YES thats right... me asking for help yet again!

so....

I SORNd the car in november and have been replacing the dash

tried to take it round for MOT last week (its first one!) and didnt make it out of our road

seems to be running really badly, feels like it is on 3 cylinders but is MUCH worse when actually moving, on the drive it seems ok - ish.

have checked the following:

compression: 9,9.5,9.7,10 (not hugely out but not perfect)
plug lead resistances 14kO, 6kO, 6kO, 4kO (lead 1 seems a bit high but well within the 30kO i have seen quoted...)
resistance on all 4 injectors is 14 Ohms
fuel pressure is steady 3.5 bar
cranking fine
checked MS and tried loading an old 'known good' config
checked and cleaned plugs, all sooty black due to rich running but none wet
all 4 headers are nice and hot but dont have a decent temp tester to check exactly how hot each one is
fresh fuel in
checked crank sensor and looks fine, MS shows a good signal
tried unplugging each injector in trun whilst idling, heard a cinsistent dip in engine note/speed for each one..

thing is i think it is much worse when driving, on the drive it seems ok ish but as soon as you try to drive it becomes awful!


so any suggestions of other things to check/try welcome!

cheers

Dave

The high impedance on lead 1 could be because of its longer length.

Have you put new fuel in it?
Checked the fuel pressure?
Had the injectors cleaned?

I had a set of injectors that i had cleaned professionally, and one was 40% down on power. I would never have found that until last.

Are you running resistor plugs? I've recently had them (champion plugs) cause me all sorts of issues in a tin top, one 3Kohm (about normal), two at 6kohm and one at 20kohm - it started misfiring only under load and ended up misfiring almost always except idle and cruise. They were almost new too.

[Edited on 7/5/11 by coyoteboy]

Whats the ignition, distributor or megajolt?

If distributor, have you checked the points if fitted, or if electronic have you checked the distributor cap and rotor, I have know the resistor in the rotor arm fail, also it could be burnt/corroded contacts in the distributor cap or the carbon brush in the cap has failed/gone missing/spring failed. It could also be damp in the cap.

It could also be a faulty earth some where near the engine.


It could also be that the fuel has 'gone off'

[Edited on 7/5/11 by jollygreengiant]

quote:

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It could also be that the fuel has 'gone off'

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quote:

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Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:

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It could also be that the fuel has 'gone off'

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This seems to be a common suggestion but from two angles I'm fairly sure fuel doesnt "go off" to that extent. One is a boat we have that wasn't used for 5 years, we ran the remaining fuel on its next outing and it was fine (carb'd BMW straight 6) and the other is my GT4 which has sat on the drive, in a shed or in a field for the last 3.5 years and still runs as sweet as a nut on the same tank as when it was SORN'd.

Fuel does lose its octane rating, but I don't think it's as bad as it used to be when you'd get varnishing and all sorts from the manky contents. Just my experience though.

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OK.....

I have totally refilled with fresh fuel

replaced the plugs - old ones where apr6fs resistive and looked fine but i replaced with ap7fs non resistive as that was the spec for 'fast road' as per burtons......

new 8mm silicone Bosch leads

used carb cleaner and a home made test rig to clean the injectors and ensure that they are flowing ok

used those spark plug test light jobbies to prove i am getting a regular spark to all cylinders

checked compression

checked fuel rail pressure is steady at about 3.7 bar (a smidge high??)



still running like cr*p

any more ideas?

I see no mention of valve clearances, have you checked them?

quote:

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Originally posted by DaveFJ
OK.....

I have totally refilled with fresh fuel

replaced the plugs - old ones where apr6fs resistive and looked fine but i replaced with ap7fs non resistive as that was the spec for 'fast road' as per burtons......

new 8mm silicone Bosch leads

used carb cleaner and a home made test rig to clean the injectors and ensure that they are flowing ok

used those spark plug test light jobbies to prove i am getting a regular spark to all cylinders

checked compression

checked fuel rail pressure is steady at about 3.7 bar (a smidge high??)



still running like cr*p

any more ideas?

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Can you post some MS datalogging and tooth logging data?

OK...

i'm runing MSnS extra on 29y code
i have the MSns driving a Mondeo 2.0 coil pack (the early sort with the clips on the ignition leads)
Wideband o2 sensor from innovate (lc1)
trigger wheel from an online site 36:1? triggerwheels.com???
pickup from the same site and mounted fairly well.

engine has been running ok (not perfect but well enough) for about 3 years

TBs are GSXR750/1000 with the standard injectors

using TPS from the throttle bodies and have checked in MS that the TPS reading is coming through properly. MAP is connected but not used.....

have just tried backing the fuel pressure down to 3bar and it seems to have made a little difference, still running like a bucket of bolts though.

I have a short log file, problem is the car is SORN at the monment so the most i can risk is once round the block....

car probably wasnt up to full temperature when log was taken, note the coolant sender needs recalibrating as it reads about 20 degrees high in MS....

will post the log file as soon as i can work out how!

how do i get 'tooth logging' data?

[Edited on 22-5-11 by DaveFJ]


ok look HERE for files.....

[Edited on 22-5-11 by DaveFJ]

How do you have the LC1 configured? The only thing "obvious" to me is you look to be running really rich but I can't tell exactly how rich without knowing your LC1 output setting.

LC1 is IIRC setup in the 'standard' way .. ie 0v - 5v

I have been thinking that it does seem rich and the new plugs were wet after the first run (only a couple of minutes run time)
The fuel map I am using is now very different from the one i started with 4 years ago and has just been tweaked through the use of the megalog viewer and its autotuning tweaks. over time it got better and better.
So a bit baffled why it would suddenly start playing up now... the fuel pressure did seem a touch high (3.8 bar approx) so i backed it off to 3bar and that seemed to make for a more stable idle but I now have it 'popping' back through the throttle bodies which was a problem early on when i first set her up....

the weird thing with the current issues is that it will idle ok but when i try to put some load on it by driving up the road it starts to really playup... sounds like it is only running on 3 or possibly even 2 cylinders! and then dies.

having pretty much replaced the ignition side of things and successfully cleaned the injectors I am now thinking about repolacing the coil pack... not a huge expense but the missus is beggining to question the fact that i keep throwing money at this problem and havent fixed it yet.... if i throw £50 away on a new coil and it makes no difference she wont be happy!

In MLV the logs show you're idling at ~ 12:1 and at higher revs you're at 16.5:1? Massively rich at idle (might be needed for your engine but mine struggles <13:1) and at revs and light load you're up in a range that mine misfires like mad even unloaded? We have different engines but I can't see yours being that tolerant?

Are you saying i need to lean off the idle ?? but higher up is ok?

one of the things i struggled with (and had a hard time getting advice on) was the target AFR table... I pretty much worked on a finger in the air type solution.... will try and grab my target table to post and also my current fuel table...


here you go......








[Edited on 23-5-11 by DaveFJ]

I'm wondering if you've a variable air leak if you've tuned it as you really could do with leaning off at idle and richening up at higher revs/load. I'll happily post my AFR targets but it's for a turbocharged 4 pot so will not be overly instructive. Was it your thread I posted a generic one to a while ago? Are you relying heavily on wideband feedback...hang on, I'll check in your msq

You say you're not using MAP for tuning, did you try? What's your reasoning? Basing fueling off TP is a bit of a nightmare - 10% throttle under load is totally different fuel requirements to 10% unloaded, both of which you'd see in a day to day scenario.

[Edited on 23/5/11 by coyoteboy]

quote:

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Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'm wondering if you've a variable air leak if you've tuned it as you really could do with leaning off at idle and richening up at higher revs/load. I'll happily post my AFR targets but it's for a turbocharged 4 pot so will not be overly instructive. Was it your thread I posted a generic one to a while ago? Are you relying heavily on wideband feedback...hang on, I'll check in your msq

You say you're not using MAP for tuning, did you try? What's your reasoning? Basing fueling off TP is a bit of a nightmare - 10% throttle under load is totally different fuel requirements to 10% unloaded, both of which you'd see in a day to day scenario.

[Edited on 23/5/11 by coyoteboy]

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Cant get your MSQ to open in TS yet, something to do with your TP based tuning I suspect. Couple of things I've noted:

1) Your VE table values, on my PC at least, look reasonable (though very rich in the high load, low revs area, lean those out even if you rarely see them.
2) You timing looks OKish, accept that for now while we work on the main problems.
3) Your VE table is very low throughout - you're using only about 30% of the resolution you could use (i.e. max values are 255, ideally your VE table should cover 0-255, not 0-80. You need to scale your req_fuel and table to suit - on my engine I'd struggle to tune it to a stable AFR with so few values.

I'm not a fan of Alpha-N, it's such a compromise it's not worth it IMO.

Your map signals look pretty usable to me, would be nice with a small restrictor in to just smooth out some of the tiny lumps, but it's about the same as mine on the stock MAP sensor/restrictor. What are you classing as a large TB? I've a 60mm TB on a 2 litre engine and it's perfectly tuneable?

As I say, alpha-N is only really needed where MAP is massively variable (ITBs where you can't take a feed off all 4 ports, or single cyl engines) - the rest of the time a pneumatic solution and speed-density is preferable IMO, for the simple reason that alpha-N assumes your engine only sees one set of load conditions at any given throttle and RPM - this clearly isn't the case. I personally would switch to SD, but I know how much time and effort will have gone into getting it to the stage it's at now so you may wish to continue down this line.

Secondly, when you're in positive pressure, how does your target AFR map know? I mean how does your throttle position relate to boost? I can get 15psi at 3000rpm, 10% throttle or 15psi at 3000rpm 100% throttle, I'd be happy with 13:1 at 10% throttle, but at 100% throttle I'd be seriously worries about the engine health.


Re variable air leak - I'm thinking on the intake side - with alpha-n you're saying "at this throttle I'll have this air, so give me this much fuel" - to have a change in tuning you must have had a change in airflow (if it worked fine once before). That said, with a tuned exhaust system, a leak could effect scavenging and so cylinder fill, so you could be looking at changing the tuning that way yes.


[Edited on 23/5/11 by coyoteboy]

Are you turbocharged? I'm seeing 165 in the MAP field, but your posts indicate only ITBs on a pinto? Back in a bit, just off to work on a CBR600RR that's squirted too and causing me headaches also!

[Edited on 23/5/11 by coyoteboy]

nope no turbo here... considering a supercharger install though

having a looksy at mt tables now to see what can be attempted.

a bit wary of jumping ship and letting map do the work... will have to investigate whats involved

cheers for all your input so far!

This sounds EXTREMELY similar to my initial ms problems. Can you change/try a new crank sensor for starters? then are the ITBS all balanced. Mines would idle all day in the garage but as soon as you touched the accel it'd fart and po and bang big time.
As for your afrs
My c20xe WILL NOT idle above 14afr and it never likes to be more than 14.5 at any time in the table. I;d have thought that 16.5 was WAY to lean and would cause spitting back through the bodies.

ETA in megalog viewer you can see spikes on the clt whenever you touch the accel so looks like interference somewhere.

[Edited on 23/5/11 by omega 24 v6]

quote:

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Originally posted by omega 24 v6
This sounds EXTREMELY similar to my initial ms problems. Can you change/try a new crank sensor for starters? then are the ITBS all balanced. Mines would idle all day in the garage but as soon as you touched the accel it'd fart and po and bang big time.
As for your afrs
My c20xe WILL NOT idle above 14afr and it never likes to be more than 14.5 at any time in the table. I;d have thought that 16.5 was WAY to lean and would cause spitting back through the bodies.

ETA in megalog viewer you can see spikes on the clt whenever you touch the accel so looks like interference somewhere.

[Edited on 23/5/11 by omega 24 v6]

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Have you ntried tuner studios tooth logger?? i think you need a registered ( paid version) though.

What type of crank sensor have you?? get one from a scrap car or borrow one perhaps to try.

Tooth/trigger logger is free and will indeed tell you if you have any missing teeth or problems but from the fairly consistent RPM I'd say that's fine and dandy unless I missed some? If that were a problem I'd expect RPM spikes and dips. Here's a couple from mine - my hall effect sensor is starting to get flakey as I'm over-currenting it....


spike2 by j.buckle, on Flickr


spike by j.buckle, on Flickr

I'd be looking for air leaks. I'll keep looking over the logs and seeing if I can see anything else but my primary concern would be the AFRs being WAYYYYY out for some reason. I'd also like to know how you ended up with positive manifold pressure (I'd expect a tad at times, but not 160kpa!) unless alpha-N adjusts the readings from it. If that's out for some reason, who knows what other readings are out of whack?

I just wish you were closer, I'd love to come down and have a prod about with my scope.

[Edited on 23/5/11 by coyoteboy]

wife wouldnt let me play last night - had to work on her laptop

hopefully i can try again this evening.....

Progress i think!

downloaded and ran tooth logger as suggested and its all over the shop! going to have to look at the setup again very closely and try to see why but its triggering all over the place at the moment... sometmise seeing a nice steady 35? teeth the going bananas and showing 4 or 5 between 'peaks'....

logs can be seen here although i cant work out the best way to review them.....

Here



[Edited on 24-5-11 by DaveFJ]

Dave,

I can't speak for MS, but for Megajolt there are a few issues with the trigger wheel and VR sensor:

VR sensor cable screening: Use twin screened cable, preferably auto grade (but that's not compulsory). Only earth 1 end of the screening, otherwise you get interference loops that remove the effectiveness of the screening (in fact they can make interference worse).

VR sensor gap: should be around 1mm.

VR mount rigidity: MJ users have noted a problem where the VR sensor resonates, usually around 4k rpm, when the sensor mount isn't rigid. When the sensor starts vibrating then it plays havoc with the signal sent to the controller! Making the mount more rigid almost always gets rid of this problem.

None of these may be your problem - but they're worth eliminating.

Cheers,
David

I'd be genuinely surprised if it was that considering the perfect RPM log curves spotted earlier? From your tooth logs, and I've only cast an eye over a few sections of the logs, you seem to have 35 teeth on every one and the missing tooth is clearly nearly 2x the normal tooth gaps? Seems to be fine unless you can point out a specific case in the logs? (I'm looking at the CSV). If you had synch errors you'd almost definitely see RPM glitches. The above comments about sensor wiring and mounting are of course correct.

[Edited on 24/5/11 by coyoteboy]

will try again tonight with the tooth logging... was a bit rushed last night
willalso inspect the pickup and bracket again - it strikes me that if the bracket has cracked that would explain a lot.....

Just a couple of thoughts having looked at the log from earlier.

1) Plugs without resistors are not very nice for ECU and can cause interference on signal (i.e. on your trigger wheel perhaps) http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqresistor.asp

2) Your MAT is recording -40degC, are you based in the North? This would normally cause some overfueling on my car.

Good luck with your problems.

Matt

damn didnt notice that one.. looks like i have lost the adjustments that were applied for my air and water temp sensors....
will have a looksy and see if i can put them back!

Of course, good spot Matt!

quote:

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Originally posted by matt_gsxr

1) Plugs without resistors are not very nice for ECU and can cause interference on signal (i.e. on your trigger wheel perhaps) http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqresistor.asp


Matt

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FWIW

MS2 upgrade is nice in so many ways (not just the spec sheet) but it tells you if the sync is lost in the log files "sync lost reason, and sync lost count". Really useful, and it would tell you if you had the triggering problems before you swapped the plugs, which is very useful when diagnosing problems.


Matt

Update



Did some checking over the long w/e and the air temp sensor seems to be working but the MS sees a constant -40

so...

that leaves the wiring or the MS itself... currently trying to disconnect stuff and gain access to trace the wires and test....

Also:
I made a new pick up bracket for the tooth wheel sensor. much sturdier now but the logs from tooth logger still look pretty crappy..... will try putting in some bypass wires for that as well and see if the signal gets better...

I worked out that my toothed wheel has a runout of about .5mm but it has always been like that and doesnt seem to have been an issue in the past....

I didn't think your trigger logs looked bad at all, I could only ever see 35 teeth per rotation and reasonably sensible looking tooth times?

Just measure the voltage at the MS input pin, that'll tell you if it's the ADC channel blown or the wiring.

spent yesterday evening re-calibrating my air and water temp senders... the inc files were miles off for some reason? think maybe it all got screwed when i changed laptops....

anyway, will upload new inc files when i am allowed garage time again and see what happens.... still trying to get at wires to test the circuit for the air temp sender as well.....

well.. things are looking up

stripped back te engine bay loom and found the earth wire for the air temp sensor was broken...

have repaired it and did a quick run

see results at here

note: i have not uploaded the calibration settings for coolant and air so the readings are off but..... looks better even so!


will upload another log file once i have got the sensor calibration done...

cheers for all your help guys.. looks like i am finally getting somewhere