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Author: Subject: Rebuild engine or swap for alternative powerplant
se7ensport

posted on 9/6/11 at 07:18 PM Reply With Quote
Rebuild engine or swap for alternative powerplant

Evening

Having had my cambelt slip and ruin valves etc I'm struggling to decide if I should get it rebuild or swap powerplants... I'm looking for reliability and a minimum of 160bhp at flywheel.

Existing spec:

Pinto; stage 3 head, road/rally FR33 cam, gsxr1000 TB's on bogg bro manifold, VEMS ecu (like megasquirt), 205 bottom end with 1300 miles from new(!) and rs2000 sump.

Work needed (or specified by me) to engine builder:

8 new valves, convert to unleaded, replace cam as it now has a flat spot, new followers due to damage, HD clutch and cover, steel lightweight flywheel, crack test pistons and rods following valve impact, balance bottom end while its apart, fit new rings and ARP bolts.

I've already bought the ARP bolts, flywheel, and clutch part for approx £400, looks like engine work to complete + other parts is going to be £700-900 (I'm awaiting the call...).

If I call it quits on the pinto now I've probably spent £100-150 in labour so far.

I can sell the stripped head for about £100, the bottom end 205 block is probably worth another £100, sump £80, flywheel and clutch could be used on another build or possibly exchanged. ECU and TB's again could be used on alternative engine and the manifold and a set of bike carbs sold for about £150.

An engine swap would be cool and keeps playing on my mind, I'm looking for a pretty much bolt in affair, car is a Sylva Stylus so engine mounts from a Fisher Fury will fit...

Is it sensible to spend nearly £1400 to have the pinto fixed or is it the ideal time to swap? If so what and approx cost/effort?

Help.

Alex

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big_wasa

posted on 9/6/11 at 07:51 PM Reply With Quote
The price of your used bits sound a little high. Standard 2.0 zetec with your carbs should be good for 165bhp pinto rebuild will be less work but £1400 sounds high on a pinto rebuild.
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pewe

posted on 9/6/11 at 07:57 PM Reply With Quote
As a first reaction you'll be spending loadsa cash to update an engine which, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't have any further potential AND it's an old engine.
If you can come out of it without losing too much money it's probably best to buy a more modern engine with more potential.
That's providing the rest of the mechanicals - drive-train etc are up to it and whatever you choose will fit.
With my Lancia engine I have few doubts that if I blew it up big time and despite the fact it's supercharged I'd bin it for something more modern/available.
I detect there's a move to fitting MX5 engines as they are readily available (read cheap) and produce good power.
HTH.
Cheers, Pewe

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nick205

posted on 9/6/11 at 08:18 PM Reply With Quote
It's got to be a Duratec surely?

You can probably re-use some of your Pinto bits - I'm sure people on here have managed to adjust Pinto exhaust manfolds to fit the Duratec install for example.

From what you list, a new inlet manifold, new engine mounts and a few clutch parts should see you back on the road with comfortably over 160 bhp from a new, lightweight and reliable engine.

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se7ensport

posted on 9/6/11 at 08:31 PM Reply With Quote
I'm seriously considering an s2000 engine as I would only need to sort exhaust manifold, prop and engine mounts at a cost of approx £2k engine.
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stevegough

posted on 9/6/11 at 09:26 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
I'm seriously considering an s2000 engine as I would only need to sort exhaust manifold, prop and engine mounts at a cost of approx £2k engine.


With all due respect - why are you asking us - this is surely a no-brainer - you infer that the engine you are thinking of rebuilding is not quite as powerful as you want, that being a 2 grand s2000 honda - cracking engine, and plenty of donors around thanks to the fact that most s2000s get crashed by their owners! Yet you are talking of a spend of 3/4 of that just to get back what you had before....
.....go on!.....
......bite the bullet!

You only live once, move forward and live for today!



On a more practical note, what does fitting an s2000 mean in terms of gearbox, clutch, bellhousing, engine management / S.U carbs / other costs? If the engine is 2 grand, what will the whole job cost?





Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14

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se7ensport

posted on 9/6/11 at 09:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stevegough
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
I'm seriously considering an s2000 engine as I would only need to sort exhaust manifold, prop and engine mounts at a cost of approx £2k engine.


With all due respect - why are you asking us - this is surely a no-brainer....

...On a more practical note, what does fitting an s2000 mean in terms of gearbox, clutch, bellhousing, engine management / S.U carbs / other costs? If the engine is 2 grand, what will the whole job cost?


I like the idea of an extra 80+ bhp for £500 and it makes it a super modern kit, but your last comment sums up the nub of the problem; I'm not sure on the costs beyond engine, prop and exhaust; I should be able to drop the lot in (engine, box, ecu and inlet manifold). But then there are other considerations i.e. not sure of transmission widths; will it fit my chassis etc... Not to mention that by trying to be expediant at getting current engine back on the road I've already outlayed £400 in parts of which I'll be lucky to get £300 back.

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stevegough

posted on 9/6/11 at 10:02 PM Reply With Quote
At the end of the day.....its your call!





Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14

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BaileyPerformance

posted on 9/6/11 at 10:14 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
I'm seriously considering an s2000 engine as I would only need to sort exhaust manifold, prop and engine mounts at a cost of approx £2k engine.


We did a Honda VTEC in a autograss car, jenvey throttle bodies, MS2, power output was very disappointing (around 200BHP).
The S2000 engine is a slight improvement on the VTEC, but not much. A good second hand S2000 engine will set you back £1500, the stock ECU is a pain to get running out of the car, so its megasquirt or omex.

On the other hand, a good blacktop zetec will set you back £250 MAX. A set of 45 jenveys and a megasquirt, high pressure fuel pump, regulator and filter £2000. The whole conversion around £2500.

The zetec will make at least 170BHP totally STOCK, pair of piper cams you are looking at 190bhp. Standard engine will rev to 7200 all day.

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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se7ensport

posted on 9/6/11 at 11:00 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
We did a Honda VTEC in a autograss car, jenvey throttle bodies, MS2, power output was very disappointing (around 200BHP).
The S2000 engine is a slight improvement on the VTEC, but not much. A good second hand S2000 engine will set you back £1500, the stock ECU is a pain to get running out of the car, so its megasquirt or omex.

On the other hand, a good blacktop zetec will set you back £250 MAX. A set of 45 jenveys and a megasquirt, high pressure fuel pump, regulator and filter £2000. The whole conversion around £2500.

The zetec will make at least 170BHP totally STOCK, pair of piper cams you are looking at 190bhp. Standard engine will rev to 7200 all day.


Just spent the last hour reading about s2000 engines and ECUs, doesn't sound as easy as initially thought; I'd hoped to be able to take full ecu and engine loom and drop it in without any mods... not the case apparently. Would have thought it should be possible to take the full loom and just drop the wires not needed?...

Zetec could work, but bhp gain at stock doesn't seem much over likely tuned pinto output, that said existing ecu, throttle bodies etc would be directly usable so cost isnt going to be £2k.

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DH2

posted on 10/6/11 at 09:00 AM Reply With Quote
Hi Alex.

I have been through a shortlist of engines to put in my Stylus recently.
Honda F20 (S2000) was on it, but it ain't going to be cheap, especially as it is a tall engine, I think it would be tricky to fit resulting in either a bonnet bulge or dry sump required. It's also not that light an engine.

If you want to do this on a budget, I think Zetec is your choice - there is experience of fitting these to Stylus on the forum too.

I'm going to be fitting a Zetec SE, but purely because I want something small and light, and fancy doing something different, I know it's not going to be a cheap exercise.

Or if you want to buy the Vauxhall lump out of mine (Phils old yellow car), that'll go straight in, you can have engine mounts, manifold, ECU & TBs, the lot! For less than your pinto rebuild is going to cost.

Dave

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franky

posted on 10/6/11 at 09:11 AM Reply With Quote
what about a bmw 328 engine, you can easily run on the standard ecu, its lighter than a pinto, makes 200bhp as standard and intake mods take it to 220bhp.

Oh, you can get them for £400 or less too

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se7ensport

posted on 10/6/11 at 06:31 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DH2
Hi Alex.

I have been through a shortlist of engines to put in my Stylus recently.
Honda F20 (S2000) was on it, but it ain't going to be cheap, especially as it is a tall engine, I think it would be tricky to fit resulting in either a bonnet bulge or dry sump required. It's also not that light an engine.

If you want to do this on a budget, I think Zetec is your choice - there is experience of fitting these to Stylus on the forum too.

I'm going to be fitting a Zetec SE, but purely because I want something small and light, and fancy doing something different, I know it's not going to be a cheap exercise.

Or if you want to buy the Vauxhall lump out of mine (Phils old yellow car), that'll go straight in, you can have engine mounts, manifold, ECU & TBs, the lot! For less than your pinto rebuild is going to cost.

Dave


Hi Dave

I know Phils car well; there is probably some of my nuckle skin still knocking around the engine bay

Which engine type is in it now?

I'm heavily researching the S2000, bonnet bulge is least of my worries at the moment as wiring seems to be the real kick in the wallet/nuts, I'm giving your engine some consideration as it would be an easy fix, would you include the gearbox? did you know that it's an opel box rather than type 9.

If you ever decide you want to sell the red hood please let me know, I'd hoped to get first refusal on it but it went with the car.


Cheers

Alex

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se7ensport

posted on 10/6/11 at 06:49 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by franky
what about a bmw 328 engine, you can easily run on the standard ecu, its lighter than a pinto, makes 200bhp as standard and intake mods take it to 220bhp.

Oh, you can get them for £400 or less too


Interesting suggestion, looks like a long engine once bellhousing is attached, what has your experiece been with transmision location and general engine spacing?

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DH2

posted on 10/6/11 at 07:12 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
I know Phils car well; there is probably some of my nuckle skin still knocking around the engine bay

Which engine type is in it now?

I'm heavily researching the S2000, bonnet bulge is least of my worries at the moment as wiring seems to be the real kick in the wallet/nuts, I'm giving your engine some consideration as it would be an easy fix, would you include the gearbox? did you know that it's an opel box rather than type 9.

If you ever decide you want to sell the red hood please let me know, I'd hoped to get first refusal on it but it went with the car.



It's still got the VX in it at the moment, I've barely touched the car since I bought it, just parked it up in storage whilst I finish off my current project.

I liked the idea of an F20, as I'm a bit of a Honda fanboy, but it just looked like hard work in terms of making it fit (I want to lose the bonnet bulge) and the cost to do so. Having said that, I'm probably going to end up spending more on the little SE to get some power out of it, but its small, light and reasonably tunable.

Yes I forgot to say the Manta gearbox is up for grabs too... and the propshaft to suit English axle... the axle is coming out too! Major rebuild is on the cards.

The hood may be up for grabs a little later down the line, so I'll try to remember to let you know if/when I've decided what to do in that respect.

Drop me a line if you want to know any more about the VX (though you may know more than me!).

Dave

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daniel mason

posted on 10/6/11 at 07:12 PM Reply With Quote
there is a few s2000 engines kits around now and up to now have not heard anyone be dissapointed!
not cheap though! ask me how i know that.
new clocks
new ecu,
air intake
exhaust manifold
wiring,
remote oil filter kit
new belt (once a/c removed)
evap system bypass
the list goes on. and you wont do it for £2k not a chance






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franky

posted on 10/6/11 at 08:17 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
quote:
Originally posted by franky
what about a bmw 328 engine, you can easily run on the standard ecu, its lighter than a pinto, makes 200bhp as standard and intake mods take it to 220bhp.

Oh, you can get them for £400 or less too


Interesting suggestion, looks like a long engine once bellhousing is attached, what has your experiece been with transmision location and general engine spacing?

They're not that long, the gearbox and housing are very short so the engine can sit really far back. Lots Of 4 pot cars have gearbox/bell housing on show, you don't on these! They sound great too.

It will need a new manifold but it's not the end of the world, you could have it in and running for £900 with exhaust. Also you can keep the factory diagnostic port for chasing faults/servicing

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se7ensport

posted on 10/6/11 at 08:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
there is a few s2000 engines kits around now and up to now have not heard anyone be dissapointed!
not cheap though! ask me how i know that.
new clocks
new ecu,
air intake
exhaust manifold
wiring,
remote oil filter kit
new belt (once a/c removed)
evap system bypass
the list goes on. and you wont do it for £2k not a chance


Plan would be to use the complete set up from a running car, seen a couple on ebay go for circa £2k, I'm happy to work with existing clocks, ecu, fuel pump, inlet manifold etc and removing extras not needed i.e. air pump, cat etc.

Prop cut and shut, exhaust manifold, cat bypass pipe, aircon belt and something with air pump will be costs in addition (didn't have evap on list). Total est of £2.5k realistic or am I missing something?

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se7ensport

posted on 10/6/11 at 08:39 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by franky
They're not that long, the gearbox and housing are very short so the engine can sit really far back. Lots Of 4 pot cars have gearbox/bell housing on show, you don't on these! They sound great too.

It will need a new manifold but it's not the end of the world, you could have it in and running for £900 with exhaust. Also you can keep the factory diagnostic port for chasing faults/servicing


Do you have any measurements for the engine and box?

Whats the deal ecu wise? is the engine on a seperate loom thats a straight forward drop in?

does the sump need baffeling?

Doing it for under a grand would be awesome; but it needs to fit without hacking transmission tunnel or hitting existing suspension or major chassis bars.

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franky

posted on 10/6/11 at 08:48 PM Reply With Quote
I can get you some Monday. The ecu is on the engine loom, on the engine connector 10 wires will get it running.
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DRC INDY 7

posted on 10/6/11 at 08:52 PM Reply With Quote
Having had 2 pinto engines in my car i was after more power......... having looked at zetec and duratec engines and discounting them on cost grounds to get the spec i wanted i bought a nissan 200sx sr20det car and used the engine gearbox wiring loom and ecu

Total cost of the conversion was £3000 the car cost £1600

but with buying the car selling the bits i did not need plus the pinto set up from the car the final cost to date is £300





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se7ensport

posted on 10/6/11 at 09:13 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DRC INDY 7
Having had 2 pinto engines in my car i was after more power......... having looked at zetec and duratec engines and discounting them on cost grounds to get the spec i wanted i bought a nissan 200sx sr20det car and used the engine gearbox wiring loom and ecu

Total cost of the conversion was £3000 the car cost £1600

but with buying the car selling the bits i did not need plus the pinto set up from the car the final cost to date is £300


Hell of an engine, I do like the japanese engine for power; RX7 was a passing thought... but n/a is for me, the RX8 has been ruled out as they seem to be suffering reliability issues.

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daniel mason

posted on 11/6/11 at 08:59 AM Reply With Quote
to get standard ecu and clocks to work you need a modifry wiring harness, (yellow jacket) to caliberate speedo unless your running s2000 diff and same size tyres.
just to let you know i got a quote of around £1000 for wiring alone with honda clocks and aftermarket ecu.
i then changed to a race technology dash 2 which cost a bit but simplified the wiring a lot.






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Simon

posted on 11/6/11 at 04:23 PM Reply With Quote
Rover V8.

ATB

Simon

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Volvorsport

posted on 11/6/11 at 05:51 PM Reply With Quote
volvo 2.5 5 cylinder , 170 hp - can get them upto 210hp on throttle bodies , and you can buy an adapter to go to a type 9 .

which you already have ?

ecu could be more expensive altho if you get the original ecu , it can be remapped quite easily .





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