leemarkadams
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 05:52 PM |
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Update and STILL no spark! NOW WORKING!!!!!!!!!
Hello again all, had Ian (iiyama) round to help today and still not getting a spark, and checked the following:
Continuity of wires to ICU
TPS resistance
Pick up resistance
Can get the car to turn over and can get the fuel pump to run (bypassing the fuel pump/safety relay) but can not get a spark.
Have ran both black wires from the ICU to Earth (and checked), have power to the ICU so what else can it be?
The ICU does not appear to be producing a negative signal to the coil packs, so am I right in assuming one of the sensors is wrong?
(TPS/Crank/EXUP/Speed sensor). Would a failure of the EXUP stop the ICU from producing a spark?
I am wondering if the coil packs are faulty, if so how can you test them, as they seem to pass the resisitance tests etc?
Am also thinking of the pick up sensor (crankshaft sensor), but it seems to pass the resistance test so wonder if it has come loose inside the
cover?
Anything else anyone can think of?
Thanks (I will get it working at some stage!)
Lee
[Edited on 23/8/09 by leemarkadams]
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r1_pete
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:02 PM |
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Does the EXUP valve cycle when you first switch on? it should to prevent seizing, when mine stuck - a screw had dropped down and jammed it, the engine
would not start.
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iiyama
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:21 PM |
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How would you check the cycle? Is it audible? Or is there some other test that can be done?
Totally off topic but heres the linky for the matting bud!
http://www.parrs.co.uk/product-PARRS-Wide-Rib-Rubber-Matting-T073.htm
[Edited on 21/8/09 by iiyama]
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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adithorp
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:24 PM |
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Have you established whether it has the CycleLock fitted during your investigations? That is designed to stop the engine running.
Of the TPS/Crank/EXUP/Speed sensor only the crank sensor failure would prevent you having a spark but it wouldn't effect the fuel pump;
that'd still prime up initially. All the others might stop it starting/effect running, but not cause loss of spark and fuel pump.
Given that you've changed the ICU, start relay, fuel pump (I think).
That leaves the wiring, the cyclelock or an inertia switch/other security you don't know about hidden away somewhere.
Adrian
ps. it's hard to keep up with so many threads on the subject. It'd be easier for others to follow if you kept adding updates to the
original thread. I'd post this in the BEC section rather than Electrics.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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nstrug
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:27 PM |
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Are you sure that the immobiliser has been correctly bypassed? I found Rob Collingridge's site (www.robcollingridge.com) really useful.
A few questions:
1. Is the +ve feed to the coilpacks live? This is the red/black wire.
2. Is the engine properly earthed?
You say that the ECU is not sending trigger signals to the coilpacks - how are you checking this? You will probably need an oscilloscope to be really
sure.
Have you gone through the troubleshooting guide in the service manual? I can send this to you if you do not have it.
The only sensor failure that I think will cause total loss of spark is the crankshaft position sensor.
The EXUP valve has nothing to do with it - I took mine off and insulated the wires, and although the ECU throws an error, it has no impact on the fuel
or ignition functions of the ECU (which are the only ones you care about).
It could be the ECU but it seems unlikely
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iiyama
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:28 PM |
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Fuel pump is irrelevant to the loom at the moment due to bypassing the fuel pump relay, basically this is not controlled by the ECU/ICU at the
moment.
Continuity checks on the earth side of the ECU/ICU show that there is -ve which in turn means that the cycle lock is removed/bypassed. No inertia
switched that I could find. Side stand bypassed and clutch switch bypassed.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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iiyama
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nstrug
Are you sure that the immobiliser has been correctly bypassed? I found Rob Collingridge's site (www.robcollingridge.com) really useful.
A few questions:
1. Is the +ve feed to the coilpacks live? This is the red/black wire.
2. Is the engine properly earthed?
You say that the ECU is not sending trigger signals to the coilpacks - how are you checking this? You will probably need an oscilloscope to be really
sure.
Have you gone through the troubleshooting guide in the service manual? I can send this to you if you do not have it.
The only sensor failure that I think will cause total loss of spark is the crankshaft position sensor.
The EXUP valve has nothing to do with it - I took mine off and insulated the wires, and although the ECU throws an error, it has no impact on the fuel
or ignition functions of the ECU (which are the only ones you care about).
It could be the ECU but it seems unlikely
Watcha Nick!
+ve to the packs is definatly live, checked continuity and all was good, then checked for +12v and had this too.
Signal to the packs was checked by basically putting a light across the terminal to -ve. Probably not the most scientific way of doing things but this
seem to show that a signal was not being sent from the ECU.
Didnt check for -ve continuity to engine.... Doh! However the starter motor turns when asked so wouldnt this have -ve to it?
Couldnt see in the wiring diagram why the exup would have an impact....thanks for clearing that up!
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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worcestersauce
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:47 PM |
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I had a similar problem on my R1. Coils were live but not sparking.In the end I found an earth that was not made. This was one of the wires that
would have originally been on the bikes ignition(key) switch.
As soon as we earthed this it all fired up.
Andy
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worcestersauce
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 06:50 PM |
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Oh, and the exup valve will need to be connected (or suitably by-passed)as this sends a signal to the ECU
Andy
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nstrug
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 07:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
quote:
Originally posted by nstrug
Are you sure that the immobiliser has been correctly bypassed? I found Rob Collingridge's site (www.robcollingridge.com) really useful.
A few questions:
1. Is the +ve feed to the coilpacks live? This is the red/black wire.
2. Is the engine properly earthed?
You say that the ECU is not sending trigger signals to the coilpacks - how are you checking this? You will probably need an oscilloscope to be really
sure.
Have you gone through the troubleshooting guide in the service manual? I can send this to you if you do not have it.
The only sensor failure that I think will cause total loss of spark is the crankshaft position sensor.
The EXUP valve has nothing to do with it - I took mine off and insulated the wires, and although the ECU throws an error, it has no impact on the fuel
or ignition functions of the ECU (which are the only ones you care about).
It could be the ECU but it seems unlikely
Watcha Nick!
+ve to the packs is definatly live, checked continuity and all was good, then checked for +12v and had this too.
Signal to the packs was checked by basically putting a light across the terminal to -ve. Probably not the most scientific way of doing things but this
seem to show that a signal was not being sent from the ECU.
Didnt check for -ve continuity to engine.... Doh! However the starter motor turns when asked so wouldnt this have -ve to it?
Couldnt see in the wiring diagram why the exup would have an impact....thanks for clearing that up!
Hi Ian - sorry, should have realised that of course if the starter cranks then the plugs will be earthed correctly.
Your check for a trigger signal won't work. The way coilpacks work is that the trigger wire is normally held -ve, and then goes to open circuit
for a very brief interval to trigger the spark (like old-fashioned points).
You could try with a digital multimeter that has a continuity checker (with a beeper) but it may not be able to react fast enough and I suspect an
oscilloscope is the best way of checking.
I've really got a feeling that the cyclelock has not been properly bypassed. Have you ensured that pin 43 on the ECU is earthed?
Nick
Nick
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t16turbotone
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 07:29 PM |
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please try this...i have a theroy... take a +12vdc wire straight from battery to red/black wire on coil packs and try to start
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 07:51 PM |
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After My post on the original thread I have a couple of queries/some feedback.
If the fuel pump cannot/will not run with the original wiring setup then I'd suspect 2 things.
1 the Ecu is wrong ( but you've changed it )
2 you said before that the pump was priming ( with the std wiring ) But not running while cranking. Again this points to no spark signal ( safety in a
crash no spark equals no pump spewing fuel out of a burst pipe) Again an ecu problem.
3 Have you really bypassed the cycle lock properly ( i'd say yes if you had it running before)
4 The only sensor that will inhibit a spark will be the vr ( crank position sensor ) it's worth changing it for a try.
A bulb across the coil WILL NOT let you see if the ecu is giving you a signal to earth. An LED (12v) MAY let you see if there is a signal but as
already said a scope would be better/preferable.
Did it just stop working?? or did it stop working after you did something to it??
If the latter then backtrack and find out.
Is the sierra ign switch still working as it should? is there power at the coils/ecu while CRANKING there needs to be.
And Breathe LOL
hope you get it sorted out mate. It took me 4 months of tearing myself apart before I cured my megasquirt problems. You will get there eventually.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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adithorp
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 08:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
Fuel pump is irrelevant to the loom at the moment due to bypassing the fuel pump relay, basically this is not controlled by the ECU/ICU at the
moment.
Not irrelevant at all!
I know the pump is bypassed now. But before it was bypassed, the fault that caused the spark to disapear also caused the pump not to run. So the fault
has to be something that would affect both. There's no point looking for things that would just affect the spark (Unless he's really
unlucky and 2 seperate, untracable faults have appeared at the same time).
When you were initially testing the pump (when it first broke down) did it have a spark then.
There appears to be at least 3 circuits feeding through the CycleLock have you tested them all?
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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leemarkadams
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| posted on 21/8/09 at 10:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
Fuel pump is irrelevant to the loom at the moment due to bypassing the fuel pump relay, basically this is not controlled by the ECU/ICU at the
moment.
Not irrelevant at all!
I know the pump is bypassed now. But before it was bypassed, the fault that caused the spark to disapear also caused the pump not to run. So the fault
has to be something that would affect both. There's no point looking for things that would just affect the spark (Unless he's really
unlucky and 2 seperate, untracable faults have appeared at the same time).
When you were initially testing the pump (when it first broke down) did it have a spark then.
There appears to be at least 3 circuits feeding through the CycleLock have you tested them all?
Thanks once more, I did not initially test the spark on the day it hapenned as knew the fuel pump was not priming, so assumed it was that only. It was
only once I got a replacement fuel pump, and subsequently a relay, that I was unable to start the car. Whilst diagnosing the fault I noticed there
was no spark.
When you say 3 circuits through the cyclelock, what are they?
Thanks
Lee
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nstrug
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| posted on 22/8/09 at 08:30 AM |
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Hi Lee -
Rob has written how to disable the cyclelock here:
http://www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/build/2006/04/index.html
look for his entry on 3rd April.
If pin 43 on the ECU is not earthed, then nothing is going to happen.
Nick
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leemarkadams
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| posted on 22/8/09 at 11:44 AM |
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Which one is pin 43, is that the other black, as both blacks from the ECU are earthed.
Lee
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leemarkadams
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| posted on 22/8/09 at 05:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by t16turbotone
please try this...i have a theroy... take a +12vdc wire straight from battery to red/black wire on coil packs and try to start
Tried this, no change! I am getting 12V at the red/black terminals and it goes to 6/7V when cranking.
I have also just checked the coils again and they both pass the primary and secondary resistance tests.
Tomorrow I may just cut all the wiring out and hang myself with it from the garage rafters! On a more serious note I will have another play with it
tomorrow, as all it can be now is a signal of some sort to the ICU, as the fuel pump and the starter can both work (even if it is in a bypass way).
If I can do the same with the ICU then I will be a happy little bear
Anyway, off to the gym to get rid of some aggresion!
Any more suggestions welcomed!
Lee (Still smiling)
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 22/8/09 at 06:25 PM |
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Hi Lee
As I said at the start ,it would be best to get the original setup running as now your delving deeper into the wiring and creating more problems
without curing the original one, I would now suggest you get a s/hand harness and start from there, my money is still on a fuse somewhere
tony
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iiyama
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 06:55 AM |
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It definatly isnt a fuse. I'm 100% sure of that!
There is already 12v at the +ve side of the coils, so running 12v directly to these contacts is not going to change anything.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 11:27 AM |
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quote:
There is already 12v at the +ve side of the coils
Is it still there whilst cranking the engine on the starter though. that is what we are trying to find out??
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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leemarkadams
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 11:34 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
There is already 12v at the +ve side of the coils
Is it still there whilst cranking the engine on the starter though. that is what we are trying to find out??
When I crank the engine it goes from 12V+ to about 5/6 volts......
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 11:50 AM |
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quote:
When I crank the engine it goes from 12V+ to about 5/6 volts......
Seems quite low that IMHO (Bike Battery??)I'd have expected around 10volts. Can you try to power the ecu/coils with a separate feed from a
separate battery ( join the Battery earths to together or to the chassisto see if it runs?? It's possible that some of the relays could drop out
at such low voltages
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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leemarkadams
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 01:05 PM |
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Well, after a few more hours on the car I took the coil pick up out and noticed it was a bit loose, so refitted it and tightened it up...........now
getting a spark!!! Also refitted a few earth wires too as they were a little bit suspect.
So now I have got it working I am going to wire in a fuel pump switch and then tidy up all the wiring, as it is a 'snake's wedding'
in there!
Feel a bit happier now, hoping to take it out later today now!
Still confused as to what would have caused the fuel pump and relay to go, but still at least there is now real progress!
Lee
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Guinness
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 01:14 PM |
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Nice one!
Mike
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 23/8/09 at 04:22 PM |
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out of curiosity does the fuel pump now work on the original wiring, glad you got there in the end. it's amazing what can vibrate loose at a
trackday
tony
[Edited on 23/8/09 by mad-butcher]
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