ChrisW
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posted on 21/9/09 at 05:16 PM |
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Brake calipers without dust seals - opinions?
Hi All
Thinking about buying a brake kit for my daily driver, based around Wilwood calipers that don't have external dust seals.
Now, there seems to be plenty of Internet wisdom that states that without the dust seals the calipers will seize. I've had the same opinion
spouted to me by people who see my XR2, which also runs Wilwood calipers. I've never had a problem with them, but I've only changed the
pads once.
I raised the question with the supplier who came back with a long response about why there was no problem with them.
Anyway, to get to the point, I wondered what everyone's opinions were from here. Is the salesman telling me the truth or just spouting
marketing bull%$&t? Or should I believe the Internet experts, present company excluded of course!
His response is below for your perusal.
Cheers, Chris
quote:
Hi Chris,
Yeah, there are a lot of uninformed people making statements of fact on forums... Most people seeing statements in writing believe them to be true so
it doesn't take long for a factoid to become gospel truth. I've been dealing with Wilwood and their 'no boot calipers' for 22
years and here's my opinion based on my experience:
Road grime, dirt and especially moisture can corrode production type caliper pistons leading to premature failure of the piston seals rendering the
caliper inoperable.
Vehicle manufacturers typically design their products around a minimum criteria list which almost never includes special materials for components such
as caliper pistons. Many production style caliper pistons are therefore aluminum or other easily corrodible metal for obvious reasons, not least of
which is cost. It is less expensive by far to make aluminum pistons and rubber boots than to make stainless steel pistons for example. A huge
percentage of production car calipers HAVE to have dust boots or they may not last to the end of the warranty.
Aside from some of the obvious weight and capacity drawbacks of production calipers, dust boots can be a hazard to high performance drivers. Brake
components are designed to convert all that motion to heat energy and then dissipate that heat. The heating and cooling cycle occurs with higher
frequency under spirited, or race driving conditions where it is not unusual to develop enough heat to make rotors glow red hot. Radiant and conducted
heat developed under hard driving conditions can easily heat the calipers to the point where the brake fluid boils and the boots burn. Dust boots are
not installed on true racing calipers.
The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots, build pistons from good quality, non-corroding
stainless steel and make sure the caliper bores are anodized. We have been supplying such calipers for high performance street and race use for over
20 years without complaint. Our experience has been that companies who do build aftermarket calipers with dust boots make an issue of this fact to
justify the exorbitant cost of their products.
If we examine the dynamics of caliper function we see that the pistons actually, stay pretty well where they are and the brake dust coats that part
which protrudes from the caliper body. A typical brake application cycle sees about 0.20 mm (1/5 mm) of travel per piston. There is about 3 or 4mm of
piston bore outboard of the hydraulic "O" ring before the piston sees the outside atmosphere. In that area the clearance between the
piston and bore is around 0.075mm. It takes a pretty small dust particle to travel all the way to the hydraulic O-ring and when it gets there
it's typically too small to create any real havoc. So, you get dirt building up on the exposed part of the pistons and that's about it.
Problems develop when it's time to change pads and your production oriented brake technician simply presses the pistons back in with a clamp and
shoves all that dirt into the cylinder past the seal. The "trick" is to scrub the piston protrusion with a stiff tooth brush and soapy
solution, then blow dry BEFORE you shove them back into the caliper...
The down side is that it takes and extra 30 minutes (on a bad day) to change pads which you may have to do every 50,000 km or so on a street driven
vehicle. Amortized over a year or two that's not a big chunk of your life or your paycheck.
The upside is that a regular guy can afford to purchase a serious brake upgrade that works every bit as well as that $3500 Alcon or AP system
he's been looking at. And if he really decides to drive all that horsepower he ‘shoehorned’ into the engine bay he won't be retiring early
(as the competition may) because his dust boots are on fire....
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clairetoo
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posted on 21/9/09 at 05:37 PM |
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Sounds plausible to me .............. but how come M16 calliper's start seizing as soon as the dust seals deteriorate ?
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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MikeRJ
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posted on 21/9/09 at 06:16 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by clairetoo
Sounds plausible to me .............. but how come M16 calliper's start seizing as soon as the dust seals deteriorate ?
Because they don't have stainless pistons and anodised bores?
I was extremely dubious about the longevity of the Willwood calipers without dust seals, but there are loads of these calipers used on competition and
road cars now, and it simply doesn't seem to be a problem.
A friend of mine uses them on his 205 rally car, and whilst they don't get the kind of mileage a road car would give them, they do have to
suffer pretty bad conditions. The disk are glowing on some of the stages then there are dusty gravel stages one week followed by wet tarmac stages
the next, and then often sat in a garage for weeks (or months after the usual engine failures!) and they have never seized or caused any problems.
Probably the most reliable bit of the entire car now I think of it.
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mark chandler
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posted on 21/9/09 at 06:42 PM |
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Stainless pistons, no need for external seals.
When racing my landrovers better off losing the dust seals as they just held in the dirt, bin the cheaper crome pistons for stainless and good to go.
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flak monkey
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posted on 21/9/09 at 06:50 PM |
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My wilwoods have done several 1000 miles and no probs to date.
They dont have dust seals. As long as you keep them clean you shouldnt have any problems.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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MikeR
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posted on 21/9/09 at 06:51 PM |
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suppose the 'test' is to do a poll and people with non booted calipers to post..
err, how about
booted and not seized
booted and seized
non booted ali and seized
non booted ali and not seized
non booted stainless and seized
non booted stainless and not seized
We'll then get actual locost data to back up his claims (or not)
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tomblyth
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posted on 21/9/09 at 08:20 PM |
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why not use a british product!
hi pec's have dust seals!!
http://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/
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alistairolsen
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posted on 21/9/09 at 08:42 PM |
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because Hi-Spec calipers are poo and their after sales service is worse!
My Build Thread
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arrow-engineering
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posted on 21/9/09 at 08:50 PM |
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hi spec
agreed
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ChrisW
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posted on 21/9/09 at 11:54 PM |
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...and all the chavs have them on their Saxo's!
Chris
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