daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:06 PM |
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Zetec Silvertop Hot Start Problem
I have a Locost with a Zetec silvertop running standard management/injection. Little Odessey race battery.
Pump/filter in the engine bay along with a swirl pot.
During my IVA test some 6 weeks ago now I had a problem with the car re-starting when hot. During the IVA test the bonnet was off, but the car was
very hot and the fan had come on 7 or 8 times. When I was asked to restart the car by the tester it simply wouldn't 'catch'.
Seemed to be turning over slightly slower but I couldn't be 100% on that.
Some 40 minutes later the car started OK and off the test went again.
So, in the interim from failing my first IVA and passing my second I spoke to a local Ford 'guru' who suggested that my issues sounded
like fuel vaporization due to the pump getting too warm. I got home and let the car run until the fan came on, sure enough the hot air from the fan
was being pushed straight on to the fuel pump. To combat this I wrapped both the fuel pump and filter with heat repellent material.
I carried out the same experiment and even after the fan had come on 4 or 5 times the pump/filter were still cool.
So, fast forward to this week and my first proper drives in the car - yesterday I took a steady drive over to Todmorden to see Mr Carbon Copies  . On
the way I was stuck in traffic and it was fkin sunny. Fan came on/off as before, no issues. Got to Todmorden, had a brew and a natter and got back
home with no issues.
Tonight I went out for a drive in the cool air (<18deg). The water temp never went above 75deg and the fan never came on, but I was giving the car
some abuse so things were 'hot'.
I got home and turned off the car. Pulled my daily off the drive and went to restart the Locost and it turned over veerrry slowly and just started. I
pulled the car into the garage and turned it off. I immediately went to restart it and it almost wouldn't turn over and certainly wouldn't
start. I pulled off the bonnet and checked the battery which showed 12.76v.
I'm going to try starting the car tomorrow night as I'm inside now, but has anyone any ideas what the problem could be?
Fuel pump/filter were still really cool, as was the swirl pot.
Any ideas? Alternator/battery getting too hot?
Help please; nowt more embarrassing than a car that won't start 
Thanks in advance.
[Edited on 27/8/13 by daveb666]
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:31 PM |
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Did you say your fuel pump is near your cooling fan? Your pump should be as close to your tank as possible, injection pumps need to have head of fuel
to work effectively so below the tank is best.
It could well be a warm pump cavitating, was the pump noisey when you tried to start?
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:33 PM |
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I'd be suspecting the starter.
But, swap out the standars things first, leads, plugs etc
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daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:35 PM |
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Pump has always made a 'noise' on first ignition but certainly isn't noisy.
System is:
Tank
lift pump (by scuttle)
swirl pot
filter (side panel under inlet)
hp pump (side panel under inlet)
rail in
Are you saying I should move the pumps nearer the tank, every car I've seen with a swirl pot always has them mounted on the scuttle like mine is
so surely the pump is always in the bay in these instances?
Something that was mentioned earlier was that the return from my swirl pot to the tank doesn't have a restrictor in it, but assuming the swirl
pot is full all the time I don't see why this would stop the car from restarting.
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daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme Kermit
I'd be suspecting the starter.
But, swap out the standards things first, leads, plugs etc
If it's the starter, is that cos it's getting too hot or just potentially knacked?
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big_wasa
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:37 PM |
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Andy is running the same set up and finding similar issues. Bt has suggested its the timing advance and he has given some very good info in the
past.
Maybe your ford guy has some ideas.
Link
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big_wasa
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:41 PM |
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The starter was a recon and only done a few hours work. plugs and leads where also new. The race battery is tiny have you tried some
"good" jump leads to see if that helps.
[Edited on 27/8/13 by big_wasa]
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daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:43 PM |
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I'm not convinced its the battery; if it starts tomorrow night and know that's good.
I'll check the connections on the starter etc for tightness as that's an easy one; it's probably getting TBs fitted to it in the
next fortnight so if it's something engine/electric related due to the standard management then that'll be going in the bin with the new
loom anyway.
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:45 PM |
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Low pressure pump feeding a pot then feeding a HP pump is fine, I assume your fuel regulator returns to the pot? (Not the tank) which is correct.
It's not a bad idea to have a slight restriction in the pipe from the pot to the tank.
If the pump is quite during hot start cranking its probably ok, to prove if you could install pressure gauge.
Have you got good engine and chassis earths?
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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big_wasa
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:52 PM |
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It sure wouldn't hurt to try an extra one.
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AndyW
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 08:55 PM |
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Not got to the bottom of mine yet but almost identical symptoms. Just after IVA car simply would not even turn over, put jumper pack on and fired
straight up. Let it cool down and starts perfect. Only when it has got real hot does it do it.
Im just about to refit my prop after doing a gearbox oil seal then I will have a look over to see if anything obvious.
[Edited on 27/8/13 by AndyW]
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 09:00 PM |
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That sounds like a hot starter to me, could just be a matter of wrapping the started with reflective material.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 09:06 PM |
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If the starter is too hot why would using jump leads help if the battery is OK?
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AndyW
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 09:06 PM |
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Talking to Doug the IVA tester, he said it could well be something like that. Where my starter is, the location within the engine bay has little
ventilation around, exhaust above, block next to it and then closed in by ali panels. I need a new starter as my one is a little lazy at times anyway
so will wrap it with something to try and solve. I was also going to add some bay vents to the side too.
If I get a result I will post it up, although wont be for a week or two before I get chance.
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daveb666
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| posted on 27/8/13 at 09:10 PM |
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Mine is under the manifold and there are no vents on mine either.
I'll wrap mine this week as a starting point and report back.
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jeffw
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| posted on 28/8/13 at 05:30 AM |
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This is quite a common Zetec problem and the only cure I came up with is a geared starter...
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andy188
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| posted on 28/8/13 at 11:44 AM |
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hi, i have simmular probs with mine, ok when cooled down, will try covering startter too, hope its the fix.
Andy
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Billbro
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| posted on 28/8/13 at 12:20 PM |
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Hot starting.
I had the same problem. It seemed like it was not getting fuel or low battery power or timing out. Turned over slowly and showed no signs of starting
until it cooled. Tried a new standard starter but it did not solve my problem. Bought a Powerlite heavy duty starter for about £150 and it has always
started since fitting it. Did not change anything else.
I'm running 2.0 blacktop, Omex 600 and Omex throttle bodies.
Bill.
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daveb666
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| posted on 28/8/13 at 12:21 PM |
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Seems like it is most likely to be starter related then. I've already got some heat-wrap so I'll start with that as that fix is free
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daveb666
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| posted on 29/8/13 at 04:38 PM |
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Wrapping the starter motor tonight and then going out for a hard drive so I'll report back later!
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daveb666
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| posted on 29/8/13 at 09:12 PM |
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Well, an interesting evening for me.
Starter motor all wrapped up in it' little heat-proof blanket. Off for a drive, get to petrol station, filled up and it jusst started. Went to a
mates, had a natter and decided to go for a drive and it started up perfectly; weird!
Go for a drive and park up at a butty van for a brew, come to start the car again and it turns over slowwwly! Mate gives me a push and it bursts into
life. Finish off my brew and it's dead again, just a click!
Get a bump again and it doesn't start, just locks the wheels when I pop the clutch. On the phone to my dad who drives the 7 miles to pick me up
and tows me to his house. Torches and borrowed spanners ensue and the starter is removed. Quick push down the road and the car bursts into life.
Upon inspection the starter is totally seized solid - guess I need to purchase a new one of those then!
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AndyW
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| posted on 6/9/13 at 11:15 AM |
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Hi Dave,
Did you put a new starter on and did it cure the problem. Just finished putting mine back together and ran it up. Let the fan kick in and out and then
switched off. Tried to start and nothing, it's as if the battery is flat. It did exactly the same a week ago ( not used it since).
I am going to whack a good charge into the battery and see if that helps, if not it may be a new starter of some description. I could do with a
smaller one too, but don't want a lower powered starter.
Let me know how you got on please and thanks
Andy
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daveb666
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| posted on 6/9/13 at 11:29 AM |
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Hi mate, taken from my project thread:
quote:
Originally posted by daveb666
The starter motor was a Lucas (LRS707). For those of you that may need one of these in future, a company called Wood Autos in Huddersfield stocks a
smaller, lighter replacement:
 
Description
The part number for your reference is STR50041 and it costs about £60.
The car is now in bits as I'm fittin TBs but it starts 100times better with this motor than the old one.
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