAC#1!!!!!!
I can't help feeling that some basic moderation is needed - Graeme is right - you don't DELETE posts, you just 'lock' them so that
no new posts can antagonise anybody.
The problem with this is - if we were all down the pub - none of this would be happening. Or we would exclude certain people if they could not
communicate civilly. It's amazing how many people hide behind a keyboard - I wouldn't say anything on here that I wouldn't be prepared
to say to somebodys face - I also believe the majority think like me.
This place used to be a daily visit for a good laugh and to check out progress of people like Fesy/Big Wazza/Graeme/RazMan/Ned/NS Dev etc - who were
all building whilst I was
Now it seems farcical. I'm glad the majority of posters on this thread are what I believe to be the 'genuine' people - lets keep this
up!
Perhaps we need a WIKI section as well as a forum? We could supplant any information contained in the threads to a WIKI - the WIKI could be moderated
like WIkiPEDIA - so that any 'new' members can consult the WIKI like a bible. e.g. search for Type-9 - and it details everything this forum
knows about a Type-9 - it could even include links to builders who have used the box and in what scenario, e.g. mated to a pinto/zetec/k-series etc.
IMHO this would be a far greater resource and completely remove the argumentitive element?
Thoughts ?
M
The wiki idea was tried, but crashed and burned due to lack of interest. It's a lot of work to get the the information in there to start it
off.
http://www.carbuilders.info
Something I (and many) dont like but it should be said as it is techniacally an option....
Running a closed forum. Ie, people post a question or success/failure, event/landmark etc and all replies happen within a closed conversation. People
then can only criticised the original post but it does stop 'studio development'.
Personally I think the site has changed due to changes in the industry. The market place seems to be focused more on 'kits' than locost
now.
Also a lot more money is being spent (related?!) and i think this has produced a different attitude to the build. Perhaps it could be said to be more
competitive and takes more to 'individualised' things.
I think I read the site reflected this and is officially called kitcarbuilders even though i still use a locostbuilders branded site!
This is not criticism of people, companies or the site. Just the background to problems as I see it. Are we all victims of a changed attitude?
Don't critised me for this post. Yes it is frank, but its personal experience based opinion too.
Wasn't actually gonna post on this thread but I really like this site and don't want it to fail.
As said some people with 'little man syndrome', 'low self esteem', 'chip on their shoulder' etc etc will hide behind
their monitor and provoke other users.
SO WHAT! I personally find it amusing and laugh at the individuals inadequacies.
What I never do is take the bait and respond, Thats what they want. Just read it, laugh at it, ignore it and continue with the thread in a
constructive way.
We appear to a bit too sensative regarding this.
I think a single deputy to assist Chris would be useful as some users are still getting popups and to monitor for any particularly unsavoury avatars
which have caused problems in the past for users at work, but not to moderate or censor posts.
These blinkered and self righteous posters ammuse me, dont make them go away
IMHO of course.
John
I'm against moderation, detest being told what i can or cant do or say.
I reckon the problem with moderators is, you tend to find the folks that put themselves forward to be mods, are the ones with too much time on their
hands, perversly its the people with too much time on their hands, that cause most of the trouble in the first place....
Beware it's the rocky road to ruin
Al.
I have a few personal rules that generally work for me:
1. If I am unsure of my facts, either I don't post or I say that I am unsure.
2. If a topic is generating arguments then I don't open it any more.
3. If certain members start to take an interest in a topic, then I don't open it any more.
4. If certain members say that something is gospel, then I take it with a very large pinch of salt. Saying that, there are many whos opinion I do
trust.
5. If someone makes a personal attack on me, or on a friend, then I respond off-line via e-mail or U2U.
This policy has meant that I haven't been bothered by any 'bad vibes' for ages! Anyone who remembers TOL will know just how bad things
can get...
cheers and smiles,
David
I have been reading this forum for over a year now, I am yet to start my build (still gathering cash and wife brownie points). I only hope the
bickering could stop so it is still around when I come to build.
The trouble with moderators are: who will moderate?
In the last 5 years i can only think of one person who chris had to remove from the site,thats not bad going.
It seems that the self moderating has worked well and in the past a u2u or e-mail has sorted out any problems.
As for people leaving the forum because of this or that....... just go, dont tell us your going as it looks like a vote of support is wanted. (even
though i think charlie/snoopy should stay as his knowledge pre SVA is 2nd to none)
Did I miss something?.....what happened?
True, I don't read everything, but I'm soprised something slipped past me.
I know there are few onging personality clashes, but nothing to remotely suggest any underlying problems with the group.
I say keep things as they...we are all grown up, kind of..
I think that self moderation is the best policy. This is FAR & AWAY the best & most helpful forum of ANY type that I have ever seen or used,
both for it's engineering content (which is not always right, simply because it is written by individuals with their own opinions - surely that
is what a forum is about) & for it's assistance with all sorts of other info such as computers, electrical. plumbing etc. B4 we head down the
moderator route, perhaps a repeat of some of the basic rules regarding what is "suitable" behaviour might be in order if Chris would put
something in the "Announcements" section?
If there was a specific way to respond if anyone found anything said offensive upsetting, disrespectful or just plain out of order - presumably by
first contacting the offending party privately by u2u or email then I suspect most offending posters would edit or remove if they realised they had
given offence.
Personally I would never intentionally write anything I thought would genuinely give offence - but I know I can be a sarky git!
If there was an option in the poll for no moderators I would vote for that
edit: just reread the poll self moderation is good for me
[Edited on 4/1/07 by mookaloid]
I agree with Muzchap....I think moderation is a waste of time for all the reasons highlighted. The forum has managed well enough thus far so why ruin a good thing? I think two new sections could be created. One where you can go and eternal slag each other off till the cows come home away from the real locost site and another section of like FAQ's for the build that could be links to really useful threads or something. Would make navigating for new members much easier and would also allow ppl to slag each other off if they wish and also allow the rest of us to ignore them! Kind of like a bitching room??? Oli.
IF you have to bad mouth someone then please have the b8lls or moral backbone to do it man to man, / woman to woman, / face to face, / handbag to
handbag, / etc.
Better still don't say anything because they really are not worth the effort.
Each time someone leave this forum it is a terrible loss, just because of someone else's ego. The loss of information from the knowledge base
will NEVER be replaced.
Everyones opinion is valid but it is up to the individual ONLY whether
1 they have to listen to it
2 respond to it
3 ignore it
For example Tony Blair in reality really does know what the majority of the British people think of him. And yet he stays in power.
Enjoy
I cant vote.
1. No experience of moderated sites,
2. Dont understand what qualfications a moderator would need to have to be useful and not fan the flames.
3. Is a moderator any better than those doing the bitching in the first place? Who gives them the right to say what goes and what doesnt? (other than
if its for legal reasons)
4. As 99% + of the posts are informative / amusing etc i dont believe moderation is needed.
I for one would be really narked if i started a serious technical thread that got hijacked by the slingers and was then deleted or frozen.
I've moderated on a number of other sites and being a balanced reviewer is very difficult. You do get a Them/Us feeling but it usually comes from
the users not understanding the role of the moderator. It isn't just to moderate the posts, it's also to protect the site. A lot of stuff
that gets said on forums could be classed as libel and have detrimental effect on the forum.
As for the "current situation", as I see it there are 3 groups. Those doing the winding and the baiting, those that get affected by it and
those that ignore it. One of the key things about forums is "Don't feed the troll" With no food he goes quiet. Now this isn't a
personal dig, it's my view point.
There are a lot of very intelligent people with a lot to offer on here. If someone is winding you up, add them to your ignore list. If they post on a
sensible topic you can view each post as you see fit.
If you can't deal with that and want to leave then don't bother with the "I'm going" threads, it's a bigger waste of
time and further food for the troll.
I would give this site 12 months tops if we started having moderators. I've been here for 5 years now (bloody hell!), built 2 cars and still get
a lot out of the site (and hoping for more). Leave well alone gets my vote!
I find some of the sniping amusing, and read it in the same way as some people watch Big Brother (which I hate, incidentally!). I cringe sometimes at
comments made, but on the whole, I stay out of it. (with a few exceptions).
Can someone U2U with a brief summary of WTF is going on?!?!
Perhaps I've been in too good a mood over Chrimbo to notice the mini beefs!!!
TBH honest Ben the beefs are nowt major and probs tamer than they have been for a long time. You have certainly missed nothing by having a good time
instead. I wouldnt waste part of your life even trying to find them.
I reckon the biggest thing with this site is that we are all fantastic in that we can build cars. So many people wouldnt have a clue. Unfortunately we
are all at it so its no big deal anymore. When you get so many big achievers in one place there bound to be some clashes. There is a saying about more
chiefs than indians and too many cooks etc. At the end of the day we are all MD's or our mini-empires.
This site has always worked by being self moderated and hopefully will continue to be. In the past similiar things have happened and generally blow
over after a few days, if people didnt post on the argumentive topics the people concerned would soon get bored and give in.
The other list as many people know went downhill as soon as it became moderated , luckily this far better site came along at about the same time.
Apart from the if we had moderators im sure the few that are causing problems would also think that they should be the moderators for the reasons
previously mentioned.
Paul.
This is a great resourse it'll be a shame for it to go to the dogs.
I think Mr Jenkins rules are the most sound, if your not sure, keep quite until you are and if you don't like what you read don't bite.
But there still has to be independent views.
Sounds simple without the need for moderators.
ATB Dan, wishing the site a long and happy future.
Moderation is dangerous. It always starts with the best intentions but often runs out of hand and ruins a forum. Self moderation is far and away the
best solution.
It's mentioned we are too sensitive to the few that are abusive/rocking the boat, which is probably true, but I suspect only because this has
traditional been such a friendly forum where personality clashes/idiots have been virtualy non-existent, or at least not very visible.
I think that people are too quick to become defensive. Like I guess it is my post that started all this off...
At the end of the day this is a public forum for car builders to come together and help one'another build their cars. If somebody has to
question a technical aspect of a car, then so be it... Between us lets come up with a solution. I spent a few hours last night reading through all
the past posts regarding a certain company and it appears that there are a small minority of folk that instantly ambush anybody that dares to question
their design... WTF I ask? Why all this animosity?
As far as I am concerned, the only thing that needs moderating, as has been said before, is some of the the avatars!! and not because I don't
like them 
Part of the fun is taking this wee out of each other's posts. Of course the difference is that it is taking the wee in a lighthearted friendly
manner rather than having a slanging match and being arses.
One problem with moderation is that you need very broad minded moderators that only curb the worst of it/just add comments and not censor, or are
regularly changed so that they know they are there to "assist" the forum, not "own" it and don't get the arse when they feel
they are pushed out of the role. The usenet group sci.military.moderated was pretty good for that, cept when the moderator was overloaded with
work.
The worry is that without moderators it can turn into a self obsessed clique. Or people just delibrately acting the tosser to provoke others.
I've seem this happen many times in usenet. A lot of usenet is now ruined by "keyboard warriors" like this.
The worry is that with the move from locost to kits that a fanboi attitude starts to develop. Thats when it will all turn to poo like the games
console forums.
Hopefully the ones who are getting a bit heated know what damage they _could_ cause if they go too far.
What about democracy? I know people are saying self moderation is the best but some people just seem unable to do it and oddly enough haven't posted in this thread. What about a lock tab next to the U2U and other tabs where if enough people click it, because they think its getting out of hand, the thread locks? I see there's a report but where's that go to? Chris is obviously too busy (which isn't a complaint, very fair enough) the tab could self manage. Just my pennies worth, for what it is worth.
No moderators for me as well, reasonable debate by consenting adults should not need any.
Unreasonable debate by the petty and self righteous should be seen for the light entertainment it is.
Now can I go back to looking down on all of you purile copyists while I weld a new front end on my Original Copy.
I think self moderation is the only way to go, if we want to keep the site as good as it has been!
If you think someone is out of line, or has way over stepped the 'line' then press the 'report' button at the top right hand
corner (where the 'edit' and 'quote' buttons are).
My own personal opinion is that if people leave this site, then great resources of knowledge, humour, wit and 'internet friendship' go with
them....
This means that the 'bullies' win their own personal argument. The bully can be ignored, but then bullies usually prod and prod until
someone is provoked.
Or, stand up to the bully(ies), and take the risk of getting flamed and insulted.
It is indeed a very fine line.
Perhaps as I have said before, make more use of the 'report' button?
Fozzie
But where does the report button go? The land of lost socks? Is bullies too harsh a word? I think it is as I do think one way or other each opinion
is valid and can be accepted or disregarded without fear of ...erm you know what word I'm looking for, I've forgot. Its not a jibe at your
post by the way Fozzie
its all been said really, i agree with all the above. All i can add is that it takes two to tango, if someone's posts annoy you, ignore it. Or if
you cant ignore it, be prepared for the kerfuffle that will follow!
I sense a lot of anti calvinx in this thread, though no one has named him. He can be rude but he isnt always wrong. Refer to above, it takes two.
I think the ignore button is a good idea, but then, people often quote whoever offends them so that it is clear who they are replying to, and so that
their post cannot later be deleted, so ignoring one person wouldnt always be enough.
As someone said though, it can be quite fun all the fireworks. You mustnt take it too seriously! If you disagree with someone it can be healthy to let
them know.
Aye people can be rude and informative, but that doesn't make it right to be rude as if its something every one has to accept. Its not really
being rude, its more just being an arsehole.
I've spent the last few years working in a place where the attitude was that being an office bully was the way to move up the ladder.
Unfortunatly that meant that a lot of people who were talented and shared knowledge left.
No offence taken MrGrumps...
Is bully a too harsher word? If so I apologise for may lack of thought, it has been a very long day at the workshop and even longer at Stansted
Airport, then negotiating the M25 in rush hour
By the term 'bully' I actually meant
bully= name calling
bully= insulting individuals
bully= not listening/respecting others opinions
Sorry if I hadn't made that clear
The report button goes to ChrisW. I am sure it doesn't go into the 'lost socks dept'
Yes, I know he hasn't been on the site much of late, he has been busy, he has had a house move or 2.... I am sure he will be back very soon.
Fozzie
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
its all been said really, i agree with all the above. All i can add is that it takes two to tango, if someone's posts annoy you, ignore it.
Cheers Fozzie. No I actually think you're right there with the bullying explanation, spot on, my fault sorry.English isn't my best language.My thing is that since joining this forum, about July last year I have only ever heard from Chris once, when he wanted money (no offence there, good on him) so I've never seen him posting. I do know though that some people do regularly mail him and complain about members but nothing comes through so I think that some kind of, whats the word? discipline?? moderation?? should be present. After all there are loads of genuine people on this forum. I've never met a more friendly forum and its as much as a social thing as well as informative.
1700 views is a credit to this site and it looks like the masses have spoken, ta!
refreshed my thoughts...
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Quoted for truth...
You can't change others, only yourself
No moderator.
But a WIKI were great.
If we all could put our knowledge in one sorted place!
Grzt Theo
I'm only a newbie, but haven't seen many arguments on here. I'm a spark and used to use screwfix forum, but don't bother now as every post turns into a slanging match. Pretty much every sensible question asked on here gets a sensible reply, and any banter seems light hearted to me. I'm not building anything at the moment but just planning for when i'm able to. As a novice I like the idea of some sort of wiki, seeing what would work with what etc. Anyway just my opinion, no doubt start picking some brains soon, steve
There is a WIKI on here... its the button marked "SEARCH"
This is a very good forum, and apart from a few posts that turn sour, generally it's well above average.
Considering the ratio of Bad posts to Good posts, Self Moderation is working well.
Its a good forum with the majority being good sensible people, willing to help each other.
PS... Dont forget to Contribute to the running of the box. A fiver or more if you can, all goes to keeping one of the best forums alive and kicking
from the financial point of view.
I believe any "nastyness" that we have seen recently is a Kit Car Owners version of SAD (Seasonally Affective Disorder) Where the Bad
weather, poor light, and cold temperatures have made us all GRUMPY, and unable to vent our feelings /or get any release by taking out your car and
having a good medicinal BLAST up the road.
Thats my 2d worth