ghostrain
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:11 PM |
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Would you build the older Locost or the Haynes Roadster
Am interested whether the new Haynes Roadster is a real advancement over the old Ron Champion vehicle.Has anyone finished or later stages of a Haynes
build to say whether it is the way to go...the old Champion vehicle is so well proven and parts easy to obtain I am tempted to build the older design.
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nitram38
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:16 PM |
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I haven't built a haynes roadster but that would be my choice.
I would base my choice on parts that are easier to source and having the self centering sorted...............
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Triton
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:22 PM |
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Roadster as Chris has done a grand job with the book..
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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3GEComponents
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:29 PM |
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I'd have to say Roadster, a number of changes make it a better chassis, and from a visual point of view i think it looks better proportioned to
the Sierra parts. A standard Locost with extra wide arches doesn't look right.
If i was building a Locost it would have to have a narrowed de-dion to look right.
Just my opinion.
Regards
John
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aerosam
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:31 PM |
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personally i think it may boil down to how much you are willing or feel able to fabricate.
Fabrication wise the older locost deign requires a bit less fabrication than the roadster - basically the chassis (can be bought as a pre-cut kit),
wishbones, can also be bought ready made, and some bits and bobs to the rear axle assembly.
The roadster requires IRS (just more wishbones really) but the just looking at the rear hub carriers was enough to scare me off!
So really the Locost is a simpler design so would probably be better suited to somebody who has never done anything like this before (another reason
I'm basing mine on it) but as Trton said, Chris Gibbs Book is very helpful, also Chris himself frequents both this and the Haynes roadster
forums so he's not far away if you need help or anything explained further.
At the end of the day it's your build, your car - do whatever YOU want to do - that's the beauty of building your own car from scratch.
Had enough of this dictatorship known as LCB. Gone elsewhere, not coming back. Kiss my ass ChrisW.
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ashg
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:31 PM |
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i went for the haynes. so far the build has been very easy due to the book being very good compared the old one (make sure you get the second edition
as it has 99.9% of the amendments in it).
there are plenty of people out there like 3ge triton armoto etc all producing loads of cool bits already. plus you have the backup that chris the
writer is on most of the kit car forums daily to help out and that mk engineering had a hand in its design 
the other big bonus for me was that other than the steering rack its all sierra parts meaning hubs brakes etc etc are much easier and cheeper to come
across/replace as time goes on.
A lot more thought has gone into the suspension mainly irs but remember the design has been tweeked and optimised using one of those magic box puter
things to improve bump steer and ackerman etc etc. also 3ge do an inboard shock/spring rocker suspension setup for it making it very appealing.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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MikeR
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:32 PM |
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Locost - its the right size!
I find all the larger cars (MK / MAC / etc) too big. They just don't (to me) look right.
Therefore Locost every single time. I'd then get de-dion rear axle. Its easy enough to do and if you need help with any dimension i'll
happily measure it.
I'd still get Chris's book as its excellent and any time you're wondering "hmmm, how should i do that" its 90% likely
its covered in chris's book.
Don't go large - go right! 
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MikeR
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:34 PM |
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p.s. i'm 6'3" and i fit with room to spare in the locost chassis. The trick is not to use one of those huge seats but to make one
out out foam and mould it to your body. You'll get a much comfier and better fit meaning you get more sensation out of the car.
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ashg
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:37 PM |
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Fabrication wise the older locost deign requires a bit less fabrication than the roadster - basically the chassis (can be bought as a pre-cut kit),
wishbones, can also be bought ready made, and some bits and bobs to the rear axle assembly.
The roadster requires IRS (just more wishbones really) but the just looking at the rear hub carriers was enough to scare me off!
you can buy pre fabricated wishbones and rear hubs from 3ge for the haynes
you can also buy the precut chassis pack for the haynes from armoto.
infact 3ge will sell you a ready made chassis if you dont want to weld anything!
so actually the haynes is just as easy fabrication wise as the locost and is in my opinion a much better design!
at the end of the day the irs was what made my mind up. yes you can do an irs locost but the haynes is easier as its all done step by step in the
book.
and as for size the haynes is only 2inch wider than the locost
[Edited on 12/11/08 by ashg]
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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aerosam
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| posted on 12/11/08 at 10:43 PM |
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you can buy pre fabricated wishbones and rear hubs from 3ge for the haynes
you can also buy the precut chassis pack for the haynes from armoto.
infact 3ge will sell you a ready made chassis if you dont want to weld anything!
so actually the haynes is just as easy fabrication wise as the locost and is in my opinion a much better design!
at the end of the day the irs was what made my mind up. yes you can do an irs locost but the haynes is easier as its all done step by step in the
book.
and as for size the haynes is only 2inch wider than the locost
[Edited on 12/11/08 by ashg]
Sorry Ash I thought ARmoto was supplying Locost chassis packs - I stand corrected!
Had enough of this dictatorship known as LCB. Gone elsewhere, not coming back. Kiss my ass ChrisW.
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RK
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 01:10 AM |
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If it were me I'd go Haynes because of donor availability and the lack of screwing around trying to make things fit that don't... With all
due respect though, the nosecone is not the best feature. I much prefer the Caterham or Locost ones.
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CaptainJosh
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 08:10 AM |
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I have gone the Locost route- I prefer the smaller car and when your trying to keep the weight down every little counts.
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maartenromijn
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 09:06 AM |
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I have started building my locost some 6 years ago. I find the Escort parts/ cortina uprights are difficult to source, hence the price is high. Same
goes for my 1.6 Kent engine. Cost me a lot of money and a month argueing with my wife!! 
If I wanted to build another one, it would be with IRS, more Sierra parts and a modern engine, possibly BEC...
Maarten
Edit: Note that I live in the Netherlands, so maybe that's why the Ford parts might be more difficult to source than in the UK.
[Edited on 13/11/08 by maartenromijn]
BLOG: http://thunderroad-super7.blogspot.com/
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Triton
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 09:16 AM |
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Too be honest I prefer the Caterham but they are silly money and as I'm a tad short and weigh nowt the Locost suits me better but everyone seems
to be getting bigger these days so Chris making the Roadster 2" wider was a canny move.
With the lads at 3GE doing inboard suspension it shows there is commitment from suppliers even though the Roadster is still the "new
kid".
The kit Industry needs to be doing the weird and wonderfull not just 7's and Cobras....I kinda like the Outspan Orange car...
Mark
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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Triton
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 09:19 AM |
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A road legal fibreglass pastie would be a giggle but intstead of beef and other weird stuff inside it would need to have a bike motor...
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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Hugh Paterson
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 10:31 AM |
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Alternative Skoff
Dont be nasty.....eat Marks Pastie swap u for a jock pie??? standard fare at footie matches up here???? Or even better a Killie pie, makes yer pasty
look way inferior
Shug
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Triton
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 11:11 AM |
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Shug,
Have you heard from Gig lately? Be nice to know how he is doing as not heard from him in ages.
Some pasties are good but some are really bad and safer to have a kit kat instead...
Mark
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 11:33 AM |
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Iv gone for haynes roadster because it is an advancement of the original locost and there are less errors in the book. Also you can use pretty much
any donor. Im using a Jag
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 11:35 AM |
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quote:
A lot more thought has gone into the suspension mainly irs but remember the design has been tweeked and optimised using one of those magic box puter
things to improve bump steer and ackerman etc etc. also 3ge do an inboard shock/spring rocker suspension setup for it making it very appealing.
The computer output is only as good as the input. 99% of CAD work uses the computer as an electronic drafting board, sometimes in 3d.
Not detracting from what Chris has produced, but the Haynes Roadster is still missing a few vital tubes in essential places.
The suspension geometry is not ideal, and a long way from proper current thinking, in track cars at least.
Ackerman? I'm sure Chris did his best.
Inboard suspension??? A waste of time and effort in a car like this. Adds weight and complexity that is totally unnecessary. Done properly( if that is
the applicable term), the front end needs a complete redesign for inboard suspension, and a lot more tubes, on top of those missing to start with. So
does the back.
A widened book car will do the same job, just add dedion. Then again, that's just a Roadster without a few wishbones in the back.
Look on the Aus yahoo clubbie resources for what changes need to be made.
Cheers,
Syd.
[Edited on 13/11/08 by Syd Bridge]
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chrisg
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| posted on 13/11/08 at 09:53 PM |
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Hi Syd,
Some interesting points there, just a few observations of my own.
I'm sure you're used to designing racing chassis, in which the ultimate is possible but in a project such as the Roadster I have to take
account of the sometimes opposing requirements of cost and complexity, in short I have to take account of a potential builder's budget and skill
level.
For road use, the chassis is adequately strong and this has been tested by FEA. It's not perfect, and no doubt it could be improved if, as I
said, you're looking for the ultiumate. I'd also reccomend the ADR modifications, whilst bearing in mind that just adding all the ADR
tubes would, in my opinion add a lot of unnecessary weight. If the builder is hoping to use their car to the extreme, hopefully they would be able to
get such modifications from the internet.
The same goes for the suspension, not the ultimate but, again, in my opinion, very good for road use. The Akerman is set by the use of Sierra
upright with the cast in steering arms, It would be difficult to alter this without moving to a bespoke upright - cost/complexity again.
The fact that people have been trying to design the perfect suspension for a hundred years and there is still no definative solution made it unlikely
that I would discover it!
Nobody's perfect and a book of this type is a very difficult undertaking, and I think we've done pretty well.
I apreciate the constructive comments and I'd love to meet up one day and talk suspensions, I find it utterly facinating, more than is healthy I
suppose.
Who knows we might come up with the perfect suspension and become billionaires!
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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RK
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| posted on 14/11/08 at 04:48 AM |
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Don't lose sleep over it: you can't design a copy of a 1959 car and expect to have 2008 F1 level suspension geometry. Although tossing in
a bit of CF never hurt anybody anywhere but the wallet.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 14/11/08 at 10:36 AM |
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F1's don't have 'suspension geometry' these days. Just bits that hold the wheels/hubs out in the open. It's 99% in
their tyres.
The Roadster...A few extra diagonals would weigh stuff all, not add to the complexity, and help prevent a Westfield type catastrophe.
Cheers,
Syd.
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JonBowden
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| posted on 14/11/08 at 12:37 PM |
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I've got to ask - what's a Westfield type catastrophe?
Jon
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MikeR
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| posted on 14/11/08 at 06:10 PM |
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it is rumoured that westfield may have made a car that has fractured around the diff mounting tubes. This car may then have been badly repaired by
westfield (and costing the ownwer for the bad repair when they originally said it would be free).
On the other hand welding a bit of what looked like angle iron (but may have been a bit of FEA designed strengthening - i don't know and
westfield never commented) onto the chassis and leaving hte original fractures open to the elements may have been the best possible way to repair the
car for long term durability. I'm not an expert in these things, just a city and guilds qualified welder.
I have heard it said that the owner was they VERY unhappy to later discover the front of the chassis tube on the top right completely cracked in two
and hte top left cracked.
Of course i can't point you to any threads as the westfield boardroom locked them.
approximately, aledgedly.
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