Westy1994
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 02:34 AM |
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Yet another Q plate question
I have just been browsing some other 7 forums ( as you do..) and on one of them they are discussing types of number plates used on 7's and where
they are fitted, and have come across this post on the WSCC forum.
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original thread
"If you read and UNDERSTAND the legislation, you'd know that stick on front plates are legal for a Westfield.
If you have a Q plate they are legal despite not having BSi kite marks or the postcode of the manufacturer 'cos on a Q plater, the old non
reflective black and silver pressed tin plates are legal too"
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Can someone find some proof of this please, as I have had a good look and can't find anything about how a Q plated car IS allowed to use the old
style plates. There are lots of sites (DVLA included) that are mentioning a pre 1972/3 cutoff date.
If you can find anything out please post back, as a nice black and silver plate on the back of mine would just finish it off nicely, but I am pretty
sure that person is incorrect in mentioning the black/silver plate bit.
Regards
Rich.
[Edited on 14/7/12 by Westy1994]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 07:26 AM |
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Its not true, the legistlation for black and silver plates is based on age of registration only.
Only cars registered before 1st Jan 1973
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_067666.pdf
There was a more detailed leafet but the dvla/directgov website is a maze of useless links and pages.
Mistral Motorsport
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loggyboy
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 07:48 AM |
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Heres the actuall law on it:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedule/2/made
No mention of Q plates or kitcars etc, just registration/first used on date.
Mistral Motorsport
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 10:11 AM |
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quote:
Can someone find some proof of this please, as I have had a good look and can't find anything about how a Q plated car IS allowed to use the old
style plates. There are lots of sites (DVLA included) that are mentioning a pre 1972/3 cutoff date.
well it should pass an mot since q plated cars should be tested for
emission 'before 1/8/75'
and everything else as 'on 1/1/71'
ref page 8 of introduction of
The MOT Inspection Manual - Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
also on your car you might be able just to stick the letters/number on with no extra backing
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Westy1994
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 10:43 AM |
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quote:
and everything else as 'on 1/1/71'
And it is on the basis of that line I posted the question at all, surely if it were as simple as that everyone would be doing it?
Looks like yet another email session with VOSA, they will be getting rather peeved off with me
Anyone, know anyone using one?
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vanepico
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| posted on 14/7/12 at 01:31 PM |
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A friend of our family has a brand new Citroen DS3 with an old black and grey number plate on, not sure if it is personalised or not.
[Edited on 14/7/12 by vanepico]
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 10:31 AM |
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OK, well I have to apologise to the WSCC member whose comments I was doubting in the above post regarding Black and Silver number plates for Q plated
cars..
I have had an email from VOSA that confirms that these plates legal for use on a Q plated car.
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Thank you for your email enquiry dated 14th July 2012, concerning number
plates.
As the vehicle is fitted with a Q plate you are correct in saying that the
MOT test limits applied will be those of a vehicle first used before the
1st January 1971. Due to this the old style Black and Silver number plates
you are refering to in your email would be acceptable for the purposes of
the MOT.
I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have
any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Kind Regards
Rebecca
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000
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There you go, another public service post .
Off to order my new plates,
Bye all.
Rich
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 10:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
OK, well I have to apologise to the WSCC member whose comments I was doubting in the above post regarding Black and Silver number plates for Q plated
cars..
I have had an email from VOSA that confirms that these plates legal for use on a Q plated car.
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Thank you for your email enquiry dated 14th July 2012, concerning number
plates.
As the vehicle is fitted with a Q plate you are correct in saying that the
MOT test limits applied will be those of a vehicle first used before the
1st January 1971. Due to this the old style Black and Silver number plates
you are refering to in your email would be acceptable for the purposes of
the MOT.
I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have
any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Kind Regards
Rebecca
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000
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There you go, another public service post .
Off to order my new plates,
Bye all.
Rich
Thats very interesting that the Mot Manual contradicts C&U regs... I doubt it would ever get to court, but I wonder what would overule...
Could you reply asking them to confirm that the C&U regs do not mention the exemption shown in the MoT manual?
[Edited on 17/7/12 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 10:48 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
A friend of our family has a brand new Citroen DS3 with an old black and grey number plate on, not sure if it is personalised or not.
[Edited on 14/7/12 by vanepico]
They is breaking the law then
Mistral Motorsport
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 11:06 AM |
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quote:
Could you reply asking them to confirm that the C&U regs do not mention the exemption shown in the MoT manual?
No, but you could, I have spent the best part of 3 weeks emailing VOSA with one question or another, so instead of me emailing them again, you do it
and let us know what they say, just say you read on your car forum about this situation.
I am more than satisfied with the response on the subject, and have now ordered my plates, the problem with this and many other regs concerning Q
plated cars, is that they fail to check what implications a new rule might have on our cars, just as the situation regarding the emissions, one manual
says one thing and the other another thing. Contacting them direct is the only way of getting an up to date answer .
The old style plates being the type they are do not reflect any light shown upon them by design, so I will leave that thought with you as to how they
may be useful.......
Rich.
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owelly
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 11:09 AM |
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Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 11:11 AM |
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Yes I read that site last week, but there is no mention of Q plates on the reg plate part, hence my need to email VOSA.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 11:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm
The full manual states in the introduction:
3. Vehicle ‘first used’ Dates - Application of Test Criteria NT’s will normally be provided with the vehicle details as part of the Vehicle
Specific Information supplied by the MOT database. This will usually include the vehicle’s ‘first used’ date. Where this information is available, the
NT should only use Reasons for Rejection applicable to the vehicle’s age. However, in cases where this information is not available or incorrect, the
NT should determine the vehicle’s ‘first used’ date as follows: a. Its date of manufacture, if the vehicle was originally used without being
registered in GB (e.g., an imported vehicle or ex-HM Forces vehicle), or b. Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be
treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be considered as vehicles first used before 1 August 1975. For all
other testing purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 January 1971, or c. In any other case, the earlier of either: · Its
date of first registration, or · The date six months after it was manufactured. This information should be entered onto the VTS Device to enable
the NT to select the appropriate Reason for Rejection
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm
Mistral Motorsport
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 11:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm
a better link is
http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4_int.zip
or
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/publications/manualsandguides/vehicletestingmanualsandguides.htm
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 12:04 PM |
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There you go then, it was legal all the time.
I guess they don't want that information written everywhere since it could lead to abuse by some folks and hence why the information is hard in
interpret.
Glad I emailed anyway, as at least now I know I am legal, instead of trying to work out which book , manual, forum posts etc etc are correct.
Yet another thumbs up for a Q plated car, going well this....
ETA.
As Gremlin above has already posted , as I have a black car already I can now, quite legally use stick-on letters directly onto the rear of the car,
even better - and cheaper..
[Edited on 17/7/12 by Westy1994]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 12:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
There you go then, it was legal all the time.
I guess they don't want that information written everywhere since it could lead to abuse by some folks and hence why the information is hard in
interpret.
Glad I emailed anyway, as at least now I know I am legal, instead of trying to work out which book , manual, forum posts etc etc are correct.
I wouldnt say that, whilst I agree that your car will pass an MoT, that doesnt necessarily mean its fully compliant with the C&U regs, the MoT
just scims the surface. Like I said before, it would unlikely get noticed by the average bobby, and maybe even a VOSA inspector (even if the office
monkey has confirmed it) and even less likely to ever go as far as court, but the C&U (ie the law) doesnt excuse post 73 Q regs from using B&W
plates.
Not trying to cause an argument, just present the facts as I see them.
Mistral Motorsport
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 12:28 PM |
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I have already presented the facts to VOSA they replied as per my above post, I think if they were giving out false information it would be a crime
also, have you emailed them about it yet?
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 12:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
I have already presented the facts to VOSA they replied as per my above post, I think if they were giving out false information it would be a crime
also, have you emailed them about it yet?
Not yet, and im not saying the info theyve given is false, to pass an MoT you can have B&W plates on a Q, but having a MoT'd car doesnt not
guarantee it complys with C&U regs.
Mistral Motorsport
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 01:03 PM |
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And this is where the whole thing becomes a farse, with one site saying one thing and the other another thing, post back the reply you get from them,
I would be very interested to see how it reads.
Here is the email address
enquiries@vosa.gov.uk
ETA
If VOSA have said that this is passes an MOT, then by default the car is suitable for use on the road, after all that is what an MOT is about. If the
books and sites can not agree with each other then that is not really my problem, and if VOSA say they are allowed, you would think that they are
aware that the car will actually be driven on a public road and need to meet the C&U rules. All I have done is present them with the information
that they need to say yes or no, in this case it was yes.
[Edited on 17/7/12 by Westy1994]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 01:14 PM |
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Cheers, have sent:
Mots for Q registered vehcles and Black and white/silver Number plates.
Hello,
I was wondering if you could confirm the following:
The MoT manual states:
Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be
considered as vehicles first used before 1 August 1975. For all other testing
purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 January 1971..
Therefore this would dicate that it is acceptable for them to have the old style Black and White/silver registration plates.
However in the Construction and Use Regulations (The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001) it makes no reference to Q
registered cars, it only states:
PART 3 VEHICLES REGISTERED BEFORE 1ST JANUARY 1973 (OPTIONAL SPECIFICATIONS)
A
Requirements where the vehicle carries a registration plate which is constructed so that the mark may be illuminated from behind by virtue of the
translucency of its characters.
1. The registration mark must be formed of white translucent characters on a black background on the surface of that plate.
2. When the registration mark is illuminated during the hours of darkness, the characters on that plate must appear white against a black
background.
Could you confirm if there is a contradiction between the requirements, if there is a part of the Construction and Use regulations that exempts Q
plates, or if it is accepted that the vehicle can pass an MoT, but yet not comply with the Construction and Use Regulations at the same time?
Many Thanks,
David Garside.
Mistral Motorsport
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 01:17 PM |
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Ahh, nice one, I have sent a similar worded one, so lets see what they say now.....
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 01:46 PM |
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Why would the omission for the emissions rules suggest you don't have to meet modern visibility/registration rules?
Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.
quote:
And this is where the whole thing becomes a farse, with one site saying one thing and the other another thing, post back the reply you get from them,
I would be very interested to see how it reads.
No really a farce, it's just that the MOT can't possibly test all possible C&U artifacts and since there's a vast variation it
just summarised.
[Edited on 17/7/12 by coyoteboy]
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Westy1994
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 01:59 PM |
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There is an old saying 'Don't shoot the messenger'
I don't write these rules but simply question them when they appear to be abstract.
quote:
Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.
If the rules and regulations were written in one book for kitcars, then we would not be having this conversation at all. There seems to be one rule
written here, then another in some other book, followed by VOSA and the C&U regs giving different info.
All I am attempting to establish is wether or not I can legally use a black and silver plate on a Q reg, and in the words of Mr Clarkson - How hard
can it be ?!!!! - well very hard by the looks of it....
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Davegtst
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 02:04 PM |
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It would be great if we could use black and silver plates. They would look perfect on mine.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 17/7/12 at 02:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Why would the omission for the emissions rules suggest you don't have to meet modern visibility/registration rules?
Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.
Its not to do with the emmsions note, its to do with the areas in bold I highlighted, as in how a car is treated for its 'first used on
date'
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