Why can we not all live happily, next to each other, with out any hatred
Religion and beliefs, wow, what a sad end
steve
Another sad day! When will it all end?
Never. Humans are idiots.
Sadly, I am not sure it ever will. There will always be people hell bent on destruction of the world. It just happens there are quite a few currently who believe in the same idiotic ideology. Selfish I know, but I can't help feel relieved that it wasn't in the UK. Are we better with intelligence, or do you think it is just down to geography/borders?
To be honest the world in full of arseholes, so never.
It's only a matter of time before we get another incident in the uk!
Lunatics
Never. Until we stop teaching kids to believe in fairies, santa claus and the yeti and other such bollocks. And instead tell them that each individual
life is simultaneously completely irrelevant and immaterial and yet (to that person's nearest and dearest) the most important thing in the world.
Regardless of how many people you kill you'll never do anything to the masses (who simply don't care) you just ruin the life of people who
don't have the power to change anything.
It's just a shame those who cannot find a reason to live don't just cap themselves rather than deluding themselves into believing in a
"cause" and taking lots of others with them.
But then religion mostly prays upon those who need a reason to live. Or need a validation by which to die. The truth is life sucks. Deal with it
rather than finding an excuse on which to live.
To quote I heart Huckabees: Caterine Vauban: "The woods are hopeless. Don't waste your time, they will be destroyed. So will the marsh. It
is a losing game mankind has played for more than a century. Sadness is what you are, do not deny it. The universe is a lonely place, a painful place.
This is what we can share between us, period."
Good movie btw. Very amusing.
They do have a reason to live. But they also think they have a reason to die!
The government needs to toughen up and human rights needs to get a grip and get with reality.
The problem is there's so many of them living amongst us now. We don't know who's who or where to start.in order to put a stop to it
The government know who and where they are and still paying them benefits
The governments around the world could stop it tomorrow if they wanted to.
I have never hated any one to the end of killing them, yep some have pissed me off but ....so be it ...
Why can we not all live happily, next to each other, with out any hatred
Religion and beliefs, wow, what a sad end
steve
It's all politicay manufaured for its own use.
Open borders means everyone is open to attack
Lets face it we don't really know who is amongst us do we ?
Sadly this will now be a reality for anybody, anywhere...
Was interesting to read the Aussie prime ministers comments on Europe's open door policy, He basically said that we are heading for a fall....
Time we get out of Europe and shut the island down!
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Time we get out of Europe and shut the island down!
I'm having trouble getting much information on this. I've been all over the web and finally resorted to the news on TV, but very little
other than there have been multiple attacks, apparently at a music event and a soccer game?
And yet I've seen a map showing 4 different places so what happened at the other 2 places?
Who were the shooters?
Why were they shooting?
What's supposed to be the significance?
Maybe in the morning I'll see something
Sky news have live feeds Texan if you can get one!
Closed borders didn't stop the IRA.
Knee jerk reactions don't stop the problem, they just move it. We need to stop blaming 'them' and start looking at 'us'. The
more were divide the more groups we create who'll want something different. If we maintain our policies of invading countries we're just
showing the smaller and smaller groups the way forward is violence.
Before you ask, no I don't have the answer. If I did I'd be shouting it from every roof top. I just worry this is the start of a major world
upheaval & keep thinking how all the steps leading up to world war 2 were very sensible in context of the events of that time and disastrous in
hindsight. I'm thinking were repeating mistakes with out learning making us fools.
quote:
Originally posted by Texan
I'm having trouble getting much information on this. I've been all over the web and finally resorted to the news on TV, but very little other than there have been multiple attacks, apparently at a music event and a soccer game?
And yet I've seen a map showing 4 different places so what happened at the other 2 places?
Who were the shooters?
Why were they shooting?
What's supposed to be the significance?
Maybe in the morning I'll see something
quote:
Originally posted by kj
The governments around the world could stop it tomorrow if they wanted to.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Closed borders didn't stop the IRA.
Knee jerk reactions don't stop the problem, they just move it. We need to stop blaming 'them' and start looking at 'us'. The more were divide the more groups we create who'll want something different. If we maintain our policies of invading countries we're just showing the smaller and smaller groups the way forward is violence.
Before you ask, no I don't have the answer. If I did I'd be shouting it from every roof top. I just worry this is the start of a major world upheaval & keep thinking how all the steps leading up to world war 2 were very sensible in context of the events of that time and disastrous in hindsight. I'm thinking were repeating mistakes with out learning making us fools.
Religion has killed more than any other reason in history. We need our leaders to get a grip and stop any religious schools and to separate religion
from everything else.
Why do we have the Lords filled with religious leaders for example?
We also need to be prepared to stop being driven by the Liberals who believe everyone is good and those involved in terror is because we made them do
it by our past.
We need to take those who incite violence in the name of a sky fairy and lock them away in isolation so they can not infect others.
I have family in France and there is a sense of shock from them but also a fear that the far right will now start attacking anyone who is Muslim
looking in revenge.
Where are the moderate Muslim leaders condemning this across the world?
It is a sad day for humanity.
So why is this government cutting the budgets of Defence, the MI's and the police by so much.
It will happen here and we won't be able to respond
Just maybe this will make them think twice about some of the cuts. We send millions abroad we need to divert some of that to equip ourselves
correctly. remember this has been done by just 8 people, imagine the carnage if it was 20 in differing locations, how would we respond then.
Maybe it will also make some think our open boarders need closing and awkward questions asked of the communities where these sort of radical people
come from. The backlash could be huge and probably what those who are organising these attacks want. Big backlash, more converts.
To my mind the next attacks will not be in London, they will be in soft targets where there is less defence and survailance. Look at every shopping
centre in the run up to a Christian Holiday, how easy would it be when the best defence there is a fat man in a jumper with a badge to stop carnage?
& my facebook feed is now full of idiots asking us to pray for the victims - yup, that's gonna help loads!
Jeremy Corbyn thinks we should have captured Jihadi John & brought him to trial - yeah? really? perhaps he'd like to pop over to Syria &
bring a few of the ISIS people back personally for "talks" - these events were very likely in response to Jihadi John's killing, but
does that mean we were wrong to take him out?
The problem is that we in the western world can have no means of understanding what goes on in the minds of people who have been brought up in a
completely different society to ours & brainwashed from an early age into total belief in a higher power that if they martyr themselves is going
to grant them a marvellous "next life"
Closing borders & screaming for blood isn't an answer, that something needs to be done is pretty obvious, but exactly what I certainly
don't know & I don't suppose anyone else really does either - knee jerk reactions are highly unlikely to provide an answer either
It's very sad times indeed.
If you get a chance to watch the documentary Bitter Lake it gives one of the most plausible reasons on how the world got itself into this mess.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake
Jim
My opinion? Don't feed the cowardly terrorists the publicity they thrive on. Don't give them nick-names or any sort of infamy.
Then fight fire with fire. Infiltrate the ring-leaders and send the boys in. Leave no traces and leave them wondering wtf was happening. They'd
soon start looking at each other and eventually have a pop at each other....
As for folks ranting about the refugees that are Isis...the refugees are fleeing from these idiots. Perhaps 8 Isis members hid amonst the genuine
refugees but that's a tiny proportion of them.
8 may be a tiny proportion of them but look what they achieved if they did come in that way. Apparently a passport has been found near one of them showing where he came from. I cannot help but feel that when we went down the route of faith schools here that did untold damage. Not saying thats the full story but it sure hasnt helped.
quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
Religion has killed more than any other reason in history. We need our leaders to get a grip and stop any religious schools and to separate religion from everything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
I'd offer a slight adjustment to that statement. 'More people have killed in the name of religion than any other reason'..
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Time we get out of Europe and shut the island down!
Actually the Koran does advocate going out and killing people unless they convert and worship Allah. However it also recognises that Jews and Christians worship the same God, so providing these pay a tax to true believers they are to be spared. It's well worth reading. The Old Testament isn't much better. Where would people be without the guidance of a caring and benevolent God ? Regardless most Muslims ( and Christians ) tend to have more sense than implement the instructions, but the sad few who don't can legitimately claim it's the will of God. There seems to be no way of preventing stupid people doing horrendous things.
quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
8 may be a tiny proportion of them but look what they achieved if they did come in that way. Apparently a passport has been found near one of them showing where he came from. I cannot help but feel that when we went down the route of faith schools here that did untold damage. Not saying thats the full story but it sure hasnt helped.
Saddam would have sorted them out.
quote:
Originally posted by minibull
Actually the Koran does advocate going out and killing people unless they convert and worship Allah. However it also recognises that Jews and Christians worship the same God, so providing these pay a tax to true believers they are to be spared. It's well worth reading. The Old Testament isn't much better. Where would people be without the guidance of a caring and benevolent God ? Regardless most Muslims ( and Christians ) tend to have more sense than implement the instructions, but the sad few who don't can legitimately claim it's the will of God. There seems to be no way of preventing stupid people doing horrendous things.
I was finally able to get some information this morning. Last night I kept getting headlines that something had happened but no substance.
It is as I expected and feared
Once you are past the training of how to use a gun or suicide vest (which of necessity has to be simplicity itself) the planning and coordination of
these types of things are child's play - literally. As a kid we planned more elaborate raids upon the other kid's forts when we played.
It doesn't take encrypted this or that, you could plan this out in the open on Facebook if you wanted. Once the weapons are in place the
"high level planning" really could have been as simple as all of them going out for pizza and afterwards deciding "Hey, let's do
this thing."
So unless they were incredibly stupid or they bragged about it ahead of time how in the world would anyone expect the authorities to know? I mean
there's no reason to ascribe some sort of mystical powers or high level thinking & planning to these guys. Even an idiot could pull this
off.
Al Queda and others have had training camps for decades where they've trained a million or more people how to use the weapons. That means the
tough part has already been done.
If you do any amount of reading or have been in the service you realize that in a military operation the hard part isn't getting to a target and
destroying a person or persons, IT'S THE GETTING OUT ALIVE PART THAT'S TOUGH. If you don't care if you get out alive then the rest is
child's play to a determined person.
You can't stop an attack by a small number of people who don't care if they get killed. Add to that a religion or a belief style that makes
it an honor to die this way and it's inevitable.
So I'm another with nothing constructive to say and definitely no solutions.
[Edited on 15/11/15 by Texan]
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
I'd offer a slight adjustment to that statement. 'More people have killed in the name of religion than any other reason'..
I have to disagree and a quick google tends to support that. More died due to economic, tribal, national or politicak wars.
The total is between 16 million and 31 million deaths due to religion in recorded history. By comparison, 60 million people died in World War II.
the estimated figure of 6 million Jews who perished in ww2 is taken into account in the 16-31 million, not sure if that was included in the 60
million. again googling shows that 160 million perished in wars in the 20 century alone, and there were quite a few before that where over a million
people died so the number is far greater than that killed due to religion.
[Edited on 14/11/15 by 02GF74]
Mmmm, so lets forget about those killed in the name of religion then as its a smaller percentage. I THINK NOT!!!
Yeah thank GOD for statistics
[Edited on 14/11/15 by myke pocock]
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
the estimated figure of 6 million Jews who perished in ww2 is taken into account in the 16-31 million, not sure if that was included in the 60 million. again googling shows that 160 million perished in wars in the 20 century alone, and there were quite a few before that where over a million people died so the number is far greater than that killed due to religion.
[Edited on 14/11/15 by 02GF74]
In WW1 battle of the Somme Butcher Haig wasn't bothered about the the tens of thousands of his own men killed because he was convinced he was
sending them to heaven.
Back in the 13th Century a fairly harmless Christian sect in the South of France & Northern Italy were wiped out to please the then Pope, the
last 166 Cathars mainly simple fisher folk were held in the Scaliger Castle at Sirmione and then marched naked to the Roman Arena in Verona where they
were burned at the steak en mass.
I'm not religious myself but respect (most of) those who do believe in some form of god (or 'Sky Fairy' as someone else put it 
)
However, despite the many good things that religion is capable of bringing to the world I can't help but feel it is a net loss when measured
globally over the long term. I believe that 'Faith' is something that we can all benefit from but that faith can be in ourselves, in our
family & friends or just in the balance of nature, it doesn't have to be faith in some all powerful being or in a church. Let's not
forget that our churches and religious leaders have let us down in some terrible ways over the years too.
As someone who grew up in the West of Scotland with religious segregation of schools, how can this possibly do anything other than cause tension and
division? I attended a non-religious school and had many friends who attended RC schools but those friends were never as close as those I spent my
school time with for obvious reasons. I also witnessed religious tension on many occasions and although I never caused this personally, it was almost
impossible to avoid as there are always those within your extended groups of friends who have more extreme views than yourself and somehow you get
caught in the crossfire. The only alternative you have sometimes is just to go home and isolate yourself from everyone, something I had to do more
than once sadly.
I don't know what the solution to all this is but if we're not in a position to change the ways of the world at large, which clearly we are
not, then the best we can do is try to protect our own corner of the world. To that end we need to continue to invest in defence and maintain our
nuclear deterrent. Perhaps one day the technology will exist to allow us to detect and disable or destroy nuclear weapons as they are launched but
that seems unlikely if you have seen recent reports about the Russians developing nuclear torpedoes. Even nuclear submarines can deliver warheads with
little chance of shooting them down over enemy territory.
We also need better control of our borders, as I believe that the attacks on Paris are most likely a result of easier access to that country than our
own although it would be foolish to believe that we can prevent half a dozen or so attackers from getting into the UK. Fortunately it is a bit more
difficult to get weapons into the UK but again probably not impossible to those willing to die for their cause.
Above all we need to stop segregation of UK citizens so that people have fewer reasons to 'defect' to Syria (or anywhere else) because they
feel unwelcome in the UK. Everyone who is already a UK citizen should feel proud of this country and should be made welcome and have all the
opportunity they could desire to have a prosperous and happy life here. People immigrating here should be controlled in a way that ensures a good
cultural fit and be given a constructive introduction to UK life rather than sneaking in through the back door. Again, integration over division, but
in a controlled way.
Anyway, my thoughts are with those affected in France and around the world.
ps. I don't believe that this attack was in response to Jihadi John being killed. This attack would have required considerable planning and I
doubt it could have been arranged in less than a day.
[Edited on 15/11/2015 by craig1410]
Doesn't it all come down to money and power?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that those accused of or guilty of suicide and similar attacks in the name of religion are disenfranchised
in some respect. It's not a single religion or location that leads to this behaviour as people with local ancestry are being radicalised too.
(very interesting couple of documentaries called something like 'my brother the islamist' and 'my brother the terrorist' shows the
radicalisation of what otherwise appeared to be a normal middle class white lad)
Obviously people like osama bin laden came from a more privileged background but then he wasn't the one rushing out to blow himself up, in fact
it seemed he went to very great lengths to avoid being located and to stay alive as long as possible.
Funny that.
Always seemed interesting to me as an outsider that you hear on the news of these radical preachers who apparently are the source of a lot of plans
or ideas for terrorist attacks in which younger people are encouraged to have no fear because what they're doing is for the greater good and
they'll be looked after in heaven or wherever... but none of the leaders ever get caught 'bomb-in-hand'.
Do the youth that get pulled or pushed into these organisations ever wonder how there is anyone left in the group if they could just blow themselves
up to go to heaven? Or indeed how come the preacher or leader is so old and yet they've stuck around all this time in a world filled with
inequality or whatever that only fatwa or similar can heal?
hmm, just seems a bit fishy.
Little difference really between any of this and the historical intertwining of church and state in so many countries and its use to control the
masses. I would have thought the only real way to make a big lasting improvement in global security will be to improve the standard of living for
everyone. Surely it is inequality that breeds all this nonsense. I'm not going out starting holy wars because I've got to be at work on
Monday and if I go to work all week then maybe next weekend I'll be able to afford a few beers and to relax for a few minutes.
Get everyone a job, some responsibilities, a couple of quid. job done. If only resources weren't finite and mankind so jealously greedy.
There is certainly a lot of truth to what you say - there always seem to be people who seek to manipulate others and sadly there are always plenty of
vulnerable people looking for leadership however misguided it might be.
I suppose the closest most of us might come to understanding this is if our own lives or those of our loved ones were ever threatened. Ask yourself
what you might be prepared to do to prevent the death of a loved one or yourself. There are people who can manipulate vulnerable people to experience
this emotion and then direct the response to serve their purposes.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
8 may be a tiny proportion of them but look what they achieved if they did come in that way. Apparently a passport has been found near one of them showing where he came from. I cannot help but feel that when we went down the route of faith schools here that did untold damage. Not saying thats the full story but it sure hasnt helped.
Faith schools were and are the cause of most of the problems in Norther Ireland and the West of Scotland and that was among so called Christian faiths.
It's all very sad.
I'm sure the vast majority of people all over the world, regardless of their personal circumstaces, just want to get on with their lives and make
the best of the opportunities that they find or make for themselves.
You're absolutely right by the way about the need for integration but I fear it's not that easy and requires generations of mandatory
inclusive environments (such as schools) and I really think it has to go hand in hand with economic improvements. Not easily managed, though a shift
in government attitude to pre Thatcher politics to aim for complete employment rather than fluidity of labour for the benefit of company owners would
reduce idleness and lack of self worth in the UK population for a start.
I worry more about all the knee jerk reaction to this type of event. Yes it's absolutely attrocious what happened but we can't simply raise
the drawbridge and take this out on the milions of genuine refugees fleeing exactly this type of thing occurring on a daily basis in Syria.
Sometimes religion has some good ideas. We need to learn to turn the other cheek sometimes.
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
8 may be a tiny proportion of them but look what they achieved if they did come in that way. Apparently a passport has been found near one of them showing where he came from. I cannot help but feel that when we went down the route of faith schools here that did untold damage. Not saying thats the full story but it sure hasnt helped.
Faith schools were and are the cause of most of the problems in Norther Ireland and the West of Scotland and that was among so called Christian faiths.
The problems in Northern Ireland may have been prolonged by faith schools, but they were not the cause.
In recent history in England there has never been any problem with Christian or Jewish faith schools; I have not heard of any problems with Sihk or Hindu schools either. There does seem to be a problem with Islamic schools at the moment, possibly because Islam's values seems not to fit in at all with the values of Western society.
quote:
Originally posted by ravingfool
Doesn't it all come down to money and power?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that those accused of or guilty of suicide and similar attacks in the name of religion are disenfranchised in some respect. It's not a single religion or location that leads to this behaviour as people with local ancestry are being radicalised too. (very interesting couple of documentaries called something like 'my brother the islamist' and 'my brother the terrorist' shows the radicalisation of what otherwise appeared to be a normal middle class white lad)
Obviously people like osama bin laden came from a more privileged background but then he wasn't the one rushing out to blow himself up, in fact it seemed he went to very great lengths to avoid being located and to stay alive as long as possible.
Funny that.
Always seemed interesting to me as an outsider that you hear on the news of these radical preachers who apparently are the source of a lot of plans or ideas for terrorist attacks in which younger people are encouraged to have no fear because what they're doing is for the greater good and they'll be looked after in heaven or wherever... but none of the leaders ever get caught 'bomb-in-hand'.
Do the youth that get pulled or pushed into these organisations ever wonder how there is anyone left in the group if they could just blow themselves up to go to heaven? Or indeed how come the preacher or leader is so old and yet they've stuck around all this time in a world filled with inequality or whatever that only fatwa or similar can heal?
hmm, just seems a bit fishy.
Little difference really between any of this and the historical intertwining of church and state in so many countries and its use to control the masses. I would have thought the only real way to make a big lasting improvement in global security will be to improve the standard of living for everyone. Surely it is inequality that breeds all this nonsense. I'm not going out starting holy wars because I've got to be at work on Monday and if I go to work all week then maybe next weekend I'll be able to afford a few beers and to relax for a few minutes.
Get everyone a job, some responsibilities, a couple of quid. job done. If only resources weren't finite and mankind so jealously greedy.
Find out who is supplying them arms stop it job done too simple maby, think about it a gun is no better than a club with no bullits
Not usually one for reading the Guardian, but this explains a lot of what is behind ISIS
quote:
Originally posted by ali f27
Find out who is supplying them arms stop it job done too simple maby, think about it a gun is no better than a club with no bullits