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EU Referendum II

Cubby - 25/6/16 at 11:23 AM

Help get EU referendum II

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

joneh - 25/6/16 at 11:35 AM

There should be another vote especially after the leave campaign have already backed out of several key pledges.

femster87 - 25/6/16 at 11:53 AM

Waste of time

theconrodkid - 25/6/16 at 12:00 PM

what if the brexit win with a turnout of 85 %,would they call for another one till they get the "right" result like they did in Ireland ?.
if you win a race by 1 inch or 1 mile,you have still won.

bi22le - 25/6/16 at 12:12 PM

Yeah thats sensible, create more instability and unknowns.

What is wanted from pt2? The same decision but a bigger majority or a remain vote pushing it to a 3rd tie breaker?!

We are out. Now its time to pull our socks up and get on with proving to the world that the reason we are who we are is because we are ALL british and great and contributing to the world. We have more wit and forward thinking than any other country in the world.

Dont look back, the decision has been made.

By the way, I voted out but would of been happy either way. I was not tricked by lies. My reasons are mainly to prevent us being pushed down a route not appropriate for the UK and to make our country morw dynamic and accountable. We are unlike anyother country in the EU yet are being treated the same.

I am also very likely to be personally affected as I work for the design centre of an international company, my wife works in London, designing its future buildings and akyline. . . .

[Edited on 25/6/16 by bi22le]

chillis - 25/6/16 at 12:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
There should be another vote especially after the leave campaign have already backed out of several key pledges.

The sheeple voted to leave, even if they now begin to realise they've fallen for the oldest trick in the book. Time to suck it up and live with the consequences.

phelpsa - 25/6/16 at 12:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
what if the brexit win with a turnout of 85 %,would they call for another one till they get the "right" result like they did in Ireland ?.
if you win a race by 1 inch or 1 mile,you have still won.

This isn't a competition though, it's about making a decision based on the facts. Of which most prior to the referendum (on both sides of the argument) were exaggerated, sensationalised or just outright fairytales. As the real consequences start to unravel opinions could change drastically (in either direction). What really needs to change is the approach of political environment from 'what can we do to win' to 'what is in the best interests of our country / continent / planet'.

balidey - 25/6/16 at 12:19 PM

Shock horror... politicians tell lies. Who'd have thought it?
Just because you don't get the result you want it doesn't mean you get a do-over.
The public has been calling for an EU referendum for years, not just in this last government.
There has been a referendum with a massive turn out.
Although very close, there has been a majority.
What on earth is there a need for another vote for?
And why should the second one count more than the first.
How about best of 3?

coozer - 25/6/16 at 12:30 PM

Its a one sided call for another vote by the remainers.

We've had the vote and gone down the right path!

We had an online petition to stop the massive foreign aid budget but that was ignored!

Slimy38 - 25/6/16 at 12:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
There should be another vote especially after the leave campaign have already backed out of several key pledges.

Why limit it to the leave campaign? As far as I can tell every elected government does exactly the same thing!!

phelpsa - 25/6/16 at 12:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Its a one sided call for another vote by the remainers.

We've had the vote and gone down the right path!

We had an online petition to stop the massive foreign aid budget but that was ignored!

Ignored because it was stupid and petty?

joneh - 25/6/16 at 12:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
There should be another vote especially after the leave campaign have already backed out of several key pledges.

Why limit it to the leave campaign? As far as I can tell every elected government does exactly the same thing!!

Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.

benchmark51 - 25/6/16 at 01:26 PM

Decision was made and should stand. Or is someone going to start a petition against the petition.
The time is right to forget division within our ranks and work together and show how Britain can get things right.

mark chandler - 25/6/16 at 02:25 PM

As Cameron said, it's a referendum not a neverendum, get over it!

jeffw - 25/6/16 at 03:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.

Must be a very strange place you inhabit with that world view. So, to paraphrase, anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a racist and old and now the bankers are in charge (who lie)

Well as an Old Stupid Racist (allegedly on the last two) I can tell you this is the last thing the 'lying bankers' wanted.

theconrodkid - 25/6/16 at 03:36 PM

quote:Originally posted by joneh
Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.

Must be a very strange place you inhabit with that world view. So, to paraphrase, anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a racist and old and now the bankers are in charge (who lie)

Well as an Old Stupid Racist (allegedly on the last two) I can tell you this is the last thing the 'lying bankers' wanted.

being old like me means we are worldly wise,un-educated ? ,like the majority of this world,i didnt go to uni but have a lot more common sense that the snowflake generation of unibods of today,as for being racist,my EX is a truley united nation of African,Indian,Chinese and irish descent and my current GF is Polish....do your comments relate to me as well ?.
the ones that could see through the EU voted out,we won,end of.

joneh - 25/6/16 at 03:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.

Must be a very strange place you inhabit with that world view. So, to paraphrase, anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a racist and old and now the bankers are in charge (who lie)

Well as an Old Stupid Racist (allegedly on the last two) I can tell you this is the last thing the 'lying bankers' wanted.

Firstly, I didn't say racist but if you choose to label yourself as such, I won't argue. People are fine to have their point of view and I haven't said that everyone who voted leave falls into this category. These three categoties undoubtedly formed the majority of the leave vote.

I also didn't say the bankers wanted that. My point is more that there isn't currently a party leader who I'd want to hand total control over this country.

StevieB - 25/6/16 at 05:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chillis

The sheeple voted to leave, even if they now begin to realise they've fallen for the oldest trick in the book. Time to suck it up and live with the consequences.

I quite agree. I was a Remain voter personally.

I'm disappointed with the result but not going to dwell on it - it is what it is and we as a nation now have to make it work rather than spend more time falling out about it.

My concern was the reason for people's voting - immigration dominated the day where I think people are biased and misinformed about what more was actually at stake. I was also concerned that one particular person interviewed stated his reason for voting leave was, well, he's never not been part of EU so might as well see what that's like.

Ultimately, if the EU hasn't been working for us in the way it should have been (and I think we can all agree improvements were needed no matter what your stance on their referendum) then maybe we do need a change. If you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results - trying something different will certainly bring different results (for better or worse).

We now need to accept where we are, face up to it and make it a worthwhile change for the better.

I voted Remain, but I won't sign the petition - this is democracy at work and sometimes you're not on the winning side, but it is the flip side of the freedoms that we enjoy. But that only works as long as we can't go around having do-overs for every referendum that doesn't suit people...

britishtrident - 25/6/16 at 06:10 PM

As Emile Zola put over 100 years ago
" The public was astounded; rumors flew of the most horrible acts, the most monstrous deceptions, lies that were an affront to our history. The public, naturally, was taken in. No punishment could be too harsh. The people clamored for the traitor to be publicly stripped of his rank and demanded to see him writhing with remorse on his rock of infamy. Could these things be true, these unspeakable acts, these deeds so dangerous that they must be carefully hidden behind closed doors to keep Europe from going up in flames?

[Edited on 25/6/16 by britishtrident]

sonic - 25/6/16 at 06:47 PM

I think it was the right decision, my only concern is that nobody seems to be jumping up from the leave camp to grasp the nettle and take the lead.

Boris has buried his head and everybody else has gone quiet, I would have thought the leave squad would have had a plan and be delivering it confidently, the country needs a voice to lead them now.

It would be like me going to my MD and thumping the desk saying we should do this and that, he then gives me the green light and I go quiet and have no plan to deliver.

I also think Cameron is sulking, at the end of the day he and his party were elected to serve the people in a democratic way, just because he didn't win he has took his bat and ball home, he would have had more credibility if he had said he doesn't agree with the decision but he is a public servant and will do everything in his power to lead the UK to be the great country it is and can be.

Whoever does take the mantle will make a great name for them selves if they get it right.

onenastyviper - 25/6/16 at 07:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sonic
I think it was the right decision, my only concern is that nobody seems to be jumping up from the leave camp to grasp the nettle and take the lead.

Boris has buried his head and everybody else has gone quiet, I would have thought the leave squad would have had a plan and be delivering it confidently, the country needs a voice to lead them now.

It would be like me going to my MD and thumping the desk saying we should do this and that, he then gives me the green light and I go quiet and have no plan to deliver.

I also think Cameron is sulking, at the end of the day he and his party were elected to serve the people in a democratic way, just because he didn't win he has took his bat and ball home, he would have had more credibility if he had said he doesn't agree with the decision but he is a public servant and will do everything in his power to lead the UK to be the great country it is and can be.

Whoever does take the mantle will make a great name for them selves if they get it right.

Perhaps the reason so many have gone to ground is because neither side expected the result.
Remain probably expected it to be close but that they would win as people (generally) like stability and whilst not perfect, it was stable.
Leave probably expected to loose a close race and use it to justify a new era of eurosceptiscm and calls for EU reform etc. etc. etc.

We now have the worst possible scenario - no-one knows how to go forwards nor what the result will be - it has never been done before.

All those calling for us to be "Great" again seem to forget that we are now a small player in a very large globalised world with a very imbalanced economy.

Yes, we have "skills" but we also have skills shortages and years of evidence of these "skills" simply getting up and leaving to more appealing climates and this has the potential to put a lot of people and their livelihoods at risk and no aspect of "making Britain great again" makes up for not being able to feed your family.

Personally speaking, I really hope that all the parties involved (winning or loosing) are spending the next hours and days carefully considering their positions because their approach to what happens next may mean the difference between us being able to feed our families or standing outside food banks/soup kitchens.

No-one is celebrating or cherishing this outcome.

ali f27 - 25/6/16 at 07:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sonic
I think it was the right decision, my only concern is that nobody seems to be jumping up from the leave camp to grasp the nettle and take the lead.

Boris has buried his head and everybody else has gone quiet, I would have thought the leave squad would have had a plan and be delivering it confidently, the country needs a voice to lead them now.

It would be like me going to my MD and thumping the desk saying we should do this and that, he then gives me the green light and I go quiet and have no plan to deliver.

I also think Cameron is sulking, at the end of the day he and his party were elected to serve the people in a democratic way, just because he didn't win he has took his bat and ball home, he would have had more credibility if he had said he doesn't agree with the decision but he is a public servant and will do everything in his power to lead the UK to be the great country it is and can be.

Whoever does take the mantle will make a great name for them selves if they get it right.

ali f27 - 25/6/16 at 07:48 PM

Far from sulking the conservative grandees still run the show and cameron would be told he had to go they are about to put Boris in as their puppet .I hope that somebody starts to calm things down before people get hurt I looked at the front page of the sun today and one of the storys read Nichola Sturgeon planning to blow up uk this kind of trouble making has to stop before it gets hold there have been a lot of nutters brought out of the wood work lets not play into their hands.

britishtrident - 25/6/16 at 08:01 PM

No serious politician on either side wants to sort out the mess, anybody who eventually gets the job will just get blamed for all the tough decisions that throw people out of work and reduce pensions. Nobody will seriously trust Boris, most of the other tories prominent on the exit side are tarnished in some way or are so far to the right they make the late General Franco look like a moderate.
All the while a self-important perma-tanned spiv looking increasingly like Oswald Mosley holds court adoring the attention .

In Europe they are really scared not least because increasingly vocal extreme right will demand the same in a dozen countries so the Euros are playing hard ball, but watch this space they may come back with with some sort of comprimise a special associate member offer.

Now Wee Nicola looking like a younger version of Angela Merkel steps up to the plate, significantly now with the support of Scottish Lib-Dems and makes moves protect her nations' place in the EU until she can hold another Scottish referendum. If a Scottish referendum is held Scotland will choose the EU over an increasingly inward looking and right wing England.

Johneturbo - 25/6/16 at 09:55 PM

Bugger, i didn't win the lottery, can we have a re-draw untill i win

JoelP - 25/6/16 at 10:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.

Must be a very strange place you inhabit with that world view. So, to paraphrase, anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a racist and old and now the bankers are in charge (who lie)

Well as an Old Stupid Racist (allegedly on the last two) I can tell you this is the last thing the 'lying bankers' wanted.

He inhabits reality. If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated.

Do you have a degree?

02GF74 - 25/6/16 at 10:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
No serious politician on either side wants to sort out the mess, .

Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day and Monday I expect will be the same as will the rest of the week.

Ignorance and racism won. I think it was the wrong decision but the common market which UK signed up to in 1974 (?) had mutated into something no longer acceptable and successive government weren't able or unwilling to stand up to it.

There is no reason for anything to change in the short term, long term wise we will end up paying more e.g. import tax, VAT when buying from Europe, pay for visas to travel etc than if we had remained but it is a wake up call to the beauracrats who run the EU that something is not right.

jeffw - 26/6/16 at 04:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP

He inhabits reality. If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated.

Do you have a degree?

Since when did a degree define education? If you look at the voting 9 out of 12 regions voted to leave, basically everyone except London, Scotland & NI. I'm pretty sure there are educated people outside of these regions.

[Edited on 26/6/16 by jeffw]

mark chandler - 26/6/16 at 06:31 AM

"If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated."

Jez, what a narrow minded view, thanks for that! Average intelligence is the same whatever age you are once grown up, older tend to have more common sense, it's called life experience!

i cannot remember ever not being in the common market, I work with lots of mixed race people and we off-shore loads of work, the Indian and Pakistan workers that come over need Visa's, it is not a problem for them although the majority exist at the end of a piece of wire. If you want to work abroad what is wrong with having a few controls, it does not stop you if you have a plan and not a criminal record.

For myself I have only met the hard working Polish/Romanian/German/Spanish/Italian etc. And they are all lovely, I have also met plenty of lazy native British and I know which ones I would want as my neighbors.

i voted on the 'take back control", nothing to do with race or money apportionment, the remit and direction has exceeded the goal of a common market, even they admit to much meddling in other countries affairs.

All this bull about workers directives, minimum wages etc, the U.K. Has always been a leading light and I am sure we will continue to be so.

Let's flip your comment on its head, "the election was lost by the young and the clever" does not make much sense either does it?

Phil_1471 - 26/6/16 at 08:00 AM

Erm.... Wasn't this petition set up before the actual result? Back work the dates.... Making it void?

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 08:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day

Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of �billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.

It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.

And the instability is going to be there until at least some time after the actual Brexit has been negotiated and implemented, accompanied by a number of very complex political problems that may now drag on for many years more (Scotland and NI, for a start).

I think British Trident has pretty much summed it up: as a politician, you'd have to be a complete idiot to want to take on this particular poison chalice.

Congratulations to that 52% of the UK voters who chose to walk us off the edge of an economic and political cliff, but that's democracy and we now have to abide by and live with the outcome.

ballcock - 26/6/16 at 09:39 AM

I find it strange to see so many members on this topic against leaving the EU. If the EU had its way no one on this forum would be able to build their own car and run it on the road, or modify other vehicles to their own use without jumping through so many hoops it would not be worth while. I voted to leave an undemocratic union that does our country no justice. Yes there are benefits belonging to the EU but there are far more restrictions. As for democracy if the younger age group feel they have been shafted by the elders they have the ability in the future to build a stronger unified Europe under a different leader ship rather than the existing system. Other Europeen countries might be willing to join an association with the uk which challenges the faults of the present administration. As for Scotland wanting a second out referendum because the majority voted to stay. The same system of democracy that has voted out of Europe also gave them a greater no of Westminster seats than other parties with a larger percentage of the vote. Hope fully we can take the UK to greater hights than whilst being in Europe. Yes it will be a challenge but what have we got to loose, if we had voted to remain in Europe they would have forced more of their policies on us as we would not be in a position to fight back. So forget the bickering and get on with the future.

02GF74 - 26/6/16 at 01:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day

Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of �billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.

It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.

And the instability is going to be there until at least some time after the actual Brexit has been negotiated and implemented, accompanied by a number of very complex political problems that may now drag on for many years more (Scotland and NI, for a start).

I think British Trident has pretty much summed it up: as a politician, you'd have to be a complete idiot to want to take on this particular poison chalice.

Congratulations to that 52% of the UK voters who chose to walk us off the edge of an economic and political cliff, but that's democracy and we now have to abide by and live with the outcome.

I am not expert here but I understood the ftse100 to be indicator of uk companies value, re:

The Financial Times Stock Exchange 100 Index is a share index of the 100 companies listed on the London Stock Exchange
with the highest market capitalization. It is seen as a gauge of prosperity for businesses regulated by UK company law.

Over the past year the ftse100 has been lower and has dropped before and nobody panicked.

Description

It will go up and it will go down, let's see what happens over the coming week before we start running round like headless chickens screaming of doom and gloom. If we shout it loud enough, we will make it happen.

The smart people will turn the situation to the advantage.

A politician worth his salt would take on a crisis, not that I'm saying there is a crisis, not walk away from it.

What economic and political cliffs are you referring too? That's just scaremongering about what has not happened and no one really knows what will happen. And as for Scotland and NI leaving UK, let them go - where is the problem with that?

For better or for worse, the decision has been made so let's carry as best we can instead of being gloomy about the future.

Slimy38 - 26/6/16 at 01:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74For better or for worse, the decision has been made so let's carry as best we can instead of being gloomy about the future.

Hear hear!!

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 01:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74 And as for Scotland and NI leaving UK, let them go - where is the problem with that?

Well, for a start, do you seriously think that NI could leave the UK without the whole sectarian thing kicking off again and a lot of people getting killed?

But presumable you're cool with the idea of people dying, so long as you've got a warm glow of satisfaction from only havingto take orders from a political elite in Westminster instead of a political elite in Brussels?

The latest is that Nicola Sturgeon is saying that the Scottish Parliament would have a veto on exit , anyway, so that's another little treat for any politician 'worth their salt' to have to deal with.

Even Cameron is reported as having said (off camera) that he doesn't see why he should have to be the one to deal with the sh1t that has been voted upon us by people to stupid to recognize the full implications. Why would anyone take on that much grief, for the relatively low salary that goes along with being PM?

mark chandler - 26/6/16 at 02:12 PM

"the sh1t that has been voted upon us by people to stupid to recognize the full implications"

And around we go again ! So anyone that goes against what you wanted is by default stupid?

Pity the clever people did not get there poo together to make the vote go the other way then.

steve m - 26/6/16 at 03:08 PM

"Pity the clever people did not get there poo together to make the vote go the other way then."

Absolutely !!

Its a shame there are so many loser's that want their ball back because they lost to a democratic vote

If they wanted to stay in, perhaps they should of tried harder, not whinge whinge whinge after the votes have been counted
as its a bit late

72 % of the UK population of voters voted of which 52% voted for us to leave, and EVERY single one of those voter's got it wrong ? No, they didn't, they voted for what they believe and wanted,

The other 48 % who also wanted their say, also made a statement, but lost, but at least they tried the very best

What about the other missing 28% ? who didn't bother to vote ? they are the ones both sides should target, as no vote at all, means either a undecided decision or "who gives a poo Neanderthals", who do not care

I had a few friends who were in the undecided camp, at least they were honest (I think)

I will agree that as a nation, a 52/48 split is very close call, but... any more than 50.01% is a win

I am very happy with the decision, and what I voted for, however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be,

steve

britishtrident - 26/6/16 at 03:08 PM

Leaving the EU is also going to cause immense problems over Gibraltar, and don't be amazed if the Argies don't take support from that an cause trouble in the South Atlantic.

BenB - 26/6/16 at 03:57 PM

What's interesting about the suggestion of a second referendum is that the two fairly prominent sources of support for the idea are

1) Farage saying the week prior to the vote that if it was close (and even quoted 52/48) it "wouldn't be the end"
2) The "2nd referendum" petition was actually started by a "leave" supporter

When both of these occured it was looking likely they were going to lose. So when the leave camp think they were going to lose they were all banging on about how if it was close there should be a re-vote. Now they've won it's a different story! In fact the leave camp as a whole have been fairly quiet in the last few days!

Fact is there isn't going to be one. At a time of uncertainty any wavering would be disasterous for the economy which (whether we like it or not) we're all rather relient on. The result of dithering could be even worse than that of leaving.

Truth is that many people who voted for leave didn't know the basis on which they were voting. Same as when Boris became mayor of London- it was mostly a protest vote against Ken Livingston! If you asked people what his policies were they have no idea and still don't. Most know "Boris bikes", ignoring the fact that that was one of the last things Ken actually initiated and had basically nothing to do with Boris. I'm not saying that all people who voted Remain are aware of the facts either- I suspect much of it was "I'm alright Jack".

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 05:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
I will agree that as a nation, a 52/48 split is very close call, but... any more than 50.01% is a win

I am very happy with the decision, and what I voted for, however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be...

Yes, as I posted above that's democracy and we have to abide by the result.

I'm certainly not suggesting that there should be another referendum. Though I suspect that if there were, having now had a chance to see even just the tip of the iceberg on the real implications, it probably would go the other way - I was over in a part of the country that voted overwhelmingly for Brexit for the last couple of days, and I've seen a lot of shocked I'm-sorry-I-didn't-mean-to-break-it responses from people who had seen the initial outcome.

But neither am I willing to stick my head in the sand and pretend that everything will now be rosy if only we pull together, because that's nonsense - it's created a bloody mess that will take decades to sort out and that will be to the permanent detriment of this country.

We're in for a very rocky ride and if you voted out you're going to have to get used to many years of 'I told you so' from the almost-half of the population who could plainly see that it really wasn't such a clever idea, and a lot more complex than 'wouldn't it be good if we could stop taking orders from Brussels and keep the immigrants out'.

steve m - 26/6/16 at 05:27 PM

No one I know voted out, is regretting it, infact the opposite

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 05:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
No one I know voted out, is regretting it, in fact the opposite

Really?

Well, perhaps they're just not admitting it yet?

There was a definite mood of 'Oh, f***, what have we done?!' in rural Lincolnshire.

Though given that I was among an agricultural economy that relies almost totally on eastern European transient labour, that's possibly not surprising. More surprising that they voted so overwhelmingly 'out' in the first place, when to leave would be so obviously cutting their own throats. Boston (Lincs) will be a ghost town, and the crops will be rotting in the fields and glasshouses if all the Poles go home... so you can expect a big hike in food prices, too, if they have to pay enough to attract lazy English people to do the job on UK produce and a 4% import tarriff on EU produce.

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 05:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m...however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be.

Incidentally, are you aware that the big 'second referendum' petitions was actually set up by a Brexiteer?:

Ooops!

Apparently he started his campaign of complaint just a wee bit too early!

BenB - 26/6/16 at 06:08 PM

I suspect a few brexiters have had that "oh sh!t" moment- that pit of the stomach sinking feeling- the kind you have when you honk a car for cutting you up and shout at them to f off and then realise it's a police car When you wince slightly and hope you haven't completely right royally screwed yourself over. The "it seemed a good idea at the time" thing.

BenB - 26/6/16 at 06:16 PM

.... like that moment when you painfully come round after a heavy night out to find you had a Prince Albert done in a peak of youthful exuberance and nothing seems to work anymore and you think "WTF have I just done"?

Okay, that analogy not working for anyone else?

rusty nuts - 26/6/16 at 06:16 PM

This country is supposed to be a democracy , we have just had a democratic vote , if you don't like it then go and live in a dictatorship and see how you like that . In or out we should accept whichever way the vote went and make the best of it.

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 06:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
This country is supposed to be a democracy , we have just had a democratic vote , if you don't like it then go and live in a dictatorship and see how you like that . In or out we should accept whichever way the vote went and make the best of it.

.

Wind yer neck in.

Nobody on this thread - on either side - is suggesting that we should disregard the democratic result.

But a democracy also means that we have the right to debate that result, and that we are NOT obliged to make the best of it - you might not like it, but we have the democratic right to argue that a bad decision has been taken.

If you want an election where the choice is not open to question and the outcome is always right, there are a number of 'Democratic Republics' in West Africa that come (not very) highly recommended.

steve m - 26/6/16 at 06:26 PM

Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 06:37 PM

Incidentally, this country is NOT a democracy.

It's a 'Parliamentary Democracy', which is a euphemism (not unlike those 'Democratic Republics' ) for an oligarchy; just that they've managed to fool most of the people into thinking that the ability to vote for one of two ruling cliques once every 4 years gives them a real say in things.

The one undeniable thing in the referendum's favour is that it was a very rare opportunity for the electorate to genuinely decide upon a single, clear issue.

phelpsa - 26/6/16 at 06:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,

Sam, like most on here, posts mainly on topics about which he is reasonably knowledgeable and experienced, and hence is usually right.

The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.

Toprivetguns - 26/6/16 at 06:53 PM

I'm slightly worried about the voters who ticked both boxes and the other who signed the ballot paper !

mark chandler - 26/6/16 at 07:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,

The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.

It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!

gregs - 26/6/16 at 07:15 PM

An analogy for you:

The population of the UK get offered a chance to all get on the first intergalactic space flight. The spacecraft is totally unknown, but the bloke who built it (who isn't going to get onboard) says it'll be great, he's seen things fly before and its warmer where it might be going... so half the people jump on and hit the big red button - oh and they take their families with them as well even though they thought it was a pretty daft idea....

Now we've taken the democratic decision to leave - we're starting to see the results.

I voted Remain, but I really want to find some positives that have come out since the exit vote was passed.... in the absence of any single positive being aired (other than we're free, it's going to be fine, we've beat the Germans again - WTF???, we've got control of our own country - that we already had) I am still hanging on to any possibility that might exist to remain.

As previously said all the politicians are backing away from dealing with the result of the vote - this is probably a clue of quite how much poop we're now in. So - unless there are some real positives that appear, I'll keep hanging on to any possibility of remaining even if it is more remote than pluto.

As an aside - people please stop talking about Winning and Loosing.... there has been a democratic vote which has a result. There are no sides, we will all win or loose together, unfortunately all the signs at the moment point at the later - I hope some positives start to emerge of the next week, but I fear we are now heading into 2-10 years of heavy recession.

Greg

phelpsa - 26/6/16 at 07:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler

quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,

The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.

It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!

I wouldn't know, my vote was wrong!

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 07:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!

The trick, as Phelpsa pointed out, is to only open your mouth when you're sure you know what you're talking about.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...

britishtrident - 26/6/16 at 07:35 PM

You can't make this stuff up, the petition for a second reforendum was started by campaiger on the Brexit side who assumed is lot would lose.

Now a 3.5 million and counting ROTF

balidey - 26/6/16 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
No one I know voted out, is regretting it, in fact the opposite

Really?

Well, perhaps they're just not admitting it yet?

There was a definite mood of 'Oh, f***, what have we done?!' in rural Lincolnshire.

Though given that I was among an agricultural economy that relies almost totally on eastern European transient labour, that's possibly not surprising. More surprising that they voted so overwhelmingly 'out' in the first place, when to leave would be so obviously cutting their own throats. Boston (Lincs) will be a ghost town, and the crops will be rotting in the fields and glasshouses if all the Poles go home... so you can expect a big hike in food prices, too, if they have to pay enough to attract lazy English people to do the job on UK produce and a 4% import tarriff on EU produce.

You and I must live in a very different rural Lincolnshire. A massive percentage of this area voted to leave.
I know several local farmers in South Lincs and the impression seems to be that leave was what they wanted. I'm sure the phrase 'cutting their own throats' was never mentioned. Although a high suicide rate in rural farmers is accurate, I don't think any of them would do the 'long game' with a 5 year protracted financial suicide when a shot gun usually works. Some would say often forced on them by EU quotas and regulations.

And I also know several people who work or have worked in the local food processing companies and haulage firms in this area. Transient European labour is a myth these days. About 15 to 20 years ago there was a marked change from transient migration in the Fenland regions to a permanent settlement of mainly Eastern Europeans. This is not rhetoric or hear say, its fact. The population in rural Lincolnshire and into Cambridgeshire has shifted and the work force that used to be a core of UK labourers with migrant workers to fill the numbers no longer exists. Now that may sound like a long winded way of saying 'bloody foreigners coming over 'ere and taking our jobs' but that is actually what is happening. People I know have been and are being forced out of work by EU migrants in massive numbers. Not small numbers of transient labour like it used to.

But just to add some balance, where I work (in engineering, not farming) we have a large number, about 75% of migrant workers. This has shifted from about the 10 to 15% it used to be. We get our staff from labour agencies. The migrant workers come from many different countries, some outside of the EU, but the large majority are Eastern Europeans. I often hear third hand anecdotes about how hard working they are and that they are only doing the jobs because the 'Lazy English' don't want the jobs. I can say for certain that in my company, over the past 20+ years with circa 200 employees, that statement is total horse shit. The people that wanted to work overtime were the English. The Poles, Lithuanians, etc work. But not harder or longer than anyone else. They do like to work to the clock. End of day, down tools. No more. Why bother, we have worked enough. We have also seen lots of fighting and arguing at work amongst migrant workers, mainly because some groups from certain countries refuse to work along other workers from different countries. The migrant workers have been some of the most racist and hateful people I have seen.
Again, the flip side to that is, some are amongst the nicest people I have met.

That is just my personal experience in rural Lincolnshire and may show why there is a massive leaning towards the Leave vote in this part of the country.

Finally, the engineering work I do is greatly influenced by EU regs. That is the main reason I voted to leave and I think its a brilliant opportunity for our engineering and manufacturing businesses to build on this and start making what we want, how we want and selling it abroad and making money. Enough of this doom and gloom nutsack that I am hearing.

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 08:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by balidey
You and I must live in a very different rural Lincolnshire. A massive percentage of this area voted to leave.

I don't live there, I was visiting.

And yes, I'm aware that a massive percentage voted to leave - that was my point.

Also, I agree and am aware of the shift toward permanent residence amongst the Eastern European population - though that's mainly because they've proved so cheap and useful that they've found it possible to stay in employment in unskilled jobs all year round.

But having spent Friday and Saturday talking - for reasons I won't bore you with - to lots of Lincolnshire people who almost without exception said that they had voted out, the very clear impression I got was that the news reports of early developments following announcement of the results had left them severely shaken and doubting their previous judgement.

Even at the celebration parties (of which I attended a couple) the tone was: 'well, we've 'won', so we'd better celebrate the victory, no matter how Pyrrhic. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.'

gregs - 26/6/16 at 08:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by balidey

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by steve m

Finally, the engineering work I do is greatly influenced by EU regs. That is the main reason I voted to leave and I think its a brilliant opportunity for our engineering and manufacturing businesses to build on this and start making what we want, how we want and selling it abroad and making money.

As long as you only want to sell in the UK that will be fine... but in perspective its a pretty small market - if you want to sell to anybody in Europe you'll still be working to the same req's but possibly with some import duties to make it sweeter.

[Edited on 26/6/16 by gregs]

mark chandler - 26/6/16 at 08:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!

The trick, as Phelpsa pointed out, is to only open your mouth when you're sure you know what you're talking about.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...

They also say there is a clown in every circus

Sam_68 - 26/6/16 at 08:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
They also say there is a clown in every circus

They're wrong: there's always more than one clown.

Only one ringmaster, though.

twybrow - 26/6/16 at 09:17 PM
What a mess this is. I cannot see a second referendum happening, but I can see the fallout from the last one costing our country big style. I suspect a lot of leave voters will regret their vote, but it is too late. I am sure this will now happen, but god only knows who will take the helm on our rudderless runaway sinking ship!

The next thing to go will be the Union. Scotland are itching to pull the trigger, and that would spell the fragmentation of UK. Sad times. No longer will we and our children be able to move and work freely in Europe. No more will we have the massive financial and resource thrown at science and R&D that the EU gives. No more a major player on a world stage. I truly hope some of the fairytales that Leave used come true. The first major two (immigration and NHS funding) have already been thrown out and it has only been a few days, and the leaders of the Leave campaign have all gone to ground (apart from the slimeball Farage). Good luck to anyone living in a deprived region - you have a Tory government ruling you, and you just cut off a major funding stream for regeneration (see Wales. Cornwall, north east etc for countless examples).

Try this petition instead

[Edited on 26/6/16 by twybrow]

britishtrident - 27/6/16 at 08:47 AM
The only thing 99 percent agree is Farage is a creep but over half the votes cast were on his side of the argument. The rest of them aren't much better, Fox resigned under a cloud, and so on.

The people on the remain side were all serious heavy weight politicians.

MikeRJ - 27/6/16 at 01:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Nobody on this thread - on either side - is suggesting that we should disregard the democratic result.

I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not wanting to disregard the democratic result?

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...

Indeed.

Sam_68 - 27/6/16 at 01:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not wanting to disregard the democratic result?

Clearly, we have very different perspectives, because I'd ask exactly the opposite question: how is seeking a second national referendum disregarding the democratic decision made by the first?

It is seeking the electorate's democratic authority to over-rule the earlier decision with the benefit of later experience (and a sharp lesson in common sense), but certainly not ignoring it.

In fact, the legal situation is that the referendum is entirely advisory, and MP's will now have to vote to leave the EU.

A failure to do that would be disregarding the democratic result.

Although it would entirely substantiate what I said earlier about our 'Parliamentary Democracy' being a euphemism for a much less democratic form of Government, I would be horrified - and very angry indeed, despite personally being anti-Brexit - if our elected MP's chose to over-rule a general referendum in such a way, but it's a perfectly legal possibility if Boris' frantic back-pedalling and attempts to negotiate a deal on free trade without free borders (which has never been achieved before) come to nought.

There is also the possibility of a veto by the Scottish Parliament. The legality of that seems more questionable, but to deny it would seem likely to lead to the dissolution of the union.

JoelP - 27/6/16 at 02:35 PM
There can be no Brexit without a general election first. There is a mandate to leave the EU, but no agreement on how to implement it. The desires of the leave camp are literally delusional. They want free trade, no payments, no EU rules, no free movement (but we can still retire to Spain, of course). Absolutely impossible. The parties need to set out in their manifestos how they would proceed, and then put it to the vote. There's every chance too that Labour or the Libs could seek a mandate to ignore the Brexit vote.

Jeano - 27/6/16 at 02:43 PM
As a person that voted Remain.

I think the idea of a second referendum is undiplomatic and should not be considered unless in itself it got more that 50% of the population on the UK.

The damage is done now. The unknown is the biggest fear, they need to concentrate on the exit plan now.

Sam_68 - 27/6/16 at 03:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
There can be no Brexit without a general election first. There is a mandate to leave the EU, but no agreement on how to implement it.

Legally, there can. And there doesn't need to be an agreement on how to implement it:

There is nothing stopping the current Government making the Article 50 notification right now, and 2 years after that is lodged (unless all other EU members agree to an extension of negotiations) we're out on our arses, with or without any negotiated agreement on implementation: we simply cease to be a member, and all treaties cease to apply. There are doubtless factions in the EU who would love to see that happen, as it would be the best possible deterrent to further fragmentation of the Union.

If it happened, it would make the current chaos look mild in comparison: we'd have approximately the same status and credibility in terms of world trade as North Korea.

This is the reason that Boris is backpedaling so fast that his feet are a blur, and trying to convince everybody that there is 'no rush' to lodge the Article 50.

Unfortunately Germany seems to be ruling out any informal negotiations prior to the Article 50 notification, so Boris' bluff may just have been called...

minibull - 27/6/16 at 04:11 PM
If those older voters are ignorant uneducated little Englanders then the EU obviously isn't worth being in, as these are the same people who voted in in 1975 (including me). As to the leave campaign being unprepared of course they are. There was no provision (allocated civil servants, budget, etc) to work on prior to the leave vote. So in order to work out the best of the alternate policies will require time, as will appointing negotiating teams. We are told young people voted in, but in areas such as East Lancs the young are mostly anti EU as it hasn't given them any hope of prosperity. Of my own children two have degrees, well paid jobs and have relocated to large urban areas, they voted in. My third child who is in no way less intelligent has a daughter lives locally, voted out. Life experience dictated how people voted and membership of the EU has not shared any improvements to that evenly throughout the country. Leaving is a chance to improve this country, but not a guarantee that is up to our governments and what they do with the opportunity. At least it will be slightly easier to hold them accountable. One last point it is also being pointed out that the older Brexiters are selfish, thinking only of themselves. These are the people who believe that they have a duty and responsibility to look after their parents in old age, unlike the caring youngsters who seem to believe that they should sub contract their elders care to which ever migrants come cheapest, because their own lives are to important. Brexit won, the sun still came up, life goes on.

CRAIGR - 27/6/16 at 04:21 PM
I openly admit that I "sat on the fence" so to speak and didn't vote mainly because I felt I personally did not know enough about the subject and the consequences of voting one way or another.
After watching many of the debates that all tended to end in personal point scoring from both sides I felt no wiser.
I still feel the same in the absence of cold hard facts as to what will or will not happen. Does anybody really know in the mid to long term.
If we were to reapply in the future why would we not be taken back albeit on the member states terms ?
If others leave what happens then ?

If our political system worked for the good of the country instead of against each other in an attempt to feather their own nests and actually told the truth assumedly we would all be in a better place.
Have to say there's a lot of passion for this cold, grey rain soaked piece of rock.

Neville Jones - 27/6/16 at 04:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP

The desires of the leave camp are literally delusional. They want free trade, no payments, no EU rules,

The older people who voted OUT, are the ones who were sold the IN 40 years ago, based on those items above.

They didn't vote to join back in the seventies, and get all the EEC/EC/EU garbage that has gradually been forced on the nation.

It started as the EEC, then somehow became the EC, then EU. I didn't see any referendums about those changes?

Read the Treaty of Rome. Our VAT has still to go up to the 22.5% that was agreed in that treaty.

In a few years time, when all the hysterics and doom sayers have died down, noone will even think twice that UK was once in such a deceitful insidious club.

How many have noticed people refer to the 'Supreme Court' on news interviews? I didn't know one existed. I thought the Law Lords were the top, until it was pointed out to me that the EUROPEAN Supreme Court has ultimate say.

So, who was controlling the UK when we were IN?

All this claptrap about another referendum just because some people didn't like the result. But, we don't hear people demanding another election when they get MP's they don't like!

Join the real world people, it's done! Get on with life and make the best of it.

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 27/6/16 by Neville Jones]

Sam_68 - 27/6/16 at 05:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CRAIGR
If we were to reapply in the future why would we not be taken back albeit on the member states terms ?

Short answer: because according to the Maastricht Treaty, our new membership would have to be approved by ALL other members before it could go forward.

Naturally, they're going to be reluctant to let us back in and put every possible hurdle in our way because of the way we've behaved previously.

Not saying it's impossible, but in practice I think we have to accept that as soon as we start the formal process, that's it, permanently.

MikeRJ - 27/6/16 at 05:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not wanting to disregard the democratic result?

Clearly, we have very different perspectives, because I'd ask exactly the opposite question: how is seeking a second national referendum disregarding the democratic decision made by the first?

Because it makes a complete mockery of the democratic process. Voters have now been exposed to three days of almost exclusively negative media coverage, promoting doom and gloom. How would a second vote be even remotely democratic? If a second vote didn't give the result you want, would you be asking for a third and a fourth?

[Edited on 27/6/16 by MikeRJ]

Sam_68 - 27/6/16 at 06:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Because it makes a complete mockery of the democratic process.

More of a mockery that our esteemed political masters make of it, with their lies, bickering and self-promotion, would you say?

I'm not sure that's possible...

But point taken: I wouldn't support the idea of a second referendum myself, though there is perhaps some justification on the grounds that it has become clear that a large percentage of the electorate had not anticipated some of the very serious issues that have emerged along with the result.

02GF74 - 29/6/16 at 07:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day

Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of �billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.

It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.

.

Well the ftse is almost back to where it was on thursday so we are not totally f**ked.... or maybe just too early to say.....

[Edited on 29/6/16 by 02GF74]

mark chandler - 29/6/16 at 08:18 PM
We are doomed, well perhaps not then

JoelP - 29/6/16 at 08:21 PM
^ That's the effect of the BoE freeing up 250bn, and a recovery because article 50 doesn't appear imminent. This volatile uncertainty will continue for the foreseeable future, everytime something changes.

The real damage is done when foreign investors stop investing. Eg, Nissan isn't going to invest of we're not in the single market.

JoelP - 29/6/16 at 08:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
"If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated."

Jez, what a narrow minded view, thanks for that! Average intelligence is the same whatever age you are once grown up, older tend to have more common sense, it's called life experience!

Let's flip your comment on its head, "the election was lost by the young and the clever" does not make much sense either does it?

I have to question this. I'll find you a graph that clearly shows the correlation between age, education etc and how one voted. The notion that everyone is equally intelligent is ridiculous. Now as we all know, correlation does not equal causation. But, that's not what I said. I said, uneducated people overwhelmingly voted out. Is that because the eu has abused the uneducated, or because they just don't know what they're on about? The latter seems more likely to me.

Graph to follow...

JoelP - 29/6/16 at 08:34 PM

Sam_68 - 29/6/16 at 09:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Well the ftse is almost back to where it was on thursday so we are not totally f**ked.... or maybe just too early to say.....

The FTSE 100 is biased toward multi-nationals (albeit those who trade on the London stock exchange).

The FTSE 250, which contains more UK focussed companies is still down 7% on pre-referendum position, and the � is still down by 9% on the US$, and showing no significant signs of recovery, yet.

I suspect that the big watershed will be whether we go into recession at the end of the current quarter. If we do, confidence in the UK economy will go into freefall. If we don't, we might get away with only a moderate amount of pain in the short term.

As it stands - since oil is valued in US$ - expect the price of a tank of petrol to rise in proportion to the fall of the � any time soon, and inflation to start to follow it soon after.

jeffw - 29/6/16 at 09:06 PM
Recession

a period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced, generally identified by a fall in GDP in two successive quarters.

You can't be in recession in one quarter.

JoelP - 29/6/16 at 09:09 PM
That's a technical definition Jeff, you know as well as I do that a contraction is coming. It might not even filter through this quarter, but it's coming.

Sam_68 - 29/6/16 at 09:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
generally

mark chandler - 29/6/16 at 09:21 PM
Dear Joel.

Are you really suggesting that the youth of today are on average more intelligent than the youth of ten, twenty, thirty or forty years ago?

You are confusing education with intelligence.

With the government in flux and that delusioned man who still believes he leads the Labour Party out front we will remain in a dip, once the elections are over and a solid government with an effective opposition emerges things will stabilise and pick up.

[Edited on 29/6/16 by mark chandler]

RK - 29/6/16 at 09:53 PM
Well, in other news, my Formula Renault parts prices just went down. I do not live in the UK or Europe. Might be a good time to invest in the UK... What goes down, has to come up.

And we will welcome anybody who has a bit of education and Engish (a bit of French helps too), so if anybody is thinking of abandoning England, give our people a call in Canada. We are full of people like you and need more immigrants.

jeffw - 30/6/16 at 05:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
That's a technical definition Jeff, you know as well as I do that a contraction is coming. It might not even filter through this quarter, but it's coming.

Also there is a technical definition of winning a referendum, getting more votes. Thankfully this is done via the, secret, ballot box and not by the Polls, Media, or Facebook.

jmad - 30/6/16 at 07:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
As it stands - since oil is valued in US$ - expect the price of a tank of petrol to rise in proportion to the fall of the � any time soon, and inflation to start to follow it soon after.

I'm not sure that the price will rise in "proportion" as a large portion of what we pay at the pump is � costs ie tax and UK costs so although the price of the barrel will rise due to the exchange rate the % increase is only applicable on specific amount on what we pay.

SJ - 30/6/16 at 07:40 AM
What amazes me in all this is that lots of people are suggesting that some people's votes are more important than others, many of whom spend half their time campaigning for equality.

And as for the suggestion that we should rerun the referendum because some fibs have been told, well, that's just ridiculous. We might as well say we are going to ban politicians from speaking.

Democracy is like life - it might not always be great but unless you are suicidal it is better than the alternative.

We just need to get on with things now and prove that this was the right thing to do as we'll never know if it was the wrong thing to do, unless of course someone can find the parallel universe where we voted to remain.

Sam_68 - 30/6/16 at 08:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SJ...we'll never know if it was the wrong thing to do

Except that we have the proof that it worked perfectly well for our economy before we f***** it up, and everybody with an ounce of business sense was saying all along that what has happened, would happen.

You can't pretend that the economic fall-out not predicted.

SJ - 30/6/16 at 08:36 AM
quote:

quote: Originally posted by SJ...we'll never know if it was the wrong thing to do Except that we have the proof that it worked perfectly well for our economy before we f***** it up, and everybody with an ounce of business sense was saying all along that what has happened, would happen. You can't pretend that the economic fall-out not predicted.

Yes there is a short term shock as markets don't like change, but my point is in the medium to long term it is impossible to say which was best.

Whether it worked perfectly well before is a matter for debate. Debt clock

Stu

Mr Whippy - 30/6/16 at 11:52 AM

[Edited on 29/6/16 by 02GF74]

This is just like the misleadingly scaled crisis graphs I like to scare the crap out of people with

'oh it's quite smooth, No! look let me zoom in and it's all very scary now!'