Bumble
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 posted on 4/8/10 at 10:38 PM |
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Misfiring Problem.......Help Please (Lengthy)!!
Ok, I'll apologise now for the long winded nature of the thread but I want to get this all off my chest in one go.
I have a 1.8 Silvertop Zetec with R6 TB Injection. I am running MS 1 V3.0 (Alpha N) bought from Phil at Extra EFi and supplied with a base map that
should start the engine.
After completing all necessary wiring checks and following Phil's instructions to the "T" I fired the beasty up and after realising
I'd plumbed the fuel into the injector rail the wrong way round she eventually started albeit on only a couple of cylinders and coughing,
spluttering and banging incessantly.
After some advice from here and further checks no. 4 cyl was definately not getting fuel so Injector removed, cleaned up with Carb cleaner (and WD40)
whilst energising On/Off and tried again. This time sounded much better and even idled although still sounded lumpy.
I enlisted the advice of Big_Wasa at this point and checked various other things out. Firstly I checked spark to all 4 cyls.......all sparked well
out of engine. Secondly, checked all 4 injectors.....all atomising and spraying fuel. Next I swapped all 4 plugs, HT Leads and coil pack for a
different set (borrowed from my wifes focus). NO CHANGE!!
With engine idling if you remove HT lead to Cyl 1 no change at all. If you remove 2 , 3 or 4 engine stalls instantly. Also, if you run from cold for
1 approx 1 min the primaries are too hot to touch on 2, 3 & 4 yet 1 you can hold easily.
Wasa has now suggested compression test and ensure TB's are balanced. My Dad is confident he can balance the TB's by ear with his magic
bag of bones and rubber pipe which he reckons he's used to balances many Carbs before (don't worry he also has a gauged vac tester) so
I'll do both this weekend but have any of you experienced similar / got anything further to add or advice to offer?
Could it be faulty Hydraulic lifters / tappets?? Any way of checking this?
Also anyone got a similar set up and can let me see their MS Map??
Thanks as usual to Wasa for his help thus far and I'm confident LCB Members will help sort this out.
Thanks,
Matt
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Agriv8
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 06:43 AM |
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a long shot but worth asking - When you tested spark on no 1 was this while it was cranking over on the starter motor ?
I would sugest if the engine will run on the other 3 attach spark plug lead 1 to a spare plug and take a look while the engine is running.
I know on efi on my v8 sparks under starting is from some startup configurations and sparks while running are supplied from the map table.
regards agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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r1_pete
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 07:27 AM |
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Plugs 1 and 4 fire off the same coil, try swapping them over but as you've tried alternatives thats a long shot.
R6 TB's, are they the ones with vacuum sliders? if so check the movement of the slider and that the diaphragm is sealed to the vacuum chamber
and lid.
You don't say whether the offending plug is wet or dru when you remove it? Dry would indicate a fuelling problem, wet an ignition fault.
Have you tried swapping the injector electrical connections round to see if that moves the problem?
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 07:51 AM |
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I've tried this and plug sparks vigorously out of block when engine is running.
quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
a long shot but worth asking - When you tested spark on no 1 was this while it was cranking over on the starter motor ?
I would sugest if the engine will run on the other 3 attach spark plug lead 1 to a spare plug and take a look while the engine is running.
I know on efi on my v8 sparks under starting is from some startup configurations and sparks while running are supplied from the map table.
regards agriv8
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 07:54 AM |
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I've swapped leads1&4 at coilpack and makes no difference. Plug is wet when it comes out.
The slider moves when you rev the engine.....how do I check the diaphragm etc?
Thanks,
Matt
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
Plugs 1 and 4 fire off the same coil, try swapping them over but as you've tried alternatives thats a long shot.
R6 TB's, are they the ones with vacuum sliders? if so check the movement of the slider and that the diaphragm is sealed to the vacuum chamber
and lid.
You don't say whether the offending plug is wet or dru when you remove it? Dry would indicate a fuelling problem, wet an ignition fault.
Have you tried swapping the injector electrical connections round to see if that moves the problem?
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iank
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:00 AM |
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Have you tried swapping the spark plugs between 1 and 4. If the problem moves it's a knackered spark plug.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:10 AM |
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I've swapped plugs and borrowed 4 from my wifes focus (which are the same).....neither made any difference.
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Have you tried swapping the spark plugs between 1 and 4. If the problem moves it's a knackered spark plug.
[Edited on 5/8/10 by Bumble]
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:15 AM |
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I would start looking closley at the injectors, they may be spraying out fuel but if the cone pattern isnt correct then the fuel will not burn, try
swapping the injectors around and see if the problem moves to another cylinder. If it does then you need the injectors refurbishing or replacing. It
is a common problem with injectors
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:19 AM |
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I've swapped the injectors.......no change.
quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
I would start looking closley at the injectors, they may be spraying out fuel but if the cone pattern isnt correct then the fuel will not burn, try
swapping the injectors around and see if the problem moves to another cylinder. If it does then you need the injectors refurbishing or replacing. It
is a common problem with injectors
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:44 AM |
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Compression check next from the sounds of it, was it running well before EFI upgrade???
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:52 AM |
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I've never heard it run before.....acquired it along with a part build. Has not run for well over a year and been drained of oil for much of
that time. Also, was inverted on an engine stand for a couple of weeks......not sure if that has any bearing on things?
quote:
Originally posted by Bluemoon
Compression check next from the sounds of it, was it running well before EFI upgrade???
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Agriv8
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bumble
I've tried this and plug sparks vigorously out of block when engine is running.
quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
a long shot but worth asking - When you tested spark on no 1 was this while it was cranking over on the starter motor ?
I would sugest if the engine will run on the other 3 attach spark plug lead 1 to a spare plug and take a look while the engine is running.
I know on efi on my v8 sparks under starting is from some startup configurations and sparks while running are supplied from the map table.
regards agriv8
In that case I would getting a timming light on each lead onto crank pully is it flashing at the same point on the crank rotation? if it is - likley
compresion
[Edited on 5/8/10 by Agriv8]
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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r1_pete
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:59 AM |
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Try swapping the injector plug with another on the same bank.
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02GF74
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 09:25 AM |
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can you fit a colour tune instead of plug one?
of one of these puppies?
I've seen cheaper versions - an yeloow/orange transaprent cap that fits onto the plug.
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02GF74
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 09:27 AM |
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here you go: 1/2 way down page.
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 09:35 AM |
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What will that do for me other than tell me it's sparking??
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
can you fit a colour tune instead of plug one?
of one of these puppies?
I've seen cheaper versions - an yeloow/orange transaprent cap that fits onto the plug.
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02GF74
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 09:57 AM |
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it will make you wallet lighter too. 
just because the plug fires out of the engine, it does not necessarily mean it fires when fitted due to higher compression and air/fuel mix
environment it is in.
... but it does sound from what you describe that the plug fires out of the engine but not in, this would confirm that for sure.
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hughpinder
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 12:15 PM |
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Since you've tried all the plugs/leads from another car, I'd rule them out. As already said 1 and 4 spark together but cylinder 4
isn't giving a problem. Some fuel is getting in, as the plug comes out wet. Could you have a stuck valve? This would restrict the fuel /air mix
from getting into the cylinder, even if its a stuck exhaust valve (as the last charge cant get out). Take the plugs out again, cam cover off, and
rotate the engine using a spanner and check all the valves move.
Regards
Hugh
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Garyd
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 12:35 PM |
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Hi
I had the same problem on a carbed engine, I tried everything but it eventually turned out to be the inlet manifold gasket not sealing around number
1. If all else fails it could be worth thinking about.
Gary
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 12:36 PM |
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Ok, done that and observed all the hydraulic lifters going up and down happily enough. Doesn't necessarily indicate that a valve isn't
stuck though (if I undertsnad how they work correctly that is).........
quote:
Originally posted by hughpinder
Since you've tried all the plugs/leads from another car, I'd rule them out. As already said 1 and 4 spark together but cylinder 4
isn't giving a problem. Some fuel is getting in, as the plug comes out wet. Could you have a stuck valve? This would restrict the fuel /air mix
from getting into the cylinder, even if its a stuck exhaust valve (as the last charge cant get out). Take the plugs out again, cam cover off, and
rotate the engine using a spanner and check all the valves move.
Regards
Hugh
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Bumble
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 12:39 PM |
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How the hell did you discover that??
quote:
Originally posted by Garyd
Hi
I had the same problem on a carbed engine, I tried everything but it eventually turned out to be the inlet manifold gasket not sealing around number
1. If all else fails it could be worth thinking about.
Gary
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hughpinder
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 12:44 PM |
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I dont know if the valves have to move when the caps do - you can see the valve stems if you take off the inlet/exhaust manifolds but that seems a lot
of work (gives the chance to make sure the manifolds are properly sealed when you refit them I suppose.
regards
Hugh
[Edited on 5/8/10 by hughpinder]
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RichardK
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 01:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bumble
How the hell did you discover that??
quote:
Originally posted by Garyd
Hi
I had the same problem on a carbed engine, I tried everything but it eventually turned out to be the inlet manifold gasket not sealing around number
1. If all else fails it could be worth thinking about.
Gary
Squirt carb cleaner or (wd40 apparently also works) around the area whilst its idling, revs will pick up slightly if it's sucking in that carb
cleaner through a leak.
From reading above though dont think it'll be that, my guess would go for poor compresssion on that cyl.
Cheers
R
[Edited on 5/8/10 by RichardK]
Gallery updated 11/01/2011
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Garyd
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 05:17 PM |
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I was told to check it by a mate who had the same problem, Gasket looked ok when I removed it but fitted a new one and problem solved. Luck more than
anything else as I hadn't seen my mate for a while and he turned up as I was just about to set fire to the car
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paulf
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| posted on 5/8/10 at 08:34 PM |
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I found that if the Tbs are not well balanced then at tick over it is possible to have not enough air and to much fuel on one cylinder leading to a
wet or sooty plug.
If you are not certain of the balance try just opening that cylinders butterfly a small amount extra.On tick over there is only a very small amount of
fuel flowing and a small adjustment in air flow can have a large effect on AFR.
Paul
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