DIY Si
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 02:43 PM |
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Nev,
For someone who has no connection with any of this, what exactly is so wrong with it? And I'd like details please, not just it's shite.
Genuinely curious and not out to cause an argument, not that it appears you need any hand with that! 
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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coozer
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 04:25 PM |
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I would LOVE one!
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Alfa145
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 04:52 PM |
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If I was going to build a car then I would be choosing the SR2, maybe not with the V8 as that would stretch the pocket a little too much but as far as
I can see it its a nicely engineered kit with good support and it looks damn good.
I would also be interested in exactly what is wrong with the chassis according to Nev, not a sweeping "its crap" statement and what could
be done to improve it.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 05:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Nev,
For someone who has no connection with any of this, what exactly is so wrong with it? And I'd like details please, not just it's shite.
Genuinely curious and not out to cause an argument, not that it appears you need any hand with that!
I'd like to put my specific thoughts out in the open, and the fixes, but that's what I get paid for.
That chassis, in 4cylinder or V8, has the torsional rigidity of a jelly snake, and the beam strength to match.
The FEA has been done???The beam and torsion numbers should be to hand. Please post them/
Cheers,
Nev.
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CRAIGR
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 05:26 PM |
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Anyone for popcorn ????
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Alfa145
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 05:58 PM |
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Lol, so you say its shite but cant say why as you want paying for your opinion...You call it a death trap but won't tell people why? You say it
has the torsional rigidity of a jelly snake but cant/wont justify it,....think I'll discount you opinion as just inflammatory and not based on
fact.
[Edited on 5/8/12 by Alfa145]
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mad gaz
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 06:16 PM |
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That book locost must be really good then!
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petrol head ash
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| posted on 5/8/12 at 06:44 PM |
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Nev.... when your not in working hours, would it be possible to post up your 'in depth' thoughts/facts? as I am genuinely interested in
the car! obviously I'm not going to pay you but you never no, you might find some positive kindness in there to help me out!
can I just say it looked pretty good in the videos! I don't think I would say it has the 'torsional rigidity of a jelly snake'
also, those exhausts on the V8 look awesome ;-)
Ashley
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 08:50 AM |
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There's no great 'in depth' thoughts or facts to put out, just good solid, simple engineering.
Yes, the 'Book' car would be slightly better than that thing, but not by much.
I'll repeat what is known, and an acknowledged reality, and that is of the well known and advertised kits available, not one will pass the
Australian beam and torsion tests without the addition of a number of tubes and other metal. NOT ONE!!! This includes the bigger named and much older
production models, of which one (the oldest and original) had its homologation rescinded a couple of years ago.
The beam and torsion test is not demanding, nor sets unnecessarily high targets, but it says everything when not one uk produced kit will pass. That
chassis in the pics would be at the lower end of the uk scale. The front wishbones would never get signed off by any self respecting signatory
engineer also.
I'm not an exponent of greater regulation, but the UK kit industry needs some sort of additional, simple testing like those tests in Aus, if for
no other reason than to weed out the garbage and enforce at least a minimal standard of engineering integrity.
This needs to be done before being forced to by europe, and the industry being wiped out by beaurocracy.
Cheers,
Nev.
For the person who thinks round is better than square (the old chestnut still comes up), a 1" square tube is better in every respect, and
stronger, than a 1" round tube of similar thickness. This is not a debatable statement, but simple fact which any engineer should be able to
verify with some simple maths. The square is a little heavier, but not by enough so as to make the round preferable.
Don't ask for the numbers, I've put them on here at least 5 times, and others similarly.
The Elfin...You can't compare the chassis above with an Elfin. To start with, the Elfin is built using thick wall square tube, and lots of it.
It's a heavy car. The Elfin has to meet 6000Nm/degree for torsion. Four cylinder cars meet 4Nm/degree/kg mass. Which for a 7 type car is about
2800Nm/degree, which is fairly soft by most standards.
My soapbox is now in the incinerator. 
The lesser capable among us who can't understand plain english and carry out simple mathematics, are now free to make whatever sarcastic and
derogatory statements they feel compelled to.  Simply, I don't care any more.
[Edited on 6/8/12 by Neville Jones]
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Irony
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 09:22 AM |
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Threads like this worry me. I am not a engineer - never have been, I never will be. I have been looking into the Aus Torsion tests and I don't
think my Viento would pass it. Then again I am not an engineer and I have put my trust in my manufacturer and the UK IVA test.
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franky
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 09:36 AM |
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For what its worth an Ultima doesn't pass. No issues with their cars either.
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mad gaz
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 11:04 AM |
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im really glad that we have companies with the forward thinking and balls to keep pushing the 7 concept on. because all the really talented people are
still building book locosts .the SR2 is the best 7 on the market today .and yes ihave driven one and owned lots of others . if the current economic
climate had been different i would already have one in my garage.i look foward to owning one in the future. or maybe one the super experts that can
fully test a cars from a couple of pictures will shock us all and build a the perfect car . untill then GREAT JOB ROADRUNNER
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Agriv8
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Where are the engineers with the comments on this?
......
The MX5 rear end???? That engine would pulverise it the first time the throttle was opened fully.
.....
Cheers,
Nev.
Nev,
I am not an engineer just someone trying to understand . but your comment above would it pulverise the back and or just brake traction on a light car
with lots of torque, I would have though it would just brake traction on the drive wheels.
ATB agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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loggyboy
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I'll repeat what is known, and an acknowledged reality, and that is of the well known and advertised kits available, not one will pass the
Australian beam and torsion tests without the addition of a number of tubes and other metal. NOT ONE!!! This includes the bigger named and much older
production models, of which one (the oldest and original) had its homologation rescinded a couple of years ago.
Could it not just be that whilst none will pass this wonder test, thats only due to the fact there is absolutely no need for them to pass this test.
Considering the number of kitcars that on the road and the many that are on track, even those that alot live their lives in hard racing environments
dont have any known issues with (regular, or systematic) component failure due to lack of theses tests being carried out.
Could it just be that you are overplaying the importance of these test and merely using some limited experience of the test as an excuse to come
across as all knowing and none telling.
Mistral Motorsport
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 01:03 PM |
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On the contrary Loggyboy.
All ICV's, kits or self builds or low volume, in Aus have to pass the Beam and Torsion test to get registered. I send chassis to Aus, and
everything that goes has to be individually tested and pass.
Here in UK, Westfield and Cateringvan have known chassis cracking issues among the racers, and some road cars, they just aren't publicised. If
these two have the issues, then none of the others are exempt.
The majority of the 7 types built don't get the use to bring out the problems, but those track car problems are a good guide.
Go ahead and buy as you please, and have fun building and driving it. Just don't go thinking any one is better than another, purely because it
has a chassis which is better suited to Installation Art, and not a properly functional road car.
All I did at the start of this was point out some pretty but poor design. Others will come and go just as these, and the breakages you'll never
hear of, but they are happening to the so called best of them. None of my chassis has cracked......yet! The day will come to get the welder out, no
doubt, but that's racing. Bounce them over the kerbs enough and the all break, from karts to F1 and Nascar.
Cheers,
Nev.
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roadrunnerracing
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 08:52 PM |
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I don't think it is really worth my time to go through each point, but I will say we do have full product liability insurance, as I would expect
all the kit manufacturers have.
The chassis designer works for one of the worlds top companies, he has a mechanical engineering degree and over 10 years real world experience
including work on race cars. As well as designing chassis for other manufacturers.
Me, just the 38 years in the motor trade building engines and modifying cars. Full old fashioned apprenticeship, still a current MOT tester in all
classes and QC for four testers. I am a junior builder on here, it seems to get to be a senior builder you need to make lots of posts.
We do have all the calculations for our chassis and no they won't get posted on here, the same as all the Solidworks simulations of the
suspension working etc won't get posted either, you would not expect that information from Caterham or Ultima or any other business.
I did check a few links to see what one of the 'experts' on here was building or had built and how their vast knowledge was obtained but
could not find anything. Please send me the links as I am interested. Like all companies we learn as we go along, what I don't do is insult
people or other companies, I find most of my time is taken up in the workshop or on track and not sat at a keyboard even if I was interested in doing
something like that.
Regards Mike
PS The uprated 7 inch LSD in the V8 SR2 handled quite happily the 300 bhp in my turbo MK1 MX5 for 3 years. That burned rubber the same way the V8
does. As a previous poster pointed out the car only weighs 720 kgs the MX5 was 1150 kgs. I know it has a lot more torque than my turbo engine and at
lower revs, exact figures for it from our rolling road in fact, but testing and time will give us the answer if it is up to the job. The 7 inch diff
in my 1800 kgs 400 bhp Sierra Cosworth manged O.K. for 10 years and 80000 miles. Those where the days even Ford got it wrong with compliance bushes
made from jelly. Still excellent source of income for us all for uprating them.
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franky
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 09:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by roadrunnerracing
I don't think it is really worth my time to go through each point, but I will say we do have full product liability insurance, as I would expect
all the kit manufacturers have.
The chassis designer works for one of the worlds top companies, he has a mechanical engineering degree and over 10 years real world experience
including work on race cars. As well as designing chassis for other manufacturers.
Me, just the 38 years in the motor trade building engines and modifying cars. Full old fashioned apprenticeship, still a current MOT tester in all
classes and QC for four testers. I am a junior builder on here, it seems to get to be a senior builder you need to make lots of posts.
We do have all the calculations for our chassis and no they won't get posted on here, the same as all the Solidworks simulations of the
suspension working etc won't get posted either, you would not expect that information from Caterham or Ultima or any other business.
I did check a few links to see what one of the 'experts' on here was building or had built and how their vast knowledge was obtained but
could not find anything. Please send me the links as I am interested. Like all companies we learn as we go along, what I don't do is insult
people or other companies, I find most of my time is taken up in the workshop or on track and not sat at a keyboard even if I was interested in doing
something like that.
Regards Mike
PS The uprated 7 inch LSD in the V8 SR2 handled quite happily the 300 bhp in my turbo MK1 MX5 for 3 years. That burned rubber the same way the V8
does. As a previous poster pointed out the car only weighs 720 kgs the MX5 was 1150 kgs. I know it has a lot more torque than my turbo engine and at
lower revs, exact figures for it from our rolling road in fact, but testing and time will give us the answer if it is up to the job. The 7 inch diff
in my 1800 kgs 400 bhp Sierra Cosworth manged O.K. for 10 years and 80000 miles. Those where the days even Ford got it wrong with compliance bushes
made from jelly. Still excellent source of income for us all for uprating them.
You shouldn't feel like you have to reply. Another poster on here use to bash every other car, obviously they make the best cars you can
buy/build that's why the UK is full of them..... or not, Luckily he doesn't post on here much either. Good luck with the car.
I'm a very very simple stupid man but I do understand that a little flex is good as it allows feel and resists cracking.
[Edited on 6/8/12 by franky]
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KJK
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 10:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I'll repeat what is known, and an acknowledged reality, and that is of the well known and advertised kits available, not one will pass the
Australian beam and torsion tests without the addition of a number of tubes and other metal. NOT ONE.
SYLVA RIOT passed back in 2009
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MRLuke
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| posted on 6/8/12 at 10:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by roadrunnerracing
I don't think it is really worth my time to go through each point, but I will say we do have full product liability insurance, as I would expect
all the kit manufacturers have.
The chassis designer works for one of the worlds top companies, he has a mechanical engineering degree and over 10 years real world experience
including work on race cars. As well as designing chassis for other manufacturers.
Me, just the 38 years in the motor trade building engines and modifying cars. Full old fashioned apprenticeship, still a current MOT tester in all
classes and QC for four testers. I am a junior builder on here, it seems to get to be a senior builder you need to make lots of posts.
We do have all the calculations for our chassis and no they won't get posted on here, the same as all the Solidworks simulations of the
suspension working etc won't get posted either, you would not expect that information from Caterham or Ultima or any other business.
I did check a few links to see what one of the 'experts' on here was building or had built and how their vast knowledge was obtained but
could not find anything. Please send me the links as I am interested. Like all companies we learn as we go along, what I don't do is insult
people or other companies, I find most of my time is taken up in the workshop or on track and not sat at a keyboard even if I was interested in doing
something like that.
Regards Mike
PS The uprated 7 inch LSD in the V8 SR2 handled quite happily the 300 bhp in my turbo MK1 MX5 for 3 years. That burned rubber the same way the V8
does. As a previous poster pointed out the car only weighs 720 kgs the MX5 was 1150 kgs. I know it has a lot more torque than my turbo engine and at
lower revs, exact figures for it from our rolling road in fact, but testing and time will give us the answer if it is up to the job. The 7 inch diff
in my 1800 kgs 400 bhp Sierra Cosworth manged O.K. for 10 years and 80000 miles. Those where the days even Ford got it wrong with compliance bushes
made from jelly. Still excellent source of income for us all for uprating them.
Sensible reply there, far too easy to get involved in a slagging match over things like this.
Car looks stunning 
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rost
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 06:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by roadrunnerracing
I don't think it is really worth my time to go through each point, but I will say we do have full product liability insurance, as I would expect
all the kit manufacturers have.
The chassis designer works for one of the worlds top companies, he has a mechanical engineering degree and over 10 years real world experience
including work on race cars. As well as designing chassis for other manufacturers.
Me, just the 38 years in the motor trade building engines and modifying cars. Full old fashioned apprenticeship, still a current MOT tester in all
classes and QC for four testers. I am a junior builder on here, it seems to get to be a senior builder you need to make lots of posts.
We do have all the calculations for our chassis and no they won't get posted on here, the same as all the Solidworks simulations of the
suspension working etc won't get posted either, you would not expect that information from Caterham or Ultima or any other business.
I did check a few links to see what one of the 'experts' on here was building or had built and how their vast knowledge was obtained but
could not find anything. Please send me the links as I am interested. Like all companies we learn as we go along, what I don't do is insult
people or other companies, I find most of my time is taken up in the workshop or on track and not sat at a keyboard even if I was interested in
doing something like that.
Regards Mike
[..]
This!
Saw the car at Stoneleigh and was impressed.
There are always some design choices one could debate, but that's the same with any car.
[Edited on 7/8/12 by rost]
Charlie don't surf!
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roadrunnerracing
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 09:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by KJK
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I'll repeat what is known, and an acknowledged reality, and that is of the well known and advertised kits available, not one will pass the
Australian beam and torsion tests without the addition of a number of tubes and other metal. NOT ONE.
SYLVA RIOT passed back in 2009
GD427 passed with no modification
Mike
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 10:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
The majority of the 7 types built don't get the use to bring out the problems, but those track car problems are a good guide.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
The day will come to get the welder out, no doubt, but that's racing. Bounce them over the kerbs enough and the all break, from karts to F1
and Nascar.
In one post? Bravo! ;-)
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crafty
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 01:28 PM |
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Mike,
Thanks for chipping in with a sensible response.
I've chucked a supercharged 600hp LS in an Ultima. It bends a little, I don't give a toss. (we had a bunch of engineers lurk on the Ultima
forum at one stage and tell us how bendy the Ultima is)
I'm chucking an Audi S5 V8 into the back seat of a Porsche 356. I'm expecting that to break some stuff at some stage too.
I've chucked a supercharger on my R1 engined MNR and beat the crap out of it on the track. It snaps stuff all the time.
So does the caterham R500 I race against.
So does everything else I race against.
If nothing breaks or bends, it's obviously my problem for not trying hard enough, not shoving enough power in there, or not beating on it hard
enough.
Good on you for building a V8 engined 7.
Its unfortunate that people like Nev feel obliged to shitcan any new ideas.
I'm sure as a manufacturer you cringe and hope that prospective customers are not scared away.
I hope that any such prospective customers do their homework and buy what they want, rather than seeking opinions on forums.
As for you Nev, I can't help it, i have to respond to you with a childish pisstake.... I'm sure there's quite a few on here that
also feel inclined to take the wee out of you, so on their behalf, I"ll have a go,
I'm not doubting that you have engineering skills, I've read your posts.
I tried to decipher from posts on other threads what exactly you are building in your spare time between posting on this forum. It may very well be
that you are building some great stuff, if you are, good on you.
What i am sure of is that yours is much stiffer than everyone else's..... The amount of pulling on it and waving it in the air that you seem to
do, its no wonder that its very stiff. Mine would most certainly have snapped or fatigued if I waved it around as much as you do.
As an Aussie, I'm glad you're sending your stiffies down to Oz, we certainly seem to be a little too soft as a nation. Perhaps
that's why they introduced the torsional testing.... Trying to get us all to HTFU
At this stage, with limited entries from other competitors, I'm going to award you the "smallest, stiffest and best engineered willy
award"
Well done.
My only question now is, will you be able to resist responding to this, especially after you've won the competition.
.
Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8
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crafty
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 01:36 PM |
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... This is my favorite front engined LS special.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/569385-pictures-completed-autocross-race-street-car.html
Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8
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wylliezx9r
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| posted on 7/8/12 at 03:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by crafty
As for you Nev, I can't help it, i have to respond to you with a childish pisstake.... I'm sure there's quite a few on here that
also feel inclined to take the wee out of you, so on their behalf, I"ll have a go,
I'm not doubting that you have engineering skills, I've read your posts.
I tried to decipher from posts on other threads what exactly you are building in your spare time between posting on this forum. It may very well be
that you are building some great stuff, if you are, good on you.
What i am sure of is that yours is much stiffer than everyone else's..... The amount of pulling on it and waving it in the air that you seem to
do, its no wonder that its very stiff. Mine would most certainly have snapped or fatigued if I waved it around as much as you do.
As an Aussie, I'm glad you're sending your stiffies down to Oz, we certainly seem to be a little too soft as a nation. Perhaps
that's why they introduced the torsional testing.... Trying to get us all to HTFU
At this stage, with limited entries from other competitors, I'm going to award you the "smallest, stiffest and best engineered willy
award"
Well done.
My only question now is, will you be able to resist responding to this, especially after you've won the competition.
.
+99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
George Best
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