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What are they teaching 'in' schools???
Jasper - 4/7/13 at 11:10 AM

Just been to my local sandwich shop and the young and well spoken lad that served me had to use a calculator to add up £4.50 and 80p.

Bloody hell, I was really shocked

Edited to correct my terrible mistake in the title....

[Edited on 4/7/13 by Jasper]

cliftyhanger - 4/7/13 at 11:21 AM

More to the point, why are you spending nearly a fiver on a sandwich!

iank - 4/7/13 at 11:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
More to the point, why are you spending nearly a fiver on a sandwich!


Brighton prices

dhutch - 4/7/13 at 11:27 AM

I've had a graduate engineer reply to an exhaust lagging supplier "I think you have specified too high a temperature range, and you please quote for 80-100 degrees" .

- Supplier had quoted for a 650deg product
- The lagging goes with in 6 inches of the manifold
- Ambient air temp is circa 50deg, underbonnet, could more like 70


I asked him what would happen if you threw water on the exhaust, expecting to talk him through the explanation that it must be over 100deg, he just said he didnt know.


Now admittedly this is not within the UK, but equally, he claims 6 years engineering experience.



Daniel

Jasper - 4/7/13 at 11:34 AM

Sorry, that should have been £3.50 for the sandwich Free range chicken!!

TimC - 4/7/13 at 11:35 AM

You can't deny that there is some considerable irony in you missing the word "in" from your topic title.

[Edited on 4/7/13 by TimC]

Mr Whippy - 4/7/13 at 11:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by TimC
You can't deny that there is some considerable irony in you missing the word "in" from your topic title.

[Edited on 4/7/13 by TimC]


Yeah noticed that too

Doctor Derek Doctors - 4/7/13 at 11:50 AM

Maybe he was dyslexic? Or perhaps he had made a mistake earlier and had another grumpy customer having a go at him? Or maybe he just not very good at maths in his head?

I cant really see how you have managed to jump from someone you know nothing about needing to use a calculator to blaming the schools system.

stevebubs - 4/7/13 at 11:52 AM

or perhaps he was Mr Tim, Nice but Dim...

deezee - 4/7/13 at 11:59 AM

When I'm interviewing for engineering positions (civil / industrial) its pretty clear that the applicants know nothing outside of the course and even then its vague. Most refer to "I don't recall that, but I covered it in coursework" or "I'd just check on the internet".

My humble and limited experience leads me to conclude that they don't commit anything to memory and only know enough to pass a test that poorly reflects real world applications.

Its great knowing loads of algebra and getting an A in geography and media studies, but most don't even know imperial dimensions and are unable to think on their feet. Oh well.

cliftyhanger - 4/7/13 at 12:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by iank
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
More to the point, why are you spending nearly a fiver on a sandwich!


Brighton prices


Him or me?
I make my sandwiches, or if I am a good boy the lady wife makes them.
I take a flask when working on site too. Or teabags when working in school.

Me. tight? You bet when it comes to lunch.

Jasper - 4/7/13 at 12:02 PM

Yeah yeah, ok, so I was so surprised I couldn't type properly......

I have just noticed a lot of this lately in shops with younger staff. This guy sounded well educated and the shop was very quiet, so not under any pressure. In fact he did the calculation twice just to make sure....

As I fast two days a week it's just not worth me making sarnies ......

[Edited on 4/7/13 by Jasper]

jps - 4/7/13 at 12:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by deezee
most don't even know imperial dimensions


Now I don't work in an engineering scenario - so this is an honest question - but is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

A few years ago I worked in a warehouse for a few months picking loads for DIY stores - and 8'x4' was 'actually' 2440mm X 1220mm....

TimC - 4/7/13 at 12:08 PM

I'm always surprised when people (it was my FD this week) can't 'annualise' weekly figures in their head. Seriously, how hard is it to add two naughts, divide by two and then add twice the number that you started with?

tims31 - 4/7/13 at 12:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
quote:
Originally posted by deezee
most don't even know imperial dimensions


Now I don't work in an engineering scenario - so this is an honest question - but is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

A few years ago I worked in a warehouse for a few months picking loads for DIY stores - and 8'x4' was 'actually' 2440mm X 1220mm....


Yes, if you work with any American company in engineering then thats all they work in. Boeing in particular...

coyoteboy - 4/7/13 at 12:11 PM

I often check very simple calculations in my calculator despite having multiple degrees in engineering and plenty of practical experience. It's more natural to do that because usually the calculations are a lot more complex than X+Y but the habit rolls over. But maybe this guy just struggled with quick maths in his head.

I have a friend who can multiply two 6 figure numbers in his head while having a conversation. He might ask why we're all so stupid that we can't do that, but he's no good at engineering!


quote:

Yes, if you work with any American company in engineering then thats all they work in. Boeing in particular...


Hmm in my experience they tend to work in mm these days, but I have had to deal with cm and inches in a number of projects.

[Edited on 4/7/13 by coyoteboy]

mcerd1 - 4/7/13 at 12:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by deezee
When I'm interviewing for engineering positions (civil / industrial) its pretty clear that the applicants know nothing outside of the course and even then its vague.
well I've just done a job were the civil engineers (big national company) claimed not to be able to calculate the load that was goint to be applied to there new bases so I got the job to do the calc for them....

you might assume this ment it was very complex, but its just a big cylinder with a weigth and a bit of wind and the customer even specified the wind preasure

so that means: weight * 9.81 = vertial load,
and height * width * preasure * 1.2 (for a cylinder) = horizontal load
then half the height * the horizontal load for the overturning

still it keeps me in a job I guess





[Edited on 4/7/2013 by mcerd1]

iank - 4/7/13 at 12:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by iank
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
More to the point, why are you spending nearly a fiver on a sandwich!


Brighton prices


Him or me?
I make my sandwiches, or if I am a good boy the lady wife makes them.
I take a flask when working on site too. Or teabags when working in school.

Me. tight? You bet when it comes to lunch.


Him, iirc Jasper works in Brighton (didn't actually notice your location).

coyoteboy - 4/7/13 at 12:26 PM

That's usually done when the person who "can't" just doesn't want to, or hasn't budgeted the time to. Or thinks the assumption of static wind loading in the environment required is possibly an under-simplification and doesn't want to get into the detailed design but also doesn't want to accept the liability for the design.

twybrow - 4/7/13 at 12:28 PM

I always find it amusing (sad) when you hand a shop assistant the extra change when purchasing something - i.e. you buy an item for £4.20, and pay them a fiver, and 20p piece. They they count out the 80p change, and hand you back the 20p.... Genius.

stevebubs - 4/7/13 at 12:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
I always find it amusing (sad) when you hand a shop assistant the extra change when purchasing something - i.e. you buy an item for £4.20, and pay them a fiver, and 20p piece. They they count out the 80p change, and hand you back the 20p.... Genius.


A few of them stop and think about it first, too....

Agriv8 - 4/7/13 at 12:37 PM

sorry Chapps going to have to stick up for the teachers a little SWMBO is one.

In the my wifes old school she spent most of here time teaching them English before she could get to the maths !!!

The one that could speak a little english were taught how to get the good test scores for the league tables !!


ATB Agriv8

mcerd1 - 4/7/13 at 12:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
....is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

yes, every day at the moment

luckly for me my dad has always worked in imperial units so I'm used to it, but some of the younger guys we've got here really struggle...

we still build alot of steelwork that was last re-designed in the 1940's - 70's and no metric drawings have ever been produced and no one wants to pay for them

and at the moment we making alot of structural aluminium and most of that comes in imperial or 'english' sizes (US made)
infact alot of steel is still made in imperial sizes its just given a metric name these days
(i.e. a 203x203x46 UC = 203mm x 203mm x 46 kg/m or 8" x 8" x 31 lb/ft universal column )

we do convert everything to mm before it goes to the workshop though - having both measuing systems on the same shop floor would be asking for trouble

[Edited on 4/7/2013 by mcerd1]

mcerd1 - 4/7/13 at 12:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
That's usually done when the person who "can't" just doesn't want to, or hasn't budgeted the time to. Or thinks the assumption of static wind loading in the environment required is possibly an under-simplification and doesn't want to get into the detailed design but also doesn't want to accept the liability for the design.

I would have agreed with you, but when you've submitted them a calc (in a nice clear format) and they come back asking lots of very basic questions it satrts to become obvious that they just don't understand it

by the sounds of things he was just pugging numbers into a spreadsheet and had very little idea of what they meant

[Edited on 4/7/2013 by mcerd1]

coyoteboy - 4/7/13 at 01:00 PM

Oh dear. That doesn't sound good!

Litemoth - 4/7/13 at 01:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
Just been to my local sandwich shop and the young and well spoken lad that served me had to use a calculator to add up £4.50 and 80p.

Bloody hell, I was really shocked

Edited to correct my terrible mistake in the title....

[Edited on 4/7/13 by Jasper]



Maybe he was new to his job, had made a mistake with change previously, got a rocketing off the boss/grumpy customer and so thought "bugger this, I'll put everything through the calculator twice in future"

That is, his confidence had gone.

I've certainly been there in my younger days.

Slater - 4/7/13 at 01:15 PM

The oil industry work in API unit or US units so it's feet, inches, lbs, gallons etc.

I have a Lufkin tape measure marked up in feet, with inches on one side and metric feet on the other (1ft split in 10). Useful for measuring pipes and then adding the lengths up. like 30.75 ft + 31.15 ft.

morcus - 4/7/13 at 02:19 PM

As said a lot of industry is in imperial, but its something you can pickup on the job, teaching time is precious so its a waste to use it teaching how to use the many non SI systems. The current system is more weighted to looking things up than committing to memory but this isn't a bad thing if done properly so they learn the correct process for finding things out. I've worked with a lot of people who've caused serious problems because they though they knew best rather than looking things up.

deezee - 4/7/13 at 03:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
Now I don't work in an engineering scenario - so this is an honest question - but is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

A few years ago I worked in a warehouse for a few months picking loads for DIY stores - and 8'x4' was 'actually' 2440mm X 1220mm....


The big primary industry plants, that are still going, are traditional and were designed and erected in imperial days. So when you repair it, its imperial.

Everything has metric measurements on it, but its tooled. cut and profiled in imperial. Problem is the metric people like to round off to the nearest metric size. You round off enough and the whole design is incorrect.

So when I go to a plant to measure up, I know a 90mm pipe isn't 90mm its 88.9mm, because really its 3" nominal bore. I know if it measures up around 150mm centres, its really 6 inch centres and you round off for 5 centres, by the end you're out a half inch out.

I don't have to work in imperial, I prefer metric (don't like fractions). But I need to appreciate that pretty much the whole UK is still designed in imperial sizes, its just marked up in metric because it has to be.

me! - 4/7/13 at 03:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by deezee
My humble and limited experience leads me to conclude that they don't commit anything to memory and only know enough to pass a test that poorly reflects real world applications.

Its great knowing loads of algebra and getting an A in geography and media studies, but most don't even know imperial dimensions and are unable to think on their feet. Oh well.


As a recent-ish (2007) graduate, this is about spot on. I realised that as the world and his wife were doing degrees, I needed to stand out a bit. So to me this meant a) MEng rather than BEng and b) I had to get a first. The MEng bit is easy, just do four years rather than three, but the first is a bit more tricky. I meticulously went through all the past papers, and any advice about the format of the exams (eg. six questions, one on each topic, answer four) and worked out what I needed to do to get the mark required. This basically set my revision, which I treated as a job for the few weeks between the end of coursework and the start of exams. Once I had done an exam I was pretty good at forgetting all about it and moving on to the next one.

My favourite moment was in a final year advanced combustion chemistry lecture, one lad put his hand up and asked what a reciprocating engine was. I nearly crapped myself laughing.

Unfortunately it is a bit of a game, I could have done an apprenticeship and I would be better at my job but I'd be paid £10-15k less a year and would have missed out on uni, which were some of the best times of my life. I had an exit interview when I left and told them I thought the course was a load of crap, but thanks for the first. Two weeks after my last exam, and on the day of my results, I got a job. So it worked

I disagree about the imperial bit though! And I can add up

mcerd1 - 4/7/13 at 03:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by deezee
I don't have to work in imperial, I prefer metric (don't like fractions). But I need to appreciate that pretty much the whole UK is still designed in imperial sizes, its just marked up in metric because it has to be.
well put, and if anyone thinks it sounds crazy then you should see what the americans have come up with

our old imperial 'Ton' was 2240 lbs (aka: 20 CWT or 160 stone) which is about 1016 kg - so very close to the metric Tonne and a small error if you got the wrong one

but the americans 'short ton' is only 2000 lbs or 907kg big room for error
ok 2000 is easier to add up than 2240, but why not just go the whole way and make it 1000kg ?

[Edited on 4/7/2013 by mcerd1]

Fred W B - 4/7/13 at 05:20 PM

What's fun is if say you and a young engineer are discussing a sample part or piece of material and someone asks exactly what a particular dimension is, as they look for the tape or rule you squint at the part and say for example, "recon that's 76mm" and when they measure it they are amazed it is exactly that. Of course it was just a good guess that the original design dimension was 3"

Cheers

Fred W B

Vindi_andy - 5/7/13 at 10:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tims31
quote:
Originally posted by jps
quote:
Originally posted by deezee
most don't even know imperial dimensions


Now I don't work in an engineering scenario - so this is an honest question - but is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

A few years ago I worked in a warehouse for a few months picking loads for DIY stores - and 8'x4' was 'actually' 2440mm X 1220mm....


Yes, if you work with any American company in engineering then thats all they work in. Boeing in particular...


This was the cause of a very close call a few years ago when a british company sent drawings in metric and the american company building the product were working in imperial.

Also I was taught in college (engineering) that Centimetres do not exist to an engineer. Its always Millimeters and metres. Again I remember hearing of an issue that was caused by this misunderstanding when the drawing was in Millimetres and the manufacturers worked in Centimetres increasing the scale of said product by a factor of 10

mcerd1 - 5/7/13 at 10:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Vindi_andy
This was the cause of a very close call a few years ago when a british company sent drawings in metric and the american company building the product were working in imperial.

another common error is 'Thou' and the american 'Mil' both meaning 0.001" but often confused with mm

dhutch - 5/7/13 at 11:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
Now I don't work in an engineering scenario - so this is an honest question - but is anyone still working to imperial dimensions in the UK in manufacturing/engineering?

A few years ago I worked in a warehouse for a few months picking loads for DIY stores - and 8'x4' was 'actually' 2440mm X 1220mm....

I think, as have been proved, it very much depends what industry you work in.

My work (Design Engineer for JCB) is almost exclusively metric, there are a few bits where its clear that the main boom pivot is 63.5mm dia is historical, and very very occasionally when you looking at legacy parts because someone said "have a look what we did back in ... on the ... because that was a bit like what your suggesting" there are in inches (an usually hand drawn, microfilmed, and the digitised to get them onto the plm system) but everything else is metric. Other than the use of BSP hose fittings.

That said, you have to have a vague handle the old systems, for when you boss or suppler asks 'could we move it 6inchs that way?

Which as my dad works in mixed units, I have picked up. I also tend to estimate large lengths in imperial, again i guess from my childhood and if im transferring lengths when rough-cutting timber for a fence/shed/whatever i'll use whatever comes to hand first on the tape for the lenght in question.

I have been known to shout out '5mm short of 10ft' before now when measuring out which raised a chuckle form the bloke I was working with, who was already amused by my mixed units.


quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
I always find it amusing when you hand a shop assistant the extra change when purchasing something ....
They they count out the 80p change, and hand you back the 20p.... Genius.

Yeah, sometimes I do wonder, but again its because they have put it into the till already, its more work to change it to include the extra 20p.

quote:
Originally posted by TimC people can't 'annualise' weekly figures

Is the even a word? I think prehaps it is not!




Daniel

dhutch - 5/7/13 at 11:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by me!As a recent-ish (2007) graduate, this is about spot on. I realised that as the world and his wife were doing degrees, I needed to stand out a bit. So to me this meant a) MEng rather than BEng and b) I had to get a first.

My favorite moment was in a final year advanced combustion chemistry lecture, one lad put his hand up and asked what a reciprocating engine was. I nearly crapped myself laughing.

I have to admit, as someone who graduated in 2010 (fractionally more recently) and who also went got the M.Eng, partly to 'stand out' , partly to make employment abroad easier, and partly to simplify the route to being chartered, I went for the the 'Get a middle of the road 2:1' approach.

Partly as being someone not naturally cut out for academia i'm not sure I could have maintained the anal retentiveness, but also because it freed up time to get out more, enjoy life, see the world, and dick about with car/engines/welders which I think adds to my rounded appeal and target job sector.

Load knows, but three years on having fallen into a job with my placement company on a good starting wage, done some pretty enjoyable work in the UK I've just being sent out to one of our Indian sites as a senior to support and manage the engineering team of a project out here, so its not going too badly so far.



Daniel

mcerd1 - 5/7/13 at 12:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
I have to admit, as someone who graduated in 2010 (fractionally more recently) and who also went got the M.Eng, partly to 'stand out' , partly to make employment abroad easier, and partly to simplify the route to being chartered, I went for the the 'Get a middle of the road 2:1' approach

you lot are making me feel old

I graduated in 2003 with a BEng hons in mech eng (4 years up here) and I was never any good at the academic/science bits (only got a 3rd, should have worked a bit more and got a 2:2 or maybe a 2:1 with no life at all)
but then I'm quite happy with the more practical side of things and my job suits that

one thing I've always found is that its very rare to get someone who is really good at both the practical and the academic, we did a fair bit of hands on practical stuff in the workshops and it really showed up the differenct skill sets




...anyway getting back on topic, it can't all be down to the schools some blame has to land with the parents
I'm not just thinking about mental arithmetic or spelling (i.e. not the same as maths and english)
- its the answers they seem to get when they ask kids more general questions about where food comes from and stuff like that that worry me more

[Edited on 5/7/2013 by mcerd1]

cs3tcr - 5/7/13 at 02:49 PM

When i was in school here in Canada all i was taught was Metric, at home though everything was in Imperial. When i went to a technical school following highschool we were taught both Imperial and SI (mm not centimetres). Following techinical school all i used was Imperial as i was working with pre-1980 British sports cars. Now i'm working for an Engineering firm and we have to produce drawings to the clients specifications, some clients want Imperial, some want SI, and some of the clients with older buildings and equipment will request imperial even thought their design standards call for metric. The odd thing for me is, i cant show you with my hands how long 150mm is, yet i can for anything in imperial. Luckily, as its been stated earlier in this thread, most if not all steel sizes we use are hard converted from imperial to metric, and all piping is made to imperial sizes, even though it would be called up on drawing as metic (ie 80mm sch 40 pipe would be the same as 3" sch 40).

I would honestly like to get back into using metric as its easier to add up, but i just cant for the life of me look at something and tell you how long it is in SI.

Vindi_andy - 5/7/13 at 02:59 PM

My mum says her sewing teacher said "the difference between a metre and a yard is the length of the frills on a french girls skirt" just for a bizare way of remembering which was longer, and that was quite a few years ago given I have just turned 40. She said at the time it made her jealous because it meant french girls had 3 inches more of frills.

Sorry ill let this thread get back on track now