Printable Version | Subscribe | Add to Favourites
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: Anyone gone small with a supercharger?
coyoteboy

posted on 22/7/11 at 03:23 PM Reply With Quote
Anyone gone small with a supercharger?

Been scouting around the net looking at lots of peoples ideas and one I came across, and seems to be being reflected by current motor manufacturer tech, is to go small and supercharge (or turbo). VFR750 plus 1 bar of boost? Should see ~200hp if done right and still only weigh in around 70kg total engine weight? Clutch might be of concern I suppose, but the parts are cheap enough to experiment?
View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
ReMan

posted on 22/7/11 at 03:51 PM Reply With Quote
Definatly,
This will be my winter project
Having difficulty ascertaining what turbo unit to use though?





www.plusnine.co.uk
∙،. ˘≈ﺣ

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member   ReMan 's ICQ status
daviep

posted on 22/7/11 at 04:34 PM Reply With Quote
Mitubishi TD04 turbo from a subaru, volvo or saab seems to be a popular turbo to use with bike engines.





A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
scootz

posted on 22/7/11 at 05:14 PM Reply With Quote
I'd be skeptical of doubling any engine power output by just whacking a blower on it and not having to do something (expensive) to the internals.





It's Evolution Baby!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
ReMan

posted on 22/7/11 at 05:41 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Mitubishi TD04 turbo from a subaru, volvo or saab seems to be a popular turbo to use with bike engines.


Ohh my poor Saab!





www.plusnine.co.uk
∙،. ˘≈ﺣ

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member   ReMan 's ICQ status
Bare

posted on 22/7/11 at 05:58 PM Reply With Quote
TD04 is Wayyyy too big...IMO (does depend on it's setup turbine ratios tho) It boosts a 2.3 litre Saab engine at 3000 rpms Just imagine how many Rpms it will take before the 750cc lump generates enough Ex gas pressure to power the thing adequately.. 9/10,000 Perhaps?
Smaller turbos generate boost earlier... often that's useful :-)
It also takes a dedicated Boost/ignition control system before one can 'safely' boost past 7/8psi.. 10 psi requires an Intercooler too.
Lots easier to say : slap on a turbo.. than actually do it :-)



[Edited on 22/7/11 by Bare]

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
Rocket_Rabbit

posted on 22/7/11 at 06:13 PM Reply With Quote
Excellent post right there.

Easier to use a thou than muck about with a turbo.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
daniel mason

posted on 22/7/11 at 06:38 PM Reply With Quote
what about those newish vw engines. turbo + supercharged?
is there a rwd conversion for these? reasonable power and still small and light






View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 22/7/11 at 08:06 PM Reply With Quote
Totally agree a normal car charger would be too large, though there are a few off machines like small 1.2 and 1.4 turbos which boost the stock car to -6psi from 2500rpm, these should be better suited to a bike engine. Or maybe something like the small turbo off a scooby twin turbo (legacy GTB?).

Of course 'charging requires standalone engine management and re-mapping, and an intercooler - these are basic requirements for any turbocharging project, the unknown is more the level of boost that's usable on a stock internals, whether the torque increase will trash the crank/clutch/gearbox and to what degree.

Small high power density car engines are very very pricey. Items like the 1.8t are not that light and not that powerful, especially when the 'box is added. IF your engine costs 100 you can mash a few learning. If it is just ultimately weak and unusable then even bashing through 3 of them is a waste of time and effort.

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
daviep

posted on 22/7/11 at 09:13 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
TD04 is Wayyyy too big...IMO (does depend on it's setup turbine ratios tho) It boosts a 2.3 litre Saab engine at 3000 rpms Just imagine how many Rpms it will take before the 750cc lump generates enough Ex gas pressure to power the thing adequately.. 9/10,000 Perhaps?
Smaller turbos generate boost earlier... often that's useful :-)
It also takes a dedicated Boost/ignition control system before one can 'safely' boost past 7/8psi.. 10 psi requires an Intercooler too.
Lots easier to say : slap on a turbo.. than actually do it :-)



[Edited on 22/7/11 by Bare]


Regardless of what you think the TD04 has been used succesfully many times on bike engines although it is usually 1000cc plus engines.

One of the nice benefits is that compressor and turbine housings and CHRA be orientated to any position to aid packaging.

Davie





A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 22/7/11 at 10:58 PM Reply With Quote
If you watch many of the homebrew turbo bike vids online they seem to be dead until about 9Krpm and then wheelie to the redline, so it sort of supports his comments.

My question is how do so many of the turbo bike projects get away with 10.5:1 CR and run 15psi of boost?

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Steve Hignett

posted on 23/7/11 at 01:34 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Regardless of what you think the TD04 has been used succesfully many times on bike engines although it is usually 1000cc plus engines.
Davie


How dare you have a clear concisive thought based on fact in this thread...

Shame on you Davie................

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
crafty

posted on 23/7/11 at 01:52 AM Reply With Quote
I'm just about to put an intercooled Rotrex system on my R1 powered car. I'm not the first to do this.

Im using a 0.52ml Cometic gasket to lower compression.

The car already has Power Commander 3 for fuel - I may upgrade to PC5 with Autotune, but not convinced I need that.

I have a Safeguard knock control system, which individually retards cylinders.





Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Steve Hignett

posted on 23/7/11 at 03:13 AM Reply With Quote
I don't know why but I have really strong feelings AGAINST using superchargers on a bike engined (in relation to a TC versus SC)


In fact, I'd go one step further than say "don't know why" - it's just a weird ignorant view because I know little about SC's and I wish I knew more, but it just seems TC is simpler, but it's prob not!!!

Let us know how you get on crafty, or even better, do a blog/build/thread on here for people to follow, I'd def be interested in reading a step by step guide...

I met the owner of Rotrex a few weeks ago. He's the owner/orig designer/everything and he was such a top man!!! Couple years older than me, but a proper nice guy - obv not short of a couple quid, but def didn't let on...

Edited, because the iccle dwinky I've had tonight made me confuse Crafty with Loggyboy!!! Whoops!

[Edited on 23/7/11 by Steve Hignett]

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
T66

posted on 23/7/11 at 05:19 AM Reply With Quote
Bike engines dont produce a lot of torque compared to a car engine, nor do turbo ones till its up and running...


a supercharger is pumping in more or less all the time, so in my head wins hands down.



The power delivery is more linear and easier to deal with, turbos are great but only when they are spinning.



with a supercharged bike engine, you get the power of the turbo bike, the lightweight engine but benefit with more low down torque.



Well thats how I see it ....sure someone will be along shortly to counter that.





"One day I will grow up, But only for the day"

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
matt_gsxr

posted on 23/7/11 at 08:20 AM Reply With Quote
Interesting discussion.

I know nothing beyond theory about superchargers. They are difficult to fit (as a DIY) to bike engines, expensive and fairly heavy. They don't seem to be a popular modification compared to turbos in the suzuki boosted arena.


Regarding the suitabilty of a TD04. I have a td04-16T (which is nearly the largest version of the mitsubishi td04) and get +ve manifold pressure from 3000rpm. My engine is about 1100cc and revs to 11000rpm, and the original volvo T5R is 2300cc and revs to 6000rpm and makes 250bhp. The match would seem to be a good one although I am presently exploring carefully. It doesn't feel sluggish at low rpm, and this is a popular conversion on suzuki engines of this capacity.


Personally I would think that going for an engine of lower capacity (i.e. 750cc) would have very few benefits (are they really lighter?) and some disadvantages (fragility of clutch and gearbox). The exception would be if you are aiming to fit within some regulations (i.e. 1400cc capacipty limit with a 1.5x turbo penalty, which would point you at <933cc for example).

But the "standard" litre-bike engines are already highly strung so will require some costs (or risk) to turbocharge if you want to go past about 6psi. So, what about this idea (which I have been thinking about for a while).

Suzuki gsf1250 Bandit (>2007). This has not been put into a car as yet. It is a redesigned version of the bandit engine (some common characteristics to the gsxr1100wp too) but is now water cooled and fuel injected. Decent sized alternator. Capacity is 1255cc, price seems to be around 500 for a 4 year old engine and there are 1000's out there and no-one wants them because they don't break. The peak torque as stock is 108Nm at a very low 3750rpm, which means that peak power is somewhat stilted (and limited by the ECU) to about 110bhp at 10kRPM, but there are lots of horses keen to escape. ECU has been hacked already so changing the map would be possible as a DIY.

But, the master-stroke would be popping a turbo on one of these. You get the torque at the bottom and the top end, and an engine that has a great reputation for reliability. I am thinking of swapping to one of these when I run out of gsxr1100wp engines.

Obviously a bit of a project, but why else are we here?

Matt

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member   matt_gsxr 's Aim
SausageArm

posted on 23/7/11 at 09:41 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
VFR750 plus 1 bar of boost? Should see ~200hp if done right and still only weigh in around 70kg total engine weight?


As a comparison, my ZX10R engine, with Carillo steel conrods, JE forged pistons, Muzzy lockup clutch, but without airbox and exhaust manifold, weighed in at 67kg, so the smaller engine is no lighter, the only benefit i can see is the initial purchase cost of the VFR750 engine would be lower.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Kwik

posted on 23/7/11 at 10:19 AM Reply With Quote
nissan made a version of the march (micra) in 1980 something (i think) called the superturbo. it was a limited edition and only sold in japan, used a supercharger and a turbo charger. super charger at lower rpm and then when the turbo is up to speed that took over. produced around 100bhp from a 900cc engine?

VW do a similar thing with there new engines...

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member This User Has MSN Messenger
crafty

posted on 23/7/11 at 11:40 AM Reply With Quote
I have an Ultima GTR with a 2005 LS2 Corvette engine that is stock apart from the supercharger and puts out 600hp.

I have also driven Jeff Schwartz's 1000hp Twin Turbo Ultima GTR, it obviously a fully built engine. I drove it 400 miles on Hot Rod Power Tour in 2009 so have a fair comparison of both cars.

The supercharged car will climb lampposts, the low down power is brutal. The power delivery is also proportionate to the throttle pedal, both accelerating and backing off.

The turbocharged car doesnt have as much down low, but when it comes on boost youd better be ready. Itll go sideways at 100mph. When you back off, its still holding some boost and it takes a second or so to swallow all the air.

These are however 2 completely different systems, the supercharger is an eaton blower which gives instant boost.

The Twin Turbo car is a LOAD of fun, but I like mine for the power delivery, and the fact that its otherwise a stock engine, no heat issues etc.

I tossed up going for a Turbo on the MNR, but came across a deal from the USA for the Rotrex + Intercooler + Oiling system for USD2500... added to my experience with the Ultima I couldnt resist.

The Rotrex I am using has an impeller like a Turbo, and the impeller is driven through a gearbox. It will be driven 1:1 from the crank to the gearbox and the gearbox spins the impellor at 1:12.67. So, at 10,000rpm, the impellor will be spinning at 112,670rpm!!

The Eaton on the Ultima is positive displacement, so does not need to spool up like an impeller does.

Im not sure that the Rotrex will deliver quite the low down punch of the Eaton, but from other guys I have spoken to with supercharged R1 engines, they say the power is much more usable than a turbo.


The comparison between the Rotrex and a turbo on the R1 needs to take into account the fact that both will be limited by the R1s bottom end to around 230hp or thereabouts, so the advantage of being able to get loads of boost on a turbo is not so relevant.


Ive seen posts of people attempting to bolt a Mini sourced Eaton to a bike engine, but havent seen any evidence of this being done successfully. Does anyone know of any examples of the Eaton running on a bike engine?





Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 23/7/11 at 12:05 PM Reply With Quote
A problem with supercharging a bike engine is that you don't have easy access to the external pulleys like you do on a car engine, thus you would need to have somesort of bespoke front cover made and all the pulleys and seal made bespoke to drive a supercharger. This will not be cheap.

At the end of the day the OEMs and the performance people tend towards turbos, it is a better solution to the question of how to create boost. As for all the arguments about lag and non-linear power delivery..... come on guys its not 1986 anymore. A modern Turbo properly set-up and matched to the engine will give all the low down power you need.

I'm sure that superchargers aren't long for this world, especially in OEM applications, the new breed of IHI and Borg Warner Turbo's are so far advanced and with F1 engine manufactures now designing their own turbos with some super-trick technology that will filter down to road cars the pace of development will only increase.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
crafty

posted on 23/7/11 at 12:49 PM Reply With Quote
Sure, a turbo is a little easier to fit, but its not rocket science to make a blower drive. Mine was designed for a Yamaha snowmobile, which is not quite the same as the R1, needs some machine work done but came with seals and pulleys.

As for the fancy F1 and OEM technology required to overcome lag followed by peaky power.... that's not really in the equation when its a bunch of guys in sheds bolting blowers (supercharger or turbo) to bike engines (not designed for boost).....im sure there's loads of trickery that can be done to get more from any blower when you design and engine (and electronics) from scratch for boost

I'm just doing mine for shits and giggles, for USD2500 its cheapish thrills compared to going the Busa route





Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 24/7/11 at 12:58 PM Reply With Quote
Aye, not that complex to make a blower drive and comparable to making an exhaust manifold to suit IMO.

In response to the earlier "only thing better about a 750 is the cheap initial cost" - yup, and that's about 1000 better? I've been on the lookout for bike engines at sensible prices but they don't seem to be available at sensible prices. The bikes come in at 2-3K which is a massive outlay on something you want to break, and engine selling places know what you want it for and hike the price massively. 750's are very cheap, cheap on parts (and a well respected engine with a good torque profile and a sound to die for)?

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
matt_gsxr

posted on 24/7/11 at 09:38 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Aye, not that complex to make a blower drive and comparable to making an exhaust manifold to suit IMO.

In response to the earlier "only thing better about a 750 is the cheap initial cost" - yup, and that's about 1000 better? I've been on the lookout for bike engines at sensible prices but they don't seem to be available at sensible prices. The bikes come in at 2-3K which is a massive outlay on something you want to break, and engine selling places know what you want it for and hike the price massively. 750's are very cheap, cheap on parts (and a well respected engine with a good torque profile and a sound to die for)?


If you have the skills to do the supercharger then go for it (you will still need a manifold though).
Nothing like something a bit difference.

I still think gsf1250 is hidden gem.

Matt

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member   matt_gsxr 's Aim
coyoteboy

posted on 25/7/11 at 10:08 AM Reply With Quote
That 1250 is only 100hp/108nm, which is not a lot from a 1250 but the CR is 10.5:1 so there's a reasonable possibility it's capable of notably more with some added oomph?
View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
matt_gsxr

posted on 25/7/11 at 03:41 PM Reply With Quote
Yeah,

They actually make more than 100 stock more like 105 (with AFR of 14.2), not many bikes that make more than their spec-sheet.

Fundamentally Suzuki want to segment their market up (don't want gsf to steal market from gsxr etc.), so the gsf is strangled a bit at the top.

Only revs to 10kRPM (but relatively long stroke of 64mm).

Here are some dynosheets from holeshot which shows that you don't need to do much to get 132bhp (basically remove some strangulation and fit a 4-2-1).

Anyway, if you put a turbo (or supercharger) on there then you would get your 200bhp quite easily.

http://www.holeshot.com/dynocharts/dyno_bandit1250.html

The engine isn't that light (~80kg rather than the 60kg of some of the mega litre-bikes), but a 2k miles went for 420 yesterday, and they don't ever sell when listed at 600.

Anyway, its only a thought. I think you whizzy boosted 750 should make a fun project too.

Matt

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member   matt_gsxr 's Aim
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top






Website design and SEO by Studio Montage

All content 2001-16 LocostBuilders. Reproduction prohibited
Opinions expressed in public posts are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
the views of other users or any member of the LocostBuilders team.
Running XMB 1.8 Partagium [ 2002 XMB Group] on Apache under CentOS Linux
Founded, built and operated by ChrisW.