lordbenny
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 07:49 PM |
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Westy Just Wont Start!
Tried EVERYTHING:
All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced
Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced
Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered
crank sensor replaced
Ht leads checked
4 month old battery checked and ok
new spark plugs
ignition coil replaced
2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.
There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust
and the battery drains and runs out of power.
I took the car for a rolling road tune up last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly
It starts up fine with a jump start.
ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!
HEEEEEELP!
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Staple balls
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 07:55 PM |
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Try a different battery? Sounds to me if it starts with a jump, then runs fine that the battery hasn't got the grunt to do the job.
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lordbenny
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 07:57 PM |
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I suppose thats my next move, thanks.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 08:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
Tried EVERYTHING:
All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced
Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced
Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered
crank sensor replaced
Ht leads checked
4 month old battery checked and ok
new spark plugs
ignition coil replaced
2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.
There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust
and the battery drains and runs out of power.
I took the car for a rolling road tune up last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly
It starts up fine with a jump start.
ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!
HEEEEEELP!
While it might just be a dead cell in the battery from the symptoms it sounds like the rolling road operator has tweaked the the ignition advance
and as a result the engine has to much ignition advance at starting RPM.
A very common problem after rolling road tweaking.
A tool is only as good as its operator.
[Edited on 26/10/12 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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austin man
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 08:12 PM |
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Sounds like it could be a timing issue the tuner may have altered this to give peak power. I remember this being a problem when turning the
distributor slightly too much the car ran fine and would start up when warm but appears very tight when cold
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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lordbenny
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 08:37 PM |
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One of the reasons I took it to the rolling road (Sanspeed, Bexleyheath) was to solve the starting problem. It had the starting problem before the
rolling road tune.
Peter Sansom has been tuning carbs for over 40 years....he knows what he's doing so I really dont think its a timing issue.
I had the battery checked last week and I was told it was ok.
They told me that they thought it was an electrical issue but could take a while to source the problem but I didnt have the time or money to leave the
car with them for what could be days!
[Edited on 26/10/12 by lordbenny]
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austin man
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 09:02 PM |
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It could be the starter or solenoid drawing too much current, your post makes the problem to appear to have started after the tuning.
Another consideration could be if its a silvertop is it the DOHC starter as these are different to the pinto ones, also is the engine a silvertop
zetec if so did you have the sump modified, if do did you modify the side of the sump as it needs a recess creating if this isn't done the
starter sits at an angle causing it to be tight on the ring gear on the flywheel
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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ian locostzx9rc2
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 09:09 PM |
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If it starts on jump leads onto another battery it can only be a faulty battery.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 09:11 PM |
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Most experienced old school mechanics would have diagnosed it by just hearing the engine turn over.
The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke
Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.
You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the
engine over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect
more than 10v. If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.
[Edited on 26/10/12 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 09:27 PM |
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I've had V8 rovers that do this, stick on a modern starter motor resolves it.
Doubling the battery compensates.
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lordbenny
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 09:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Most experienced old school mechanics would have diagnosed it by just hearing the engine turn over.
The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke
Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.
You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the
engine over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect
more than 10v. If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.
I dont suppose your in South West London/Surrey are you? 
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steve m
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| posted on 26/10/12 at 10:05 PM |
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My xflow does exactly the same, and on mine it is deffo the ignition timing to advanced
retarding the ign a tad, results in the car starting fine
Steve
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 08:44 AM |
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Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead
you to wrongly blame your battery.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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lordbenny
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 09:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead
you to wrongly blame your battery.
Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....
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40inches
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 10:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead
you to wrongly blame your battery.
Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....
Try this:
The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke
Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.
You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the engine
over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect more than 10v.
If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.
[Edited on 26/10/12 by britishtrident]
Very simple test as BT says, do this first then come back
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lordbenny
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 12:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead
you to wrongly blame your battery.
Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....
Try this:
The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke
Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.
You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the engine
over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect more than 10v.
If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.
Very simple test as BT says, do this first then come back
Ok, will have to find someone with a volt meter and get back to you.
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40inches
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 01:11 PM |
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Multi meters are very cheap, a must have
really.Maplins
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johnemms
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 01:12 PM |
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I had the same problem..
I put on a type 093 54 amp battery - chucks it over great..
That was on a distributor with 19 degree static..
Own chassis & Build - First time pass!!
"7's" aren't really "cars", they are 'experiences"
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/10/12 at 02:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead
you to wrongly blame your battery.
Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....
I dont have any more thoughts sadly! Was just pointing out that jump starting is more than trying just a new battery, its trying a few extra volts as
well. Id go with the suggestions above and see where it gets you. Or just get used to parking on hills! 
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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lordbenny
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 05:02 PM |
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So I'm now being told that I need to know what was the ampage recorded on cranking on the test bench where I had the starter motor stripped
before I part with £100 for a racing battery.
I didnt ask the guys to test the cranking ampage!
I'm also being told that the Sierra Cosworth starter motor is slow cranking. Can anyone confirm this?
Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing
it.
Looks like this is going to run for a little while yet!
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steve m
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 05:58 PM |
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I would still do, as it says above, and retard the ignition, and it will start
Steve
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 06:22 PM |
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I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect
giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.
Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.
When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your
dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a
mig welder and a file!
Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!
[Edited on 30/10/12 by BaileyPerformance]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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lordbenny
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 07:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect
giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.
Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.
When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your
dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a
mig welder and a file!
Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!
No megajolt.
Rolling roaded just two weeks ago!
They reckon at Sanspeed (tuners) the starter is drawing too much current so the ECU is shutting the spark down! I'm gonna stick a big'ol
600 cold cranking amp battery and hope that soles my issue!
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect
giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.
Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.
When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your
dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a
mig welder and a file!
Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!
No megajolt.
Rolling roaded just two weeks ago!
They reckon at Sanspeed (tuners) the starter is drawing too much current so the ECU is shutting the spark down! I'm gonna stick a big'ol
600 cold cranking amp battery and hope that soles my issue!
Have a look at the timing figure at low RPM, say 300, should be less than 10. This will not effect your rolling road tune at all. What power did it
produce just out of interest?
A zetec will start off a mini battery mate, no problem, could be where you have powered your megajolt from, we use relay (coil powered from ignition)
direct from battery. BUT - having said that the EDIS will default a 10deg even if the megajolt has shutdown so still should start.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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steve m
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| posted on 30/10/12 at 08:41 PM |
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Perhaps talking to your tuners will solve the mystery, as between us, it hasnt
if you took the car there running, but now it doesnt, now its there problem
Steve
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