C20XE overheating problems.
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 02:22 PM
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
It runs up to temperature fairly normally but the polo radiators not getting hot enough to switch the fan on
The thermostat is opening as the top hose to the radiator gets very hot, the bottom hose gets hot eventually but for some reason it's not flowing
through the radiator properly.
There is flow out of the inlet manifold back to the expansion bottle. There is very little flow from the bleed at the top of the radiator back to the
bottle ?? Even tho its below the bottle and I've had the pipe off.
The temperature gauge is correct and the fan works when you short the cables.
It's had two new fan switches and a thermostat.
The engine was recently rebuilt but had this issue before. The pump was new when it was first rebuilt.
It also overheated on the rolling road with a big fan infront of it.
It's plumbed as per the sbd picture except the heater circuit is blocked off (was originally looped but still overheated)
I have an mot on Saturday and it won't get there if I can't sort this 
Pleas help someone!
Wheels244 - 28/4/13 at 02:31 PM
Is the pump definitely ok Ben ?
I got boxes of bits with the car I bought off Ned, if you need anything I can have look and see if I've got it.
Rob
[Edited on 28/4/13 by Wheels244]
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 03:21 PM
It was new fairly recently. It pumps out of the inlet manifold bleed well. I can't see what else it could be
rusty nuts - 28/4/13 at 03:25 PM
Have you tried a lower temperature fan switch, the body should be marked with the on and the off temperature, your local motor factors should be able
to help. Is the fan switch in the rad, it may be worth fitting it into the top hose using a connector from someone like CBS. As a quick fix to get you
out of trouble try a bottle of Red Line Water Wetter, it will drop the coolant temperature by up to 20 degrees, I think various other additive
manufacturers do a similar product Radiator Relief etc. If all else fails fit a manual override switch as a temporary fix or even just bridge the
wires
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 03:57 PM
I've shorted the wires together to run the fan, but its not cooling the engine down The pipes all get hot, and even the radiator was hot but
with the fan running the temperature still creeps up over 100oC
I'm wonder what would happen if i remove the thermostat to help water to flow, but could have a reverse effect.
Wheels244 - 28/4/13 at 04:02 PM
Is the expansion tank cap in good order ? Could it be losing pressure through the cap and allowing it to boil up ?
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 04:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wheels244
Is the expansion tank cap in good order ? Could it be losing pressure through the cap and allowing it to boil up ?
Yeah, the pressure builds up ok.
perksy - 28/4/13 at 04:44 PM
Excuse the daft question mate but is the cooling fan running the right way around ?
Has the system bled ok ?
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 04:54 PM
Yes, i checked the fan today and its sucking from the front and blowing through the rad.
I've bleed it as much as possible.. I even blew into the coolant bottle to pressurise it and bubbles came up, had it running with the cap off and
the radiator bleed pipe off. Not sure theres much more i can do
[Edited on 28/4/13 by Ben_Copeland]
omega 24 v6 - 28/4/13 at 05:29 PM
Has it ever been losing or using water Ben?? If no the try removing the central part of the stat only. Its a fairly cheap part to replace anyways. if
not that then only other thing would be a duff pump ( but you say its new ) or a water flow problem due to a bocked radiator or blocked waterways
perhaps.Has it alweays been like this with you or was it ok at one point? Anyone chucked an egg or sealant liquid into it at any point?
engine running lean or ign out causing pinking and then hot running.
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 05:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Has it ever been losing or using water Ben?? If no the try removing the central part of the stat only. Its a fairly cheap part to replace anyways. if
not that then only other thing would be a duff pump ( but you say its new ) or a water flow problem due to a bocked radiator or blocked waterways
perhaps.Has it alweays been like this with you or was it ok at one point? Anyone chucked an egg or sealant liquid into it at any point?
engine running lean or ign out causing pinking and then hot running.
No, never lost any water. The radiator is brand new. I've flushed the system out as much as possible. I've had the engine for years stored
away. Its definately not the bottom end as this is another bottom end doing the same thing.
I wish i'd changed the pump when i rebuilt it now, but it looked like new and its all metal so no plastic crap.
It was tuned on a rolling road, but it kept over heating while tuning, but they said it was pretty good tune and just need fine tuning when the
cooling was sorted.
I'm going to pull the stat out tomorrow and see if that does anything and get a water wetter.
Is the top hose supposed to get hot before the bottom rad hose???
omega 24 v6 - 28/4/13 at 05:44 PM
quote:
Is the top hose supposed to get hot before the bottom rad hose???
OH yes much hotter whilst running as well.
New bottom end you say?
Head gasket on the right way? Not sure if it poss to put it on the wrong way mind.
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 05:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
OH yes much hotter whilst running as well.
New bottom end you say?
Head gasket on the right way? Not sure if it poss to put it on the wrong way mind.
Ok thats good,
Head gasket is correct otherwise it wouldnt be getting oil.
Yeah, i swapped the bottom ends cos the first one died as the crank was naff.
britishtrident - 28/4/13 at 06:02 PM
Removing the thermostat is really bad for your engine.
Thermostat won't open unless you have a by-pass hose plumbed into the cooling system to allow coolant to circulate when the thermostat is
closed, on a tin top the by-pass is connected through the heater.
Basically a by-pass hose takes coolant from the cylinder head and circulates it back to the water pump inlet causing circulation that prevents hot
or cold spots forming and ensure hot coolant passes over the wax capsule of the thermostat. If you don't have a by-pass the coolant around
the cylinders can be boiling but the thermostat will remain closed because the coolant around the thermostat remains cool.
You can do a quick and dirty fix by removing the thermostat drilling a couple of holes in its' valve plate -- no more than 2 holes 2mm or
at most 2.5mm in diameter.
This will let the thermostat operate but isn't ideal because it dosen't provide proper by-pass flow.
With a proper by-pass hose the engine temperature will remain pretty constant.
[Edited on 28/4/13 by britishtrident]
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 06:08 PM
Its plumbed in as per this diagram
Description
Just without the heater circuit, the heater circuit was looped originally but it overheated. So i blocked them off, but it still overheats
[Edited on 28/4/13 by Ben_Copeland]
avagolen - 28/4/13 at 06:18 PM
Is the water pump rotating in the correct direction?
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 06:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by avagolen
Is the water pump rotating in the correct direction?
Must be its run by the cambelt? Unless it was made incorrectly.
avagolen - 28/4/13 at 06:35 PM
OK, I remember now.
I think you have got to confirm that the water is actually being pumped
around the cooling system and especially the radiator.
I saw a utube of a guy running a rebuilt 12 cylinder engine.
He had some clear tube in the cooling system so that he could confirm water flow.
Any way you could do something similar? If you could use a short length of tube
in the top hose, insert a piece of wool in the joint so that it can be seen and you
can then see the direction and strength of flow.
fleabay do some acrylic hose in short lengths and diameters.
Just an idea....
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 07:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by avagolen
OK, I remember now.
I think you have got to confirm that the water is actually being pumped
around the cooling system and especially the radiator.
I saw a utube of a guy running a rebuilt 12 cylinder engine.
He had some clear tube in the cooling system so that he could confirm water flow.
Any way you could do something similar? If you could use a short length of tube
in the top hose, insert a piece of wool in the joint so that it can be seen and you
can then see the direction and strength of flow.
fleabay do some acrylic hose in short lengths and diameters.
Just an idea....
Not in 32mm unfortunately
Think i'm going to have to take the thermostat out and check its working, thats the only bit thats checkable. Drill some holes in it and go from
there
stevepj - 28/4/13 at 07:54 PM
you say you have flow from the inlet to the header tank, is this the 8mm bleed pipe as per when in the vauxhall or the 25mm ish pipe from the manifold
that would connect to the three way pipe in the vauxhall?
Large pipe from inlet should go into the bottom hose, you'll then need to drop another pipe from the header tank down into the bottom hose
too.
Bleed pipe from rad and/or the stat housing goes to the header tank.
Hot top hose and hot bottom hose with a cool rad between would indicate that the heat you are seeing is conducting through the fluids rather than by
flow caused by the fluid circulating through the engine.
I ran a 20xe for four years with just the top hose from the stat housing to the rad top connector and the bottom rad pipe connected to the vauxhall
three way pipe off the back of the water pump without any issues at all including continental driving at 38 degrees.
Now running a Z20LET with top hose from stat housing to top of rad, bleed from stat housing running through the turbo to the bottom hose, flow from
inlet into the bottom hose which comes from back of water pump into the bottom of the rad. This set up runs at around 80 degrees, will rise to 90
when pushed hard and can drop to mid 70's cruising on the motorway.
Ben_Copeland - 28/4/13 at 08:19 PM
It's the 8mm pipe off the top of the inlet into the tank that has flow.
Large pipe from inlet to bottom hose, tank goes into bottom hose.
Bleed from rad goes to tank
The water pump and plastic 3 way pipe are as per cavalier.
The top pipe is hot first, then as the engine gets to 95 the bottom hose started the get hot and slowly warmed the rad up till it was hot to touch.
But running the fan doesn't cool the engine.
loggyboy - 28/4/13 at 09:13 PM
Do temps stay ok when driving?
Ben_Copeland - 29/4/13 at 04:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Do temps stay ok when driving?
I've not been able to drive it, it overheated on the rolling road so I'm guessing it'll do the same on the road if its not flowing
round the rad properly
yellowcab - 29/4/13 at 06:58 AM
Despite rolling roads having a massive fan pointing at the rad, the car is still sat stationary in a hot environment.
I still think driving around makes a difference than sitting on rollers when it comes to engine temps
britishtrident - 29/4/13 at 02:43 PM
Is the engine actually boiling ? These engines run hot the standard thermostat opening temperature for these engines is 92c that means once
warmed up normal running temperature is never going to be below 93c even with the fan running. Keep in mind modern tintops are designed to run hot
and the dashboards show the temperature at a constant "N" between 75c and 115c
Fitting a lower temperature fan switch won't lower the running temperature below the thermostat opening temperature.
An ebay search on C20XE thermostat should turn up a lower temperature thermostat but the by-pass hose should also be re-instated.
MikeRJ - 29/4/13 at 03:19 PM
Also do you have anywhere for hot air to escape e.g. vents in the sides or bonnet? Does it still overheat if you take the bonnet off?
Ben_Copeland - 29/4/13 at 03:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Also do you have anywhere for hot air to escape e.g. vents in the sides or bonnet? Does it still overheat if you take the bonnet off?
Yes and yes I have a lot of holes in the bonnet. But it still gets hot without bonnet.
I'll get a low temp thermostat too
Ben_Copeland - 29/4/13 at 03:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Is the engine actually boiling ? These engines run hot the standard thermostat opening temperature for these engines is 92c that means once
warmed up normal running temperature is never going to be below 93c even with the fan running. Keep in mind modern tintops are designed to run hot
and the dashboards show the temperature at a constant "N" between 75c and 115c
Fitting a lower temperature fan switch won't lower the running temperature below the thermostat opening temperature.
An ebay search on C20XE thermostat should turn up a lower temperature thermostat but the by-pass hose should also be re-instated.
I've not boiled it yet as I've never let it get that far. I've seen the gauge hit 105-110 with no fan coming on. Manually switching the
fan on doesn't cool the engine at all which is what's worrying me
Thank you everyone for their advice so far.
Wheels244 - 29/4/13 at 07:45 PM
Do you want me to have a look to see if i've got a pump in my boxes of bits Ben ?
Ben_Copeland - 29/4/13 at 08:44 PM
Yeah if you don't mind mate. Please.
I'm hoping its the thermostat, I couldn't test it tonight cos we have no water or has due to boiler install going on till 9.15pm!
Wheels244 - 29/4/13 at 09:19 PM
I'll have a look when I get home from work tomorrow - can soon pop it in the post if I find one.
laptoprob - 29/4/13 at 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
Pleas help someone!
Hi Ben,
where do i start....
Some friends on here know that i have had 4 different XE engines with varied power(which is now 260hp) and to be fair i've had trouble with
overheating on all of them!
Thats not pointing a finger at the engine either as an XE can run this much power through a std Cav or Calibra rad in a normal car.
I'm just about nearing the point wher i think i may have it but believe me its been a slog to find out what the cause was!
Dont bother with the stat as the one you have(as long as its not sticking) is more than sufficient but do drill it as air pockets or
"kettling" occurs behind here and this allows for air to escape as well as other benfits too.
The pipe at the back of the head thats for the heater should in my opinion and of many engine builders(excluding SBD as they say its fine!) should be
connected back to the pipe that flows back to the expansion tank. Ive seen this in many Caterhams(8-12 years old) where the original XE heater pipe is
still fitted without problems and lets face it Caterham dont do things by half usually.
My rad bleed goes back to tank too along with one from the thermo housing.
I followed the SBD layout too and its fine.
A couple of questions which is where im left to explore on mine presently is does your header tank sit much higher than the rad?
Also when you are upto temp does the rad feel hot in the centre on the fins?
Hope any of this info helps as i can fully understand your frustration on this matter.
U2U me if i can help any further with pics etc?
Rob.
Wheels244 - 29/4/13 at 09:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
Pleas help someone!
Hi Ben,
where do i start....
Some friends on here know that i have had 4 different XE engines with varied power(which is now 260hp) and to be fair i've had trouble with
overheating on all of them!
Thats not pointing a finger at the engine either as an XE can run this much power through a std Cav or Calibra rad in a normal car.
I'm just about nearing the point wher i think i may have it but believe me its been a slog to find out what the cause was!
Dont bother with the stat as the one you have(as long as its not sticking) is more than sufficient but do drill it as air pockets or
"kettling" occurs behind here and this allows for air to escape as well as other benfits too.
The pipe at the back of the head thats for the heater should in my opinion and of many engine builders(excluding SBD as they say its fine!) should be
connected back to the pipe that flows back to the expansion tank. Ive seen this in many Caterhams(8-12 years old) where the original XE heater pipe is
still fitted without problems and lets face it Caterham dont do things by half usually.
My rad bleed goes back to tank too along with one from the thermo housing.
I followed the SBD layout too and its fine.
A couple of questions which is where im left to explore on mine presently is does your header tank sit much higher than the rad?
Also when you are upto temp does the rad feel hot in the centre on the fins?
Hope any of this info helps as i can fully understand your frustration on this matter.
U2U me if i can help any further with pics etc?
Rob.
Bugger ! - All this has got me a bit worried about firing mine up now - was hoping to be a position to do that in a couple of weeks.
[Edited on 29/4/13 by Wheels244]
laptoprob - 29/4/13 at 10:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wheels244
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
Pleas help someone!
Rob.
Bugger ! - All this has got me a bit worried about firing mine up now - was hoping to be a position to do that in a couple of weeks.
[Edited on 29/4/13 by Wheels244]
Dont let it stop you matey. I know others that run these engines in highly tuned Westfields without probs. We all have different rads etc and
positioning on header tanks which some work great and others dont.
Like i said im on the last leg of a long jopurney with this topic and the only two things left are the header tank position(too low) and the rad not
working correctly(which cost a few quid so doubt it but you never know).
I will be changing both next month to see if it solves it and will let you know.
Incidently mine will not overheat now (after loads of mods)on a normal road run even with some hammer but will not stay cool on track at all which is
where i spend 75% of my time.
Ben_Copeland - 30/4/13 at 05:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
Pleas help someone!
Hi Ben,
where do i start....
A couple of questions which is where im left to explore on mine presently is does your header tank sit much higher than the rad?
Also when you are upto temp does the rad feel hot in the centre on the fins?
Hope any of this info helps as i can fully understand your frustration on this matter.
U2U me if i can help any further with pics etc?
Rob.
Yeah the bottles about an inch off the bonnet line and the rad does feel hot in the centre eventually.
I've ordered a low temp stat anyway, if it doesn't come by the weekend I'll drill mine and check its actually working!
It's very frustrating!
laptoprob - 30/4/13 at 06:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
I'm having real trouble with my engine cooling.
Pleas help someone!
Hi Ben,
where do i start....
A couple of questions which is where im left to explore on mine presently is does your header tank sit much higher than the rad?
Also when you are upto temp does the rad feel hot in the centre on the fins?
Hope any of this info helps as i can fully understand your frustration on this matter.
U2U me if i can help any further with pics etc?
Rob.
Yeah the bottles about an inch off the bonnet line and the rad does feel hot in the centre eventually.
I've ordered a low temp stat anyway, if it doesn't come by the weekend I'll drill mine and check its actually working!
It's very frustrating!
Does the inlet at the bottom of the header sit very low though? This is one of the avenues i'm exploring now.
Ben_Copeland - 30/4/13 at 07:08 AM
It's a cavalier bottle with the 3 outlets. The bottom pipe sits just above the battery tray / fire wall.
Not sure that's above the rad, infact it's probably level with the top rad pipe.
Ben_Copeland - 3/5/13 at 09:13 PM
Bit of an update.
New thermostat with a couple of small holes drilled into it.
Link pipe from heater put back in.
Run the engine back up to temperature, gauge went up to 110. All pipes hot, radiator is hot all over.
Fan didn't come on, infra red temperature sensor shows rad around 60oC but stat body was about 95oC. It's difficult to get a try temperature
with the infrared as the stat body and temp sensor is right next to exhaust manifold.
Only thing I've noticed is the expansion bottle is lower than the top of the radiator, although I've seen many pictures of caterhams with
bottles all over the place.
Wheels244 - 3/5/13 at 09:27 PM
Sorry Ben. I haven't chance to look for a pump yet - I'll try in the morning.
Are you going to Stoneleigh - I could bring it with me if I find one.
Ben_Copeland - 3/5/13 at 09:57 PM
Na not going. Got loads to do on the house etc.
laptoprob - 4/5/13 at 07:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Bit of an update.
New thermostat with a couple of small holes drilled into it.
Link pipe from heater put back in.
Run the engine back up to temperature, gauge went up to 110. All pipes hot, radiator is hot all over.
Fan didn't come on, infra red temperature sensor shows rad around 60oC but stat body was about 95oC. It's difficult to get a try temperature
with the infrared as the stat body and temp sensor is right next to exhaust manifold.
Only thing I've noticed is the expansion bottle is lower than the top of the radiator, although I've seen many pictures of caterhams with
bottles all over the place.
After my first real run out with the rear pipe fitted from the head i am struggling to get it over 65 deg but like i mentioned it was more a problem
on track after a couple of hours.
The board is still out on the level of the header tank which is my next change if this didnt work. Ive looked at loads of Westys over the past few
week s and they nearly all seem to have a small header tank very high up on the scuttle.
Id say you had a poor flowing rad(blocked?). if your seeing 95 at the thermo and 60 at the rad then water isnt flowing.
I had a similar problem years ago with an old Ford rad i had fitted and when i removed it i found that it was half full of crap.
rusty nuts - 4/5/13 at 08:25 AM
It's possible that you still have an air lock , it may be possible to bleed by removing the coolant temperature sensor that's likely to be
at the highest point of the cooling system. Worth a try and cost's nothing but just be careful if the engine is hot, it worked on the old 8 valve
OHC Vauxhall lumps . It certainly sounds like the coolant isn't circulating for some reason possibly
Ben_Copeland - 4/5/13 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Bit of an update.
New thermostat with a couple of small holes drilled into it.
Link pipe from heater put back in.
Run the engine back up to temperature, gauge went up to 110. All pipes hot, radiator is hot all over.
Fan didn't come on, infra red temperature sensor shows rad around 60oC but stat body was about 95oC. It's difficult to get a try temperature
with the infrared as the stat body and temp sensor is right next to exhaust manifold.
Only thing I've noticed is the expansion bottle is lower than the top of the radiator, although I've seen many pictures of caterhams with
bottles all over the place.
After my first real run out with the rear pipe fitted from the head i am struggling to get it over 65 deg but like i mentioned it was more a problem
on track after a couple of hours.
The board is still out on the level of the header tank which is my next change if this didnt work. Ive looked at loads of Westys over the past few
week s and they nearly all seem to have a small header tank very high up on the scuttle.
Id say you had a poor flowing rad(blocked?). if your seeing 95 at the thermo and 60 at the rad then water isnt flowing.
I had a similar problem years ago with an old Ford rad i had fitted and when i removed it i found that it was half full of crap.
The rads new because of this overheating.
The temp sensor is below the stat and isn't highest point unfortunately.
The bleed at the inlet side of the cylinder head would probably be the highest point.
This is a nightmare. Plus I now can't get the brakes to bleed out either so can't drive it ! Grrrrr
[Edited on 4/5/13 by Ben_Copeland]
laptoprob - 4/5/13 at 10:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
quote:
Originally posted by laptoprob
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Bit of an update.
New thermostat with a couple of small holes drilled into it.
Link pipe from heater put back in.
Run the engine back up to temperature, gauge went up to 110. All pipes hot, radiator is hot all over.
Fan didn't come on, infra red temperature sensor shows rad around 60oC but stat body was about 95oC. It's difficult to get a try temperature
with the infrared as the stat body and temp sensor is right next to exhaust manifold.
Only thing I've noticed is the expansion bottle is lower than the top of the radiator, although I've seen many pictures of caterhams with
bottles all over the place.
After my first real run out with the rear pipe fitted from the head i am struggling to get it over 65 deg but like i mentioned it was more a problem
on track after a couple of hours.
The board is still out on the level of the header tank which is my next change if this didnt work. Ive looked at loads of Westys over the past few
week s and they nearly all seem to have a small header tank very high up on the scuttle.
Id say you had a poor flowing rad(blocked?). if your seeing 95 at the thermo and 60 at the rad then water isnt flowing.
I had a similar problem years ago with an old Ford rad i had fitted and when i removed it i found that it was half full of crap.
The rads new because of this overheating.
The temp sensor is below the stat and isn't highest point unfortunately.
The bleed at the inlet side of the cylinder head would probably be the highest point.
This is a nightmare. Plus I now can't get the brakes to bleed out either so can't drive it ! Grrrrr
[Edited on 4/5/13 by Ben_Copeland]
Bit of a nightmare allround by the sounds of it Ben, sorry to hear it.
Do you have a bleed in the top of the rad?
[Edited on 4/5/13 by laptoprob]
Ben_Copeland - 4/5/13 at 11:16 AM
Yeah it's a polo rad with bleed on the top.
I didn't fit an oil cooler, but I'm thinking that's another thing that will help a little.
I'll look at the Westfield bottle and their plumbing and go from there.
Cheers mate
omega 24 v6 - 4/5/13 at 04:10 PM
Had my bonnet and nosecone off today and took some pics of my cooling set up for you. Once number one son emails them to me I'll get them to you
for comparison.
Meantime here is a description of how it goes. All descriptions/sides are as if sitting in the drivers seat.
Top hose to rad top left.
fFrom top of inlet manifold to t piece them from tee piece to rad top left 12mm (ish)and also to expansion bottle top fitting ( the water flows
through this pipe the minute the engine starts and is plainly visible in the expansion bottle.
from bottom of exp bottle to water pump std rubber tee where it joins to the rear of the water pump area. 32mm pipe or there abouts this rubber S
shaped type of water pipe is the std v/hall one. a spur from this rubber pipe also goes up to the underside of the inlet manifold ( std v/hall
manifold altered to accept gsxr bodies.
32 mm pipe from back of waterpump to bottom of rad l/h side.
Back of head blanked off.
std polo rad
v/hall rad temp sensor for the fan ( cuts in when the gauge reads 96 ish)
2500 miles so far and all good
Ben_Copeland - 4/5/13 at 09:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Had my bonnet and nosecone off today and took some pics of my cooling set up for you. Once number one son emails them to me I'll get them to you
for comparison.
Meantime here is a description of how it goes. All descriptions/sides are as if sitting in the drivers seat.
Top hose to rad top left.
fFrom top of inlet manifold to t piece them from tee piece to rad top left 12mm (ish)and also to expansion bottle top fitting ( the water flows
through this pipe the minute the engine starts and is plainly visible in the expansion bottle.
from bottom of exp bottle to water pump std rubber tee where it joins to the rear of the water pump area. 32mm pipe or there abouts this rubber S
shaped type of water pipe is the std v/hall one. a spur from this rubber pipe also goes up to the underside of the inlet manifold ( std v/hall
manifold altered to accept gsxr bodies.
32 mm pipe from back of waterpump to bottom of rad l/h side.
Back of head blanked off.
std polo rad
v/hall rad temp sensor for the fan ( cuts in when the gauge reads 96 ish)
2500 miles so far and all good
Sounds the same as mine, but i dont have to Tee piece as both pipes run back to the tank (although i've tried it with a tie piece)
Tried the back of the head connected and blocked off didnt make a difference.
Need another car to compare it too
omega 24 v6 - 4/5/13 at 10:19 PM
can you see the return to the tank?? The flow on mines is quite defined/visible. Also is it possible that your hoses are " collapsing or kinking
once they warm up??
We are really clutching at straws now are'nt we.?
Ben_Copeland - 5/5/13 at 05:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
can you see the return to the tank?? The flow on mines is quite defined/visible. Also is it possible that your hoses are " collapsing or kinking
once they warm up??
We are really clutching at straws now are'nt we.?
There's return from the inlet manifold bleed to the bottle, but nothing from the rad bleed.
No kinks or collapse as they are silicon anyway.
Ben_Copeland - 7/5/13 at 06:26 PM
Oh well at least i've fixed the brakes. Will raise the header tank this week and hope for the best.
Wheels244 - 7/5/13 at 07:19 PM
I couldn't find a pump Ben.
Do you want me to take pics of my set up and email them to you ?
teegray19 - 7/5/13 at 07:48 PM
Totally different engine however, my crossflow ran very hot with the standard 93-102degs thermo in for ages, dropped it down to 80ish opening never
goes above 90degs now. Worth playing around with a range of thermostats.
Also might want to look at the diameter of the driven belt wheel on the pump, different sizes increase or decrease speed of pump rotation like gear
systems. It might not be a standard size, people fit smaller driven wheels to reduce the amount of drive on the pump extending life! crazy I know...
Ben_Copeland - 7/5/13 at 08:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wheels244
I couldn't find a pump Ben.
Do you want me to take pics of my set up and email them to you ?
Yes please mate.
ben_copeland at hotmail dot com
dave_424 - 7/5/13 at 09:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by teegray19
Totally different engine however, my crossflow ran very hot with the standard 93-102degs thermo in for ages, dropped it down to 80ish opening never
goes above 90degs now. Worth playing around with a range of thermostats.
Also might want to look at the diameter of the driven belt wheel on the pump, different sizes increase or decrease speed of pump rotation like gear
systems. It might not be a standard size, people fit smaller driven wheels to reduce the amount of drive on the pump extending life! crazy I know...
Wouldn't smaller driven pulley increase RPM of the pump?
Wheels244 - 7/5/13 at 09:09 PM
email sent with pics
britishtrident - 7/5/13 at 10:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by teegray19
Totally different engine however, my crossflow ran very hot with the standard 93-102degs thermo in for ages, dropped it down to 80ish opening never
goes above 90degs now. Worth playing around with a range of thermostats.
Also might want to look at the diameter of the driven belt wheel on the pump, different sizes increase or decrease speed of pump rotation like gear
systems. It might not be a standard size, people fit smaller driven wheels to reduce the amount of drive on the pump extending life! crazy I know...
The reason racers with high RPM engines fit smaller crank pulleys to slow the water pump down is if you spin a centrifugal pump at too high RPM you
get cavitation, as a result the pump flow rate is greatly reduced and the power required to turn the pump greatly increases.
Why did you fit an 93c thermostat in an xflo ? the factory spec was 83 or 88c start to open.
Paul Turner - 8/5/13 at 09:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Why did you fit an 93c thermostat in an xflo ? the factory spec was 83 or 88c start to open.
The original Ford spec for a X-Flow stat was 74 degrees. Had one in all my X-Flows from 1980 to 2002. When I sold all my old bits buyers on E-Bay
flocked for the 74 degree stat, was told they were unavailable new.
Engine always ran at 78 degrees on an accurate gauge and I never had any issues. Fan switched on at 88 degrees and off at 84 degrees but eventually I
did fit a manual override switch.
Ben_Copeland - 8/5/13 at 10:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by teegray19
Totally different engine however, my crossflow ran very hot with the standard 93-102degs thermo in for ages, dropped it down to 80ish opening never
goes above 90degs now. Worth playing around with a range of thermostats.
Also might want to look at the diameter of the driven belt wheel on the pump, different sizes increase or decrease speed of pump rotation like gear
systems. It might not be a standard size, people fit smaller driven wheels to reduce the amount of drive on the pump extending life! crazy I know...
The pumps an aftermarket standard arrangement. Nothing wrong with the pulley size. Which I'm now thinking I'm going to have to replace the
pump and stick a jetwash in the water jacket within the cylinder head
britishtrident - 8/5/13 at 10:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Why did you fit an 93c thermostat in an xflo ? the factory spec was 83 or 88c start to open.
The original Ford spec for a X-Flow stat was 74 degrees. Had one in all my X-Flows from 1980 to 2002. When I sold all my old bits buyers on E-Bay
flocked for the 74 degree stat, was told they were unavailable new.
Engine always ran at 78 degrees on an accurate gauge and I never had any issues. Fan switched on at 88 degrees and off at 84 degrees but eventually I
did fit a manual override switch.
Sorry but you should check your facts a 74c stat being standard fitting is nonsense any manufacture fitting a 74c stat in the UK market
would soon get complaints of selling cars with ineffective heaters.
In most thermostat catalogues of the 1960s a to 1980s 84c was the standard stat and 88c was listed the "hot heater" option. By the
late 1970s emissions and Fuel economy were more important and 88c stats were standard fitting.
Normal parts outlets never carried the 74c stat is was always a special order item, BMC/BL always sold it from their Special Tuning parts
brochure.
Paul Turner - 8/5/13 at 11:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Sorry but you should check your facts a 74c stat being standard fitting is nonsense
Don't need to check the facts. I know what was fitted to my engines. They were either OEM FoMoCo and Motorcraft or QH parts.
teegray19 - 8/5/13 at 05:29 PM
Thermo in mine may have been aftermarket, I dropped in a lower opening temp and enjoy sitting in traffic and not watching it shoot off the temp
scale.
I was only throwing up suggestions not trying to cause arguments! Fill it with the waterless coolant and stop worrying about it boiling until 140degs
or something.
jeffw - 8/5/13 at 06:05 PM
Ben
Are you sure the temp gauge is correct? If you are seeing 95 deg at the thermostat housing and 60 deg on the rad but the temp gauge is at 115deg
maybe the sender/gauge is faulty or miss matched. What does the ECU think the water temp is?
Ben_Copeland - 12/5/13 at 03:28 PM
Hi Jeff,
The gauge is correct. It was showing just under 100 at that point.
I raised the coolant bottle before my MOT, not sure if its made any difference. When cruising the temperature is stable and drops a little, but heats
up when under heavy throttle or sitting still.
I dont know what to do next now. I'm going to have to pull all the pipes off next weekend and try flushing the head out. Then its replace pump
time. Cant think what else it can be.
britishtrident - 12/5/13 at 03:49 PM
It would be good to know what the temperature of the coolant coming out the lower outlet of the radiator is when you are putting the engine under
load.
If the temperature at this point is low then it points to a coolant circulation problem, if it is high then it points to the radiator being to
small or not getting enough airflow to dispose of the heat the engine is producing.
britishtrident - 12/5/13 at 03:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Sorry but you should check your facts a 74c stat being standard fitting is nonsense
Don't need to check the facts. I know what was fitted to my engines. They were either OEM FoMoCo and Motorcraft or QH parts.
Boswollox
teegray19 - 12/5/13 at 03:54 PM
I was speaking to a lad that has an MNR who has similar problems. He found sticking some Vents in the bonnet done the trick to circulate the air
correctly.
Ben_Copeland - 12/5/13 at 03:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by teegray19
I was speaking to a lad that has an MNR who has similar problems. He found sticking some Vents in the bonnet done the trick to circulate the air
correctly.
Overheats with bonnet and nosecone off...
teegray19 - 12/5/13 at 04:00 PM
Maybes try a vauhxall forum and see what they have to say? Am sure the circulation in a 7 is better than a corsa or Astra?
Ben_Copeland - 12/5/13 at 04:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
It would be good to know what the temperature of the coolant coming out the lower outlet of the radiator is when you are putting the engine under
load.
If the temperature at this point is low then it points to a coolant circulation problem, if it is high then it points to the radiator being to
small or not getting enough airflow to dispose of the heat the engine is producing.
I'm thinking it must circulation problem because theres no water coming out of the bleed at the top of the polo radiator, which is lower than the
bottle
teegray19 - 12/5/13 at 04:19 PM
May have a huge air lock, try holding the catch tank as high as the piping alows when the engine is running and see if it slurps the water trough.
perksy - 12/5/13 at 04:31 PM
Strange that drilling the extra holes in the stat didn't help it as this has helped folk in the past mate.
(SBD sell a lower operating stat which is worth a thought)
Is the coolant tank the highest part of the layout ?
Have you got the small take off from the head plumbed in or is it blanked off ?
Sorry if these questions have been asked already...
My layout if it helps....
Ben_Copeland - 12/5/13 at 04:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by perksy
Strange that drilling the extra holes in the stat didn't help it as this has helped folk in the past mate.
(SBD sell a lower operating stat which is worth a thought)
Is the coolant tank the highest part of the layout ?
Have you got the small take off from the head plumbed in or is it blanked off ?
Sorry if these questions have been asked already...
My layout if it helps....
Coolant tank is as high as possible. Small take off is plumbed straight back to the coolant bottle.
What tank have you got?
Its bit difficult to tell the plumbing with your pictures as theres so many pipes !
perksy - 12/5/13 at 04:50 PM
Standard Westfield Coolant tank mate which if i remember right is from a Ford Fiesta.
When you changed the coolant, what state was it in ?
Have you used Speedflush to flush the coolant system out ? (although i believe the Rad is a new one ?)
Ben_Copeland - 12/5/13 at 05:10 PM
I'll have a look at speedflush and see what it can do 
Coolants never got old
I'll check fiest bottle too thanks
Ben_Copeland - 1/6/13 at 04:36 PM
Bit if an update. All flushed but no dirt come out.
Changed water pump to a good manufacturer, also I wrapped the thermostat and temperature sensors in heat wrap to make sure there was no heat soak from
the manifold which is close.
No air inside definately.
I've wired the fan to stay on which helps keep the temperatures down but far from ideal
Run out of ideas now, going to ring sbd on Monday see if they can help.
[Edited on 1/6/13 by Ben_Copeland]
britishtrident - 1/6/13 at 06:08 PM
This is a long thread to read back through so I take you are 100% sure on the gauge accuracy ?
Only other things left are ignition timing excessively retarded or a leak, small steam leaks are invisible and the only way to track them
down is a cold pressure test.
I pressure test using home made tester based on a design found on the web for a cylinder leakdown tester, it has two gauges with a restrictor when
up to pressure between them any difference in reading between the gauges indicates a leak.
Ben_Copeland - 1/6/13 at 06:19 PM
Megasquirt was setup on a rolling road by Matt @ Mtech. Fairly confident that he knew what he was doing but i'm guessing its definately worth
checking.
Where would you test on the coolant system ? Between where and where?
Thanks
britishtrident - 1/6/13 at 07:09 PM
A leakdown test just tees into the small bore hose between the header and top of engine, it is surprising how many hidden leaks it will show
up.
Three times mine has picked up leaks that had been misdiagnosed as head gasket failure.
A restrictoris fitted between the two gauges. Take the pressure up to rad running pressure and and after a couple of seconds any difference between
the two gauge readings will tell you have leak which you should also be able hear or see.
The best way to check radiator flow is disconnect the top and bottom hoses and fit a garden hose into the bottom hose,with the garden hose on full
flow if water pours out the top good style all is well.
[Edited on 1/6/13 by britishtrident]
Ben_Copeland - 1/6/13 at 07:16 PM
Thanks mate, The rad is fine, i've flushed everything through with a garden hose.
I think i get the way that tester works. basically your pressurising the system, what sort of pressure do you usually put in?
britishtrident - 1/6/13 at 08:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Thanks mate, The rad is fine, i've flushed everything through with a garden hose.
I think i get the way that tester works. basically your pressurising the system, what sort of pressure do you usually put in?
Just short of the pressure cap rating -- usually on the MG-Rover stuff I work on 1.4bar/20 psi
Even a slight leak will show up as a 2psi difference. A smaller hole in the restrictor will give a bigger difference between the two gauges. I
just used a mig tip because it was easy and what the plans for the DIY cylinder leakdown tester I copied it from used.
Ben_Copeland - 1/6/13 at 10:27 PM
OK thanks, i'll have a look at making one.
If i do find a pressure drop how the hell do i go about finding the leak lol
[Edited on 1/6/13 by Ben_Copeland]
dave_424 - 1/6/13 at 10:35 PM
Soapy water in a spray bottle, spray around the engine and should see bubbles where the leak is. If it is a leak of a good size you will hear it as
well.
Ben_Copeland - 1/6/13 at 10:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Soapy water in a spray bottle, spray around the engine and should see bubbles where the leak is. If it is a leak of a good size you will hear it as
well.
Ah of course...
Thanks
britishtrident - 2/6/13 at 07:59 AM
This is from Wikipedia
Sealey sell similar tester but they cost too much.
Usually you can also hear any leaks.
[Edited on 2/6/13 by britishtrident]
Ben_Copeland - 2/6/13 at 09:27 AM
Well I've might not have all the bits , but I have got a compressor with regulator so I might try connecting that on and just seeing if I can
see/ hear any leaks before making a leak down tester.
Thanks you for all the info, wish this was easy!
Ben_Copeland - 2/6/13 at 03:42 PM
Not had time to make a tester, but I did tee in an airline @ 20psi. Water leaked from the top hose between rad and thermostat.
Could that of been causing overheating? I've wacked a second jubilee clip on the pipe and its stopped the leak. That was the only one that was
appearent.
Got to get a new sump before starting it so won't know till next weekend.
mike2704 - 2/6/13 at 04:00 PM
Hi common fault with these is the inner water pump fins spin on the center shaft, looks ok when u check the flow but when it gets hot its worse.
you will have to take the pump out to check.
Hope this helps Mike
Ben_Copeland - 2/6/13 at 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mike2704
Hi common fault with these is the inner water pump fins spin on the center shaft, looks ok when u check the flow but when it gets hot its worse.
you will have to take the pump out to check.
Hope this helps Mike
It's had two water pumps mate. So I doubt very much this is the issue.
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 04:09 PM
Bit if an update.
So now I've changed head gasket and cylinder head because the head gasket blew on the motorway.
Basically nothing but the ECU, pipe work and car is left.
New bottom end, new cylinder head, new thermostat, new fan switch, new water pump, new radiator, raised water bottle, pumped 20 psi into system and
find a tiny leak.
The radiator is just not getting hot enough to turn the fan on, this is ridiculous.
rdodger - 6/7/13 at 05:15 PM
Just to recap.
It doesn't overheat when driven gently?
It does overheat when driven quickly?
Does it over heat when sat at idle?
There is no flow from the radiator bleed?
If that is correct then the fan coming on isn't the issue as it won't help at all when you are moving. Even at modest speed there should be
much more air flow through the rad than any fan could manage.
It seems to me that there just isn't enough flow through the rad. Surely there should be a good flow through the rad bleed back to the header
tank?
Are you 100% sure there is no air in the system?
Are you 100% sure that the water pump is working?
Last one. Can you lay your hands on/ borrow an electric pump and plumb that in to see if things improve?
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 05:38 PM
That's all correct.
It overheats when idle.
Got a 16inch fan now and that cools the engine a little if its wired on all the time.
It's definately a flow problem.
Don't know anyone with an electric fan unfortunately.
rdodger - 6/7/13 at 06:10 PM
Well as I see it then it's one of 3 things
1, The water pump isn't working properly
2, It isn't plumbed correctly.
3, There is an obstruction somewhere.
I know you have been through this but ......
...when you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'
Sherlock Holmes
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 06:20 PM
1. Brand New Pump x 2
2. Plumbed as per SBD's well used guide
3. Everythings been flushed and theres no obstructions in the pipework/radiator. I doubt very much 2 blocks and 2 cylinder heads have the same
blockage.
rdodger - 6/7/13 at 06:43 PM
Why is there no flow through the radiator then?
Did you try a clear length of hose?
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 07:08 PM
I couldnt find a clear hose big enough
rdodger - 6/7/13 at 07:13 PM
This any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reinforced-CLEAR-PVC-Braided-Hose-Water-Pipe-Flexible-Plastic-Food-Air-Oil-Tube-/140697124967?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=
440131205000&hash=item20c233c067
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 07:25 PM
Thanks, i'll have a measure up and see what size i need.
wylliezx9r - 6/7/13 at 08:29 PM
Silly question maybe but iss the thermostat definately opening.Have u tried drilling a couple of holes in it ? That wworked for me when I was getting
flow problems due to trapped air.
HTH.
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 08:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
Silly question maybe but iss the thermostat definately opening.Have u tried drilling a couple of holes in it ? That wworked for me when I was getting
flow problems due to trapped air.
HTH.
Yep, checked in boiling water and has holes drilled in it
spaximus - 6/7/13 at 09:21 PM
this is probably a silly suggestion, but have you got the belts correctly installed. I did once see a car where they guy had done away with the
tensioners, as it looked cool, but had then made the water pump run the wrong way.
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 09:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
this is probably a silly suggestion, but have you got the belts correctly installed. I did once see a car where they guy had done away with the
tensioners, as it looked cool, but had then made the water pump run the wrong way.
All standard and timed up correctly.
davidimurray - 6/7/13 at 09:36 PM
I had similar problems with my pinto when I first plumbed it up. Mine would over heat and the fan would not kick in. Checked the thermostat out of the
car and it worked fine. My system was basically plumbed as a loop with the expansion tank tee'd in.
What I found was that the system was basically running against the deadhead that was formed by the thermostat. The water in the pipes and radiator
were slowly heating up, but there was no flow around the system and hence the thermostat never got hot enough to open, meanwhile the water in the
block just sat there getting hot.
My solution was that there was a small outlet on the thermostat elbow. I added an 8mm bypass line from the thermostat to the top of the expansion
tank, this gives a constant flow of water over the thermostat and makes sure it opens.
Before making this mod my car wouldn't idle without overheating, now it will sit happily being revved away without any problem.
Can you try running without the thermostat just as a test. That will at least tell you if it is an issue with the thermostat.
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 09:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by davidimurray
I had similar problems with my pinto when I first plumbed it up. Mine would over heat and the fan would not kick in. Checked the thermostat out of the
car and it worked fine. My system was basically plumbed as a loop with the expansion tank tee'd in.
What I found was that the system was basically running against the deadhead that was formed by the thermostat. The water in the pipes and radiator
were slowly heating up, but there was no flow around the system and hence the thermostat never got hot enough to open, meanwhile the water in the
block just sat there getting hot.
My solution was that there was a small outlet on the thermostat elbow. I added an 8mm bypass line from the thermostat to the top of the expansion
tank, this gives a constant flow of water over the thermostat and makes sure it opens.
Before making this mod my car wouldn't idle without overheating, now it will sit happily being revved away without any problem.
Can you try running without the thermostat just as a test. That will at least tell you if it is an issue with the thermostat.
No thermostat isnt recommended, but i think i'll try it anyway. Cant get any worse !
rdodger - 6/7/13 at 10:07 PM
Don't you have a bypass Ben? Doesn't it bypass around the heater circuit?
Ben_Copeland - 6/7/13 at 10:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Don't you have a bypass Ben? Doesn't it bypass around the heater circuit?
I have a link pipe were the heater should be, ive also tried it with the heater circuit blanked off.
I also have a bleed from the radiator and from the inlet manifold. Theres no facility for bleed from thermostat body, but i could tap one in.
britishtrident - 6/7/13 at 10:39 PM
The overheating at idle keeps throwing my mind back to ignition timing, retarded timing causes a huge increase in heat energy rejected to the water
jacket and exhaust.
Ben_Copeland - 7/7/13 at 06:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The overheating at idle keeps throwing my mind back to ignition timing, retarded timing causes a huge increase in heat energy rejected to the water
jacket and exhaust.
It's on a coil pack so I need to check the ecu to see what ignition timing it's running, but would that affect it whilst driving?
rusty nuts - 7/7/13 at 06:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
quote:
Theres no facility for bleed from thermostat body, but i could tap one in.
It may be possible to bleed by removing the temperature sensor while filling, works on the 8 valve Vauxhall engines . Putting an in line bleed in the
by pass hose might help. If you still have the old thermostat try removing the valve section so you just have the outer ring in place , if that cures
the overheating then the stat isn't opening, probably due to an airlock behind the stat
Ben_Copeland - 7/7/13 at 06:25 AM
There's holes drilled in the thermostat so hopefully it shouldn't have any air in there. But I'll try it again with temp sender out too
