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best throttle bodies
whitstella - 13/9/12 at 05:12 PM

hi

just wondering what would be the best throttle bodies to use on a 2l zetec?????

cheers steve

cliftyhanger - 13/9/12 at 05:29 PM

Difficult to better Jenvey's. Though there are some barrel and spindlesless ones about too

Fatgadget - 13/9/12 at 05:40 PM

A throttle body is just an orifice to let air into an engine surely!

cliftyhanger - 13/9/12 at 05:48 PM

Yep. Some are better than others though. Generally find the cars that the top racers are using, you can't go far wrong by following the winners.

monck - 13/9/12 at 06:17 PM

i have a set of gsxr 750 srad tbs ( less commonly used) ..

Dale at bailey performance was very impressed said they where better than the normal bike tb's he had and he said i most likely wouldn't notice any difference going jennevy ..

I used gsxr 750tbs a st manifold and injectors

And for the price difference that's good enough for me

[Edited on 13/9/12 by monck]

RK - 14/9/12 at 12:24 AM

I know the square root of you know what about it, but you can get 600 or 750 GXSR TB's for hardly anything, including injectors. Just in case you hadn't been looking. From the US, they are less than $100 often.

jeffw - 14/9/12 at 07:09 AM

Cheapest isn't. normally, the best. Roller throttle bodies must be pretty close to being the best followed by direct to head.

something like this http://atpowershop.co.uk/catalog/ford-zetec-throttle-bodies-assembly-direct-head-p-143.html

BaileyPerformance - 14/9/12 at 08:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Cheapest isn't. normally, the best. Roller throttle bodies must be pretty close to being the best followed by direct to head.

something like this http://atpowershop.co.uk/catalog/ford-zetec-throttle-bodies-assembly-direct-head-p-143.html


We mapped a 1800 zetec (Omex) that had been fitted with these, bit of a pain to balance at first and the TPS mounting seemed poor. Customer reported back that they kept going out of balance??
Stick to Jenvey, just buy the parallel set of the DCOE style versions (cheaper ones) as the tapered (individual) versions are better but much more expensive.
The tempered version only makes a difference on a full race highly developed engine so in most cases is not worth the extra money.

Cheers Dale.

jeffw - 14/9/12 at 08:47 AM

The DCOE spacing is almost perfect for the Zetec so there is little gain to be had with the others.

mtechmatt - 14/9/12 at 09:24 AM

We usually use Jenvey, but have started using AT Power with some of our engine packages.

A full engine managemnt system and Jenvey TB setup from us is £1350+VAT. With basemaps. Expect 170bhp on a 2.0 Blacktop

Matt

emwmarine - 14/9/12 at 02:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RK
I know the square root of you know what about it, but you can get 600 or 750 GXSR TB's for hardly anything, including injectors. Just in case you hadn't been looking. From the US, they are less than $100 often.


Great tip!!!!!!!

ebay in the US is so much cheaper for bike throttle bodies than ebay UK. Just bought a set of zx6r throttle bodies from a 5000 mile bike for peanuts compared to here!!!! Many thanks.

monck - 14/9/12 at 06:34 PM

Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..

BaileyPerformance - 14/9/12 at 06:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.

emwmarine - 14/9/12 at 07:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.


oops. The zx6r has 38mm according to google. Although google also suggests that people have been using them for zetec blacktops successfully.

monck - 14/9/12 at 07:55 PM

Sorry i was talking about Gsxr ones ..

Well not sure on that but mine are 44mm if i remember

BaileyPerformance - 14/9/12 at 08:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by emwmarine
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.


oops. The zx6r has 38mm according to google. Although google also suggests that people have been using them for zetec blacktops successfully.


I'm sure smaller throttle bodies would work, but power will be down. It always been known 2.0L ford engine requires 45mm, a good well tuned Pinto will make use of 48's, a cosworth YB NA will benefit from 50's if the engine is built for high RPM.

I think bike throttle bodies are not the way to go, pukka Jenveys are not that expensive when you consider the messing about involved making a (poor) manifold for use with bike bodies.

monck - 14/9/12 at 08:24 PM

Seems Dale has cleared it up ...

Although i was happy with the result i got and unless they give me any grief ill stick with them ..

mtechmatt - 15/9/12 at 09:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.


Dale,

Cant really agree with this, I have had 167bhp on 38s...

That was on CV type bike carbs (not injection)...

The ports are smaller than 45mm...

Just my opinion

Matt

cliftyhanger - 15/9/12 at 10:10 AM

Don't carbs work very differently to TB's?
I thought carb size was way more important on carbs, too large being very detrimental. But tb's can tune it out (largely)

mtechmatt - 15/9/12 at 10:24 AM

They do,m well CV ones do anyway, but the bore size ultimately determines air flow maxima, and thefore power. Overlly large TBs are no benfit. Indeed we always fit 45mm Jenveys to most 2.0Ls anyway, just an insteresting side note from me that power wise, down to 38s I have seen no overall loss...

Matt

will121 - 15/9/12 at 01:06 PM

I did have gsxr 600 throttle bodies with standard zetec ecu and ran fine at 150 bhp now have gsxr750 ones fitted with a home made manifold total cost me £100. Now Running with emerald ecu when mapped dave walker did say didn't really like bike bodies but he mapped it all fine and easy with no issues at all, I will admit proper bodies will no doubt be better and possibly more power with better air flow but cost 6 times as much or the the price of a set of performance cams!

jeffw - 15/9/12 at 02:05 PM

There will be very little difference on WOT between any of the types of throttle body (Bike/Jenvey/ATPower etc) the difference comes on part throttle, especially just off idle.

loggyboy - 15/9/12 at 02:25 PM

The Weber Alpha kits look good, despite the lack of personal customisation (needs to be dealer tuned for anything other than a standard lump).
I picked mine up cheap and yet to run them due to lack of overal build progress, but the pack is very comprehensive and apart from a fuel pump, I shouldnt need to buy anything else at all.
Its premapped for a standard lump, so apart from being balanced up which anyone can do pretty much it should see 170hp out the box

BaileyPerformance - 16/9/12 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.


Dale,

Cant really agree with this, I have had 167bhp on 38s...

That was on CV type bike carbs (not injection)...

The ports are smaller than 45mm...

Just my opinion

Matt


Hi Matt,

The zetec inlet ports are not massive, but overall size is close to the flow rate of a 45mm throttle (oval shaped port, about 22mm each valve inlet)

On jenvey 45s you should see no less than 170BHP (we have seen 177BHP) on an otherwise stock blacktop, 190BHP with cams. A decent exhaust manifold and system makes a big difference too.

It would be interesting to do a back to back with 40's verses 45's, but as there is no disadvantage to using 45's on a 2.0L there seems little point in using 40's. On a 1.6 or 1.8 40's mite be better due to better throttle response (air speed would drop with 45's i suspect)

We have seen recently a slight drop in power when we converted a redtop from weber 45's to megasquirt and direct to head jenvey's. Better throttle response with the jenvey's but we lost 5BHP top end. We put this down to the position of the injectors - we know from previous dyno testing most engines respond better if the injectors are further down the inlet tract, and often mounted under the throttle bodies (upside down) also helps power. With the carbs the fuel in introduced to the air stream roughly in the center of the carb body, unlike the jenveys we used that had the injectors in "factory" locations very close to the engine.

Dale.

jeffw - 16/9/12 at 05:45 PM

Interesting stuff. Was that 5BHP loss across the board or just at peak?

emwmarine - 16/9/12 at 06:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by will121
I did have gsxr 600 throttle bodies with standard zetec ecu and ran fine at 150 bhp now have gsxr750 ones fitted with a home made manifold total cost me £100. Now Running with emerald ecu when mapped dave walker did say didn't really like bike bodies but he mapped it all fine and easy with no issues at all, I will admit proper bodies will no doubt be better and possibly more power with better air flow but cost 6 times as much or the the price of a set of performance cams!


Do you get more power with the 750s over the 600s?

will121 - 16/9/12 at 06:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by emwmarine
quote:
Originally posted by will121
I did have gsxr 600 throttle bodies with standard zetec ecu and ran fine at 150 bhp now have gsxr750 ones fitted with a home made manifold total cost me £100. Now Running with emerald ecu when mapped dave walker did say didn't really like bike bodies but he mapped it all fine and easy with no issues at all, I will admit proper bodies will no doubt be better and possibly more power with better air flow but cost 6 times as much or the the price of a set of performance cams!


Do you get more power with the 750s over the 600s?


i have no direct comparison as the smaller 600's were running with standard ford ecu, when i fitted the larger 750's also fitted cams and emerald ecu which together gave extra 23bhp (measured on two different RR's so no basis for comparison), basically would expect 750's to ultimately provide more power but think many others have had good results with 600's fitted, think also depends on what other tuning you propose.


beaver34 - 16/9/12 at 07:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
There will be very little difference on WOT between any of the types of throttle body (Bike/Jenvey/ATPower etc) the difference comes on part throttle, especially just off idle.


i agree 100%

ive run busa bodies and now run DTH jenveys

on WOT no difference, but ask the mapper what a ball ache bike bodies are to map, they need proper thorttle quadrant making for them that is suited to a pedal setup rather than a bike grip as its hard to apply a little throttle

and 2.0 neededing 45 i would like to see 45 vs 38 on the same motor, you may make peak power but will sacrifice it elsewhere in the rev range

BaileyPerformance - 16/9/12 at 07:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Interesting stuff. Was that 5BHP loss across the board or just at peak?


Just peak power, but i'm sure if we moved the injectors outboard we would have gained power over the carbs.

I tuner friend of mine built a full race 2.0L duratec for an autograss car, it made 280BHP at 9K on jenveys. He moved the injectors out (away from the engine) and mounted them on the underside of the throttle bodies, the same engine on the same dyno made 303BHP

We have also done some work with both 2004 and 2008 Hayabusa engines for use on the grass, the 2008 engine (stock) made 195BHP (around standard power) on jenveys with megasquirt but make 140lb/ft tq. (stock tq is around 110lb/ft)

This proves to me that the bike throttle bodies are designed with space restrictions in mind due to the limited space available on the bike. Jenveys win hands down on a car engine and on a bike engine. This is why i think bike throttle bodies should not be used on car engines as they are barely good enough for the bike they came off!!

mtechmatt - 17/9/12 at 08:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by monck
Thats what i did my tb's where about £70 from the US , shipping and other taxes on top of that but still good ..

On a 2.0 blacktop i would recommend 750cc or 1000cc tbs the 600 cc tb's are cheaper as theres less demand i found but ill leave that to you to decide ..


A 2.0L Zetec must have at least 45mm bore throttle bodies, not sure what size the bike ones are? as you say the 750cc or 1000cc will prob be 45mm.


Dale,

Cant really agree with this, I have had 167bhp on 38s...

That was on CV type bike carbs (not injection)...

The ports are smaller than 45mm...

Just my opinion

Matt


Hi Matt,

The zetec inlet ports are not massive, but overall size is close to the flow rate of a 45mm throttle (oval shaped port, about 22mm each valve inlet)

On jenvey 45s you should see no less than 170BHP (we have seen 177BHP) on an otherwise stock blacktop, 190BHP with cams. A decent exhaust manifold and system makes a big difference too.

It would be interesting to do a back to back with 40's verses 45's, but as there is no disadvantage to using 45's on a 2.0L there seems little point in using 40's. On a 1.6 or 1.8 40's mite be better due to better throttle response (air speed would drop with 45's i suspect)

We have seen recently a slight drop in power when we converted a redtop from weber 45's to megasquirt and direct to head jenvey's. Better throttle response with the jenvey's but we lost 5BHP top end. We put this down to the position of the injectors - we know from previous dyno testing most engines respond better if the injectors are further down the inlet tract, and often mounted under the throttle bodies (upside down) also helps power. With the carbs the fuel in introduced to the air stream roughly in the center of the carb body, unlike the jenveys we used that had the injectors in "factory" locations very close to the engine.

Dale.


Dale,

Can conform your theroies on injectorm[placement.

On a rallyx HondaS2000 powered corsa we built, we actually had 2 sets, one near the intake face, and another set futher back. Gives more time for atomisation/swirl at high air speeds/rpm, and anotible kick in the torque curve...

Definately the way to go if ECU/Budget/Fabrrication allows staged injection...

Matt