mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:33 PM |
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Undrivable audi R8
Just seen an Audi R8 have all its electronic driver aids switched off making it undriverable........
Demonstrated by the channel five gadget show
I Dont like things that meddle with my driving.
The handling of my new transit is so crap it under steers like a b1tch. It has to have the electronics just to keep it on the road.
So the question has to be asked.....are the electronic driver aids covering up for poor design in the suspension and handling departments.
If the design for the suspension and handling is good enough surely these electronics should enhance the drive rather than make up for poor design.
Discuss...whats your view on this.
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cloudy
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:36 PM |
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The guy couldn't drive - there was no countersteer visible in any slide... and while "trying" to get back on track his steering was
on full lock. Either he's an epically rubbish driver, or it was set up.
www.warnercars.com
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cd.thomson
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:38 PM |
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the eurofighter is unflyable without its electronic aids as its designed to be constantly on an aerodynamic "knife edge" for
manoveurability. The computers allow it to be more fantastic than it could be under human control alone. Controls have to be dummed down to allow for
human limitations, so why not let a computer handle the fiddly bits?
I think computers are allowing for much much more precise and finicky design and engineering features which humans dont have the ability or capacity
to control.
ECU enhanced driving, rather than ECU replacement driving.
ETA - saw you on scraphead challenge cloudy.. very fetching moustache/wetsuit combo
[Edited on 12/10/09 by cd.thomson]
Craig
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:50 PM |
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Didn't they have to pull the first batch of Audi TTs because the motoring journalists found them to be too tail happy when pushed to the limit
(of their skill?) 
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stevebubs
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme Kermit
Didn't they have to pull the first batch of Audi TTs because the motoring journalists found them to be too tail happy when pushed to the limit
(of their skill?)
Had to retrofit a "wing" on the rear end
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Guinness
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:57 PM |
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We used to have a 130 horse LWB Merc Sprinter. One day the traction control light came on, meaning it had failed.
It was very, very easy to provoke into reallllyyy lairy drifts round corners / roundabouts etc.
Was definantly a safety feature that covered up a very tail happy van.
Mike
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Agriv8
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
the eurofighter is unflyable without its electronic aids as its designed to be constantly on an aerodynamic "knife edge" for
manoveurability. The computers allow it to be more fantastic than it could be under human control alone. Controls have to be dummed down to allow for
human limitations, so why not let a computer handle the fiddly bits?
I think computers are allowing for much much more precise and finicky design and engineering features which humans dont have the ability or capacity
to control.
ECU enhanced driving, rather than ECU replacement driving.
ETA - saw you on scraphead challenge cloudy.. very fetching moustache/wetsuit combo
[Edited on 12/10/09 by cd.thomson]
I agree computers are there to make thigs safer.
The skill needed to drive a 500 bhp car to the limit is beyond most. but average jo wants a 500 bhp supper car but imagine if the manufacturer didnt
put the aids on - who is going to sart getting sued ? in 'This day and age ' of it wasnt my fault !!
Just my 20p worth ( allowing for infaltion )
regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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mookaloid
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
The guy couldn't drive - there was no countersteer visible in any slide... and while "trying" to get back on track his steering was
on full lock. Either he's an epically rubbish driver, or it was set up.
Totally agree 
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:09 PM |
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Maybe it's a bit of both, given a diesel mondeo is the fastest car I've driven so far no doubt me+R8+corner=R8 wrapped round tree
Probably with driver aids or not tbh!
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bassett
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 09:14 PM |
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I used to hate them making cars more complicated,unreliable and slower although after a close call at the weekend where i almost dicked it into a tree
il think again before planting 270bhp through pirelli ditch finders.
My MNR Blog Updated Jan 2010 - Track Day Prep Begins!
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 09:25 PM |
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Well everyone saw that Prodrive P1 on Top Gear... Iirc the Stig used the traction control
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A1
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 10:26 PM |
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i really dont like electronic aids.
the best cars are those like nobles that have just been designed and set up well.
but i suppose people like having a button that says 'sport' to push. kinda like recaro seats, wannabe diffusers, brembo brakes...(think
hot hatches)
they should spend the money doing rear or 4wd. (think focus st rs or whatever its called)
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RK
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 01:35 AM |
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I never turn the traction control off on my A4, simply because I'm used to driving with it on. It is very hairy on a slidy winter road without
it.
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t.j.
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 06:45 AM |
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I think we just must get used to it.
If we want to go on steer by wire, drive by wire, electronic brakes, 4 electronic motor's in the wheels, forming a train by cars on the highway
etc..
Planes are all over us and don't fly without the electronics. As long as they are made by the right engineers i see no problem.
And no, it won't be locostbrew possible there imo.
Please feel free to correct my bad English, i'm still learning. Your Dutch is awfull! :-)
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Peteff
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 09:19 AM |
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Mercedes A class springs to mind here. Didn't they fail a simple swerve (elk test) and have to be redesigned with computer control to pass
safety tests ?
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Project7
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 09:58 AM |
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I didnt see the program which is a shame, but if a car is designed around the electronics with its clever 4 wheel drive system then it stands to
reason that it wont handle as well with it turned off.
It probably understeered because power wasnt being sent to the optimum end of the car/wheel, as it would with the electronics turned on.
For me both ways are good, the pure driving experience of our Sevens (or nobles/elises) or having electronics make sure everything is at its optimum
(Skyline/Evos).
What i dont really like on 'sports cars' is various settings, there should be one setting of 'fast' - knowing that i'm
carrying round weight so the car can have a softer setting doesnt do it for me.
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smart51
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 10:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Mercedes A class springs to mind here. Didn't they fail a simple swerve (elk test) and have to be redesigned with computer control to pass
safety tests ?
Kind of. They lowered (and stiffened) the suspension so there was less lean. They fitted narrower front tyres so there was less front grip (it
rolled because the front gripped so hard it tripped over itself). they changed the suspension geometry to reduce front end grip. They lowered the
front seats to lower the centre of gravity.
To counter all the understeer they added mechanically, they added ESP to make the car go round corners instead of ploughing straight on.
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smart51
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 10:07 AM |
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My Peugeot 107 grips in the corners more than you'd expect from a small basic box with narrow tyres. The grip levels hardly change in wet
weather and it seems to pull through snow better than those around me (though I put this down to driver skill, obviously ). The car has cornering
stability control and I suspect that its cornering ability and especially its wet cornering ability are linked to it putting the inside rear brake on
to reign in the understeer. The thing is, it is seamless in its operation and the car feels like it is gripping the road really well. Who
can't like that?
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JUD
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 10:35 AM |
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Personally my tin-top is for A-B and the MK is for driving.
I would sooner have all the driving aids for journeys whose purpose is arriving, rather than enjoying.
---------------------
MK Indy Blade
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MikeR
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 11:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
My Peugeot 107 grips in the corners more than you'd expect from a small basic box with narrow tyres. The grip levels hardly change in wet
weather and it seems to pull through snow better than those around me (though I put this down to driver skill, obviously ). The car has cornering
stability control and I suspect that its cornering ability and especially its wet cornering ability are linked to it putting the inside rear brake on
to reign in the understeer. The thing is, it is seamless in its operation and the car feels like it is gripping the road really well. Who
can't like that?
Whilst I agree it sounds great and would love it on my car .... i can think of one downside, when you do run out of traction your going a lot faster
into the scenery.
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smart51
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 12:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
My Peugeot 107 grips in the corners more than you'd expect from a small basic box with narrow tyres. The grip levels hardly change in wet
weather and it seems to pull through snow better than those around me (though I put this down to driver skill, obviously ). The car has cornering
stability control and I suspect that its cornering ability and especially its wet cornering ability are linked to it putting the inside rear brake on
to reign in the understeer. The thing is, it is seamless in its operation and the car feels like it is gripping the road really well. Who
can't like that?
Whilst I agree it sounds great and would love it on my car .... i can think of one downside, when you do run out of traction your going a lot faster
into the scenery.
not in a 107 you're not It doesn't do "a lot faster"
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A1
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| posted on 16/10/09 at 10:29 AM |
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i really dont like the whole thing of soft settings then 'press the sport button' its just so tacky and twee. if you want a comfy car, get
one, if you want a sports car, get one, they dont work as the same thing.
plus think how much cheaper our cars would be if they werent designing expensive software for them all the time.
then you get on to how the software costing thousands is making it much harder for small garages to do work on them...
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smart51
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| posted on 16/10/09 at 10:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by A1
think how much cheaper our cars would be if they werent designing expensive software for them all the time.
Probably not actually. Software to fix a problem is a one off design fee. Hardware to fix a problem is a one off design fee plus a per part fee.
For manufacture in high volumes, a software solution is cheaper than a hardware solution. Remember, car manufacturers only do cheap.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 16/10/09 at 03:44 PM |
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Regarding driver aids.
We may all say that we would prefer if they weren't there, but you don't have to do much searching in here to find an "oh no, I
binned it " thread.
Lightweight car, mental power delivery, accident.
If we're all honest, performance cars need to be treated with an awfull lot of respect / skill.
If you don't have the skill, you need the respect.
My last couple of roads cars haven't had electronic gubbins, although tI believe the 156 has EBD and brakes which are ridiculously over
servoed.
My A class, it was very easy to provoke flashing lights on the dashboard.
My Passat 4motion had permanent proper Quattro and that also had flashing lights if you prodded it hard enough with a stick.
Horses for courses.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 17/10/09 at 07:42 AM |
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All I've got is abs, but that's been great for not sliding into the middle of a roundabout when it's wet
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