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X/flow starter cracks slowly, then ok
GeoffH - 5/1/14 at 02:57 PM

I've had this problem with my 1.6 x/flow for ages and just can't solve it. When I go to start the engine after a day or two, it turns over really slow and is hard to start. Once it's been driven for a few minutes, it then turns over at a normal speed and starts fine. This happens winter or summer but worse in the winter.

I've checked everything, cleaned all the earth connections and other connections. Checked charging - recently replaced diodes etc in alternator. Replaced battery about two years ago.

I'm assuming if the starter is faulty it will either work or not work, it won't fail gradually? Are there any tests to do on the starter? It's done about 80k miles.

Any thoughts?

jacko - 5/1/14 at 03:23 PM

Too much advance on the timing knock it back a small amount and try that you can always put it back if it is not that
My pinto was the same
Jacko
PS welcome to the site

britishtrident - 5/1/14 at 04:13 PM

Yes it sounds like the engine has too much low speed/static advance and trying to start backwards fighting the starter.
A common problem on xflows.
However check you have the correct points gap before retarding the dizzie if you are on old fashioned ignition as Ford/Fomoco/Autolite distributers have a mauch wider gap than the Lucas or Bosch alternatives.

GeoffH - 5/1/14 at 04:24 PM

Thanks, I'l try that.

I actually have the Luminition ignition system so, no points.

GeoffH - 12/1/14 at 07:30 PM

I tested this by disconnecting all the plug leads and turning it over. Made no difference. It turns over so slowly I doubt it's sucking in enough mixture to fire.

Any further thoughts?

rusty nuts - 12/1/14 at 07:56 PM

Is it any better if you use jump leads from a known good battery? Have you tried running a jump lead between the battery negative terminal and the block? Have you had the battery tested? If any of those doesn't help then I would suspect the starter motor If you have to replace it make sure you get one with the correct number of teeth on the Hendrix if it is an inertia type . Might also be worth checking the ring gear for wear and also you have the correct number of teeth for the t
Yep of starter IIRC inertia ring gears have 110 teeth and the pre engaged 130 HTH

britishtrident - 13/1/14 at 07:19 AM

Do a cranking voltage test when the engine is cold , charge the battery so it has a least. 3/4 charge then leave it to rest overnight, a typical fully battery will show a voltage of between 12.4 and 12.8 volts depending temperature. However in sub-zero temperatures the voltage across the battery can drop much lower.
The cranking voltage test is simply the voltage across the battery when the engine is turning on the starter.
The cranking voltage varies depending on battery size, underbonnet temperature oil grade and other factors but should normally be around 10.2 to 11.5 volts.
A cranking voltage that instantly drops below 9 volts to around 6volts is a definite sign of a dead battery.
If the cranking voltage slowly falls then it is an indication of a battery needing charged.

GeoffH - 13/1/14 at 11:31 AM

I already have an earth lead from the battery to the block. The battery seems to be charged, I checked the voltage, but I haven't had it load tested. Is there a way to test the starter before replacing it, just to be sure? As I mentioned in my original post, once it's been running for a few minutes, when I stop it an go to start it again it starts fine with a good speed of turnover, so weird!

I'll try the cranking voltage test.

Is there a possibility it could be badly pitted contacts on the solenoid?

gdische - 13/1/14 at 12:32 PM

You are not alone! Mine is the same. In the summer it's fine. In the winter I need to use another battery to boost the one in the car for the first start of the day.

The battery isn't very big - this may be part of the problem, and it may be that when it's cold it won't give so much power. The battery cables and starter solenoid are all new.

Geoff

britishtrident - 13/1/14 at 01:38 PM

Part of the problem is the Ford inertia starter is working right at the top end of its capacity, it is the same size starter as the Hillman Imp and BMC A series.

Oil grade has a big effect also 20w/50 in kent engine has a long history starting problems in winter.
Modern engine oils can give much easier starting at the cold end and better protection both hot and cold.

britishtrident - 13/1/14 at 02:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by GeoffH
I already have an earth lead from the battery to the block. The battery seems to be charged, I checked the voltage, but I haven't had it load tested. Is there a way to test the starter before replacing it, just to be sure? As I mentioned in my original post, once it's been running for a few minutes, when I stop it an go to start it again it starts fine with a good speed of turnover, so weird!

I'll try the cranking voltage test.

Is there a possibility it could be badly pitted contacts on the solenoid?


Unlikely to be a solenoid problem but it could be other things such a worn crankshaft thrust washers.
Interesting unlike other manufacturers Ford recommended starting the engine with the clutch depressed, from experience this actually makes starting Ford Kent engines easier.

What the cranking voltage test is about is the internal resistance of the battery, all batteries have internal resistance but a dead cell will cause such high internal resistance that the power available from the starter will only be 1/3 of the normal.
Normally on a battery with a dead cell the cranking voltage plummets to 6 volts or so and remains there but sometimes with a battery with dead cell the cranking voltage drops to 6 volts and then rises as the battery heats up.

Most replacement batteries are not of the quality of OEM fitment batteries don't last much beyond the battery warranty period, ie a 2 year guaranteed battery will normally fail in its third winter and a 5 year warranty battery will normally last 5 to 7 years.

Batteries with longer warranties are not that much more expensive than those with 2 year warranty, example from Tayna Batteries a type 063 Varta with a 4 year warranty is £5 more than the cheapest available battery.

[Edited on 13/1/14 by britishtrident]

steve m - 13/1/14 at 05:07 PM

I have had this issue for years with my Xflows, and it is a real pita !!

So last year, I bought a bigger battery from the 063, and now an 075

I was very disappointed to find that after a matter of weeks, the cranking power had diminished, and although a jump start
would help for a few days, it would drop off after a couple of weeks

First thing I did, was replace ALL of the leads from earth to chassis and add an earth direct to the engine
then a new "plus" wire from the battery to solenoid and solenoid to the starter

WOW what a difference !! I could actually spin the engine over and it registered on the rev counter !!

but after a couple of weeks, again it would slow down

so more investigation work, that transpires (and could be my fault) that both of the alternator plus feed wires were joined
together about 6" from the alternator, and one wire went to the battery, again after fixing this, so its now two thick 30amp wires
to the plus side of the battery, I have not had a problem

so can only believe, that the battery was getting not getting full amperage, but was getting 12volts

Steve

GeoffH - 13/1/14 at 05:34 PM

Interesting post Steve.

I've always had two thick wires going from the alternator to the battery and while I've checked the charging voltage at the battery, about 14 volts I recall, I've never checked the current. Don't even know what it should be or whether the current makes any difference to charging?

Indeed I don't know if I can check it with my meter as the wires on the meter prob. aren't thick enough!

[Edited on 13/1/14 by GeoffH]

britishtrident - 14/1/14 at 07:32 AM

The voltage at the actual battery terminals with heavy loads on such as the headlamps and heater blower on gives an indication of the current.
Generally with the loads switched on anything above 13.4 volts at 2,000 at the battery indicates the alternator is meeting the demand and charging the battery.


Measuring the current either means inserting ammeter into the wiring or using a DC clamp ammeter.

britishtrident - 14/1/14 at 07:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by GeoffH
Interesting post Steve.

I've always had two thick wires going from the alternator to the battery and while I've checked the charging voltage at the battery, about 14 volts I recall, I've never checked the current. Don't even know what it should be or whether the current makes any difference to charging?

Indeed I don't know if I can check it with my meter as the wires on the meter prob. aren't thick enough!

[Edited on 13/1/14 by GeoffH]


With old style alternators with 3 blade connector plugs the charging connection was via two 35 amp lucar spade connectors. This type of connector really isn't up to the job and tend to suffer from arcing which errodes the connector in the alternator. If the arcing is severe it causes voltage spikes which can blow the alternator regulator and other electronics in the car. First port of call when this style of alternator is to either renew the spades or use pliers to squeeze them to tighten the connection and clean the blade connectors in the alternator with a manicurists emmery board.

GeoffH - 14/1/14 at 11:26 AM

I must have this old style alternator as I have the three blade connector plug. When I changed the diodes and regulator recently, the spades looked ok and of course are now brand new. I'll check the voltage when the battery is under high demand though.

GeoffH - 8/2/14 at 05:01 PM

So, I've finally got around to doing all the tests suggested and here are the results.. It still turns over real slow by the way and hasn't been driven since my last post.

Battery voltage 12.33

Battery Voltage while cranking 7.6 sometimes dropping briefly to 6.7

Voltage at starter side of solenoid, starter disconnected 11.6

Also did a resistance test between the battery negative and the body of the starter which was 0.5ohms - essentially zero, so the starter has a good earth.

The solenoid was a bit warm after all these tests so I may replace it but I doubt it will completely solve the problem.

David Jenkins - 8/2/14 at 06:11 PM

At 90 - 100 Amps cranking current, a resistance of 0.5 ohms is NOT good! Using the equation of V = IR (Ohm's law, turned around) that means that it would want to drop 45 - 50 Volts - which you haven't got in the first place.

You want the resistance so low that you can't measure it with a normal multimeter, else you're not going to be able to supply the current.

It still sounds like the battery is failing to produce the cranking voltage though... you should be seeing 9 or 10 volts while cranking. Do you have a friend with a spare healthy battery, plus some hefty jump leads? That would prove whether the battery is fit for purpose.

[Edited on 8/2/14 by David Jenkins]

GeoffH - 8/2/14 at 06:23 PM

I should add that when I tested the resistance setting on the multi meter, touching the two test leads together read as 0.5ohms so assumed it was essentially zero.

I don't have access to another battery unfortunately. The indicator on the battery shows green but I don't know what that measures!

David Jenkins - 8/2/14 at 06:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by GeoffH
I don't have access to another battery unfortunately.


Do you have a normal car (tin-top)? You could use jump leads to that one - or to the battery of a friend's or relative's car, maybe.

GeoffH - 8/2/14 at 07:07 PM

I do but no jump leads. Maybe I'll get the battery charged and go from there. It is something that has happened yearly since I built the car in 1990, despite a number of battery changes! So must be something quite fundamental.

black fingernail - 8/2/14 at 07:51 PM

Bad contacts in the solenoid causes a big resistance and makes the starter turn slowly when it is cold.

rusty nuts - 8/2/14 at 08:13 PM

Put your location in your profile, someone near you may be able to help with jump leads etc.

britishtrident - 8/2/14 at 09:27 PM

If you are using a DMM to measure it sounds like your meter. needs a new battery they read out by a mile if the battery is low.
You need to measure the battery voltage and cranking voltage at the actual battery terminals.

Battery voltage varies with temperature in current ambient UK temperatures. 12.4 to 12.5 volts is about right for a battery with a good charge.

Unless find at 12.4 to 12.8 volts across the battery after resting off charge for a couple of hours or more then there is no point in starting on other tests without charging the battery.
The proper way to check the battery and earth leads is to measure the voltage drop between both ends of the cable.
Start by testing the earth lead connect your DMM between the cylinder block and the battery negative when cranking the engine. When cranking the engine expect the meter to read less than 0.2 volts usually more like less than 0.1 volts.
Then do the same test between the starter power terminal and the battery + terminal expect similar volts dropped readings.

However from reading your post it sounds like the battery is either goosed or needs charged.

[Edited on 8/2/14 by britishtrident]

GeoffH - 9/2/14 at 11:45 AM

I did the battery tests across the battery terminals at rest and while cranking.

I have an earth cable going directly from the battery to the engine so is that earth test still relevant?

I'll have the battery charged and test again but I know this problem will re-occur at some point as it always does, winter or summer, though less so in the summer. I often don't drive it for a week or two at a time, could that be relevant? I have checked for current drain but found none.

I'll also change the solenoid just in case as it's cheap and is the original having done 80k miles and it was warm after the tests which I believe indicates high resistance?

Oh and if I measure volts between the battery + and the starter power point, will it not try and run the starter and melt the meter?!

[Edited on 9/2/14 by GeoffH]