Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 08:51 AM |
|
|
Is planning permission required for an underground garage?
Hi
Probably a strange one but I’ve been wondering about building a new garage on another part of my garden since my current one is overlooked by my
living room window which isn’t ideal really and it cuts out my light in the evenings.
My house is up on a raised bank with an access road running along the front of this bank, and the height difference is more than that of a transit van
so was thinking well why not cut into the bank and build a curved wall (tanked off course) along the back, put a flat roof on it, maybe even decking
over the top and use that as an underground garage with some steps down into it, or a pole like batman! Given the size of the bank I could easily make
it up to a 3 car one for very little expense, mostly just 6 inch concrete blocks and I am good at block laying.
Seeing that it’s completely hidden apart from the front door (I have a 3m wide electric panel door already on my current garage which I’d reuse) I’m
wondering if I’d even need any planning permission to build it?
Here's a rough doodle of my idea...
Any ideas?
Thanks
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Mr Whippy]
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Mr Whippy]
|
|
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:20 AM |
|
|
I would have thought the same rules apply as per a garage of the same size on the surface.
Been a while but I seem to recall you can't build too close to the boundry under permitted development. You are very likely to need planning
consent to put access onto the highway!
And given its underground it is going to need an engineer/ building control involvement obviously.
Easiest thing to do is to take some photos, refine your sketch a little and pop in to the local council planning/building control offices and ask them
the best course of action. The guys in the Plymouth office were nothing but helpful!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
|
|
|
Slater
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:22 AM |
|
|
Did you get the inspiration from this I wonder. Looks like you'll be able to keep Thunderbird 2 in there.
 
Why do they call Port Harcourt "The Garden City"?...... Becauase they can't spell Stramash.
|
|
|
NigeEss
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:22 AM |
|
|
I recall reading somewhere that you can build a "fallout bunker" without planning or building control 
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.................Douglas Adams.
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:24 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by NigeEss
I recall reading somewhere that you can build a "fallout bunker" without planning or building control
I read something similar a while ago...... Seems it was only some areas of the country and many of those have been revoked to prevent people storing
cars in their fallout bunkers :p
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:26 AM |
|
|
The fact that you are making an elevational change (adding the garage door), assuming this is on a front elevation I suspect you will need to make an
application.
Take some sketches in to the local council, the duty officer will be able to confirm.
Mistral Motorsport
|
|
|
nick205
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:35 AM |
|
|
Don't underestimate the cost of removing that much earth either!
|
|
|
whitestu
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:48 AM |
|
|
quote:
Don't underestimate the cost of removing that much earth either!
+1
We had our drive lowered and I think they took 10 grab lorry loads.
Stu
|
|
|
Smokey mow
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:57 AM |
|
|
Yes, you would need Planning Permission as it is classed as engineering works 
It's correct also that that buildings designed solely to protect people from the effecrs of war and nuclear attack are exempt from planning and
building control note though that's it's sole purpose must be as a shelter, if you keep a car in there or use it as a room or workshop
then it wont be exempt.
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Smokey mow]
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Smokey mow]
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 11:44 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
Don't underestimate the cost of removing that much earth either!
yeah your right though I have a large digger and our ground is large enough to move it else where
War bunker... hmm where I store my water food & vehicles to be used after the holocaust
Very helpful info so far thanks
|
|
|
v8kid
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 12:21 PM |
|
|
Still need building control. Tanking is a bit expensive and has to be done conscientiously.
I built a building similar size but only half underground and it cost me about £1500 for the tanking materials and the extra backup drainage. Done
carefully it is watertight in my experience although others on this forum have had different (painful) experiences
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
|
|
|
Irony
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 02:41 PM |
|
|
An actual man cave! A camouflaged door is a must!
|
|
|
Smokey mow
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 03:31 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Still need building control. Tanking is a bit expensive and has to be done conscientiously.
providing the internal floor area is kept below
30m2 then building regs wont be needed for the garage shown in the sketch.
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Smokey mow]
[Edited on 2/7/14 by Smokey mow]
|
|
|
Sam_68
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 06:07 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Smokey mow
Yes, you would need Planning Permission as it is classed as engineering works
It's correct also that that buildings designed solely to protect people from the effecrs of war and nuclear attack are exempt from planning and
building control note though that's it's sole purpose must be as a shelter, if you keep a car in there or use it as a room or workshop
then it wont be exempt.
There is no specific exemption for nuclear shelters under Planning. They arguably don't even fall within the scope of 'normal' Class
E Permitted development rules (relating to outbuildings), since Class E precludes uses as 'separate, self-contained living accommodation'.
You could try arguing that they aren't intended to provide permanent self-contained accommodation and that not being vapourised in the
event of a nuclear attack is 'incidental to the enjoyment of the house'. Or you could just claim that it's a very heavily
constructed garden shed...
They are exempt Building Regulations under the rules for
Class 6, provided they
meet the necessary criteria.
There is no separate classification for 'engineering works' under Planning, for works to domestic dwellings. The normal rules of Class E
Permitted Development would apply, but in this instance the OP's proposal seems to fall foul of the exemption criteria simply because it fronts
onto a highway (the 'access road' he refers to).
The definitive chapter-and-verse guidance on residential Permitted Development (the guidance that Planning Officers themselves will refer to when
determining the legality of development) is available
here. Fill ya boots!
|
|
|
Smokey mow
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 07:33 PM |
|
|
Sam, I was attempting to avoid getting too embroiled in the specifics of the GPDO and schedule 2 etc, but your insight is welcomed. either way in
this case the proposal would not appear to be exempt from Planning, however the need for Building Regs could be avoided
|
|
|
Sam_68
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 08:28 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Smokey mow
Sam, I was attempting to avoid getting too embroiled in the specifics of the GPDO and schedule 2 etc...
Then in simple language:
* Nuclear shelters are exempt from Building Regulations, but NOT Planning.
* The OP's proposal would require Planning as it is a structure which does not meet the requirements for Permitted Development.
* The suggested Planning classification of 'engineering works' is spurious in this context.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
At risk of getting embroiled alive, there has been a lot of analysis of the planning legalities of 'subterranean development' in some of
the high-value areas of London where 'basement extensions' can make economic sense. Various Local Planning Authorities (for instance
Kensington and Chelsea)
have issued Supplementary Planning Guidance (just 'guidance', if the 'Supplementary Planning' bit is too technical ) which
specifically confirms that subterranean development can fall within Permitted Development rights, subject to the normal rules.
There is no separate classification of 'engineering works' dictating that they should be treated any differently to other structures.
|
|
|
jossey
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 08:38 PM |
|
|
Read up on Permitted Development we did a 2.5m high garage 8m long which did not need planning permission.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
|
|
|
Sam_68
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 08:45 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jossey
Read up on Permitted Development we did a 2.5m high garage 8m long which did not need planning permission.
Yes, you can get away with a remarkable amount under permitted development, but the fly in the ointment in this case appears to be the position
of the building.
In simple terms (the link I gave above provides more detailed definitions), permitted development rights don't apply when the proposal is on a
road frontage.
|
|
|
Smokey mow
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 09:38 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Smokey mow
Sam, I was attempting to avoid getting too embroiled in the specifics of the GPDO and schedule 2 etc...
Then in simple language:
* Nuclear shelters are exempt from Building Regulations, but NOT Planning.
* The OP's proposal would require Planning as it is a structure which does not meet the requirements for Permitted Development.
* The suggested Planning classification of 'engineering works' is spurious in this context.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
At risk of getting embroiled alive, there has been a lot of analysis of the planning legalities of 'subterranean development' in some of
the high-value areas of London where 'basement extensions' can make economic sense. Various Local Planning Authorities (for instance
Kensington and Chelsea)
have issued Supplementary Planning Guidance (just 'guidance', if the 'Supplementary Planning' bit is too technical ) which
specifically confirms that subterranean development can fall within Permitted Development rights, subject to the normal rules.
There is no separate classification of 'engineering works' dictating that they should be treated any differently to other structures.
Section 55(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 defines development as.... "the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other
operations in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land." Hence my reference to
engineering operations
Basements under buildings are are specifically me tioned and exempted in section 55(2) "works begun after 5th December 1968 for the alteration
of a building by providing additional space in it underground" but the garage in question would not fall within this critera and therefore would
be classed as development by virtue of 55(1)
|
|
|
Sam_68
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:36 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Smokey mow
Section 55(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 defines development as.... "the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other
operations in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land." Hence my reference to
engineering operations
But the construction of a basement or subterranean building is straightforward building work, not engineering or mining. Engineering work would be the
construction of a road, bridge, drainage or earthworks feature, not the construction of a built space, whether above or below ground
In any case, the point being that you stated that permission would be required because the construction represented 'engineering work':
a) It does not represent engineering work.
b) From the description given by the OP, it requires planning permission not because its nature is 'engineering work', but because its
location within the curtilage of the property places it outside the scope of Permitted development.
quote:
Originally posted by Smokey mow
Basements under buildings are are specifically mentioned and exempted in section 55(2)
Your quote is incomplete and as a result the actual meaning is diametrically opposite from that you suggest!
Read it again carefully! The exemption is for "works to existing buildings which do not affect their external appearance",
but basements are specifically excluded from the exemption. To slightly condense and paraphrase the wording of the Act to improve its
readability and meaning for you, it says:
"works which affect only the interior of the building and are not works for the alteration of a building by providing additional space
in it underground shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land."
(my bold)
In other words, alterations to provide or enlarge a basement are specifically taken to represent development, and hence fall within the general
scope of Planning control.
Permitted Development rights for dwellings then allow them in certain circumstances (the same circumstances that apply to above-ground
development of extensions and outbuildings).
|
|
|
ste
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:39 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
Sam_68
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 10:53 PM |
|
|
To be fair, I do this (Planning) all day at work too, not just late-night spats on internet forums!
Consider yourself lucky: the difference is I'm not charging you a ludicrous amount of money to read my advice. 
|
|
|
Smokey mow
|
| posted on 2/7/14 at 11:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ste
well said sir
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/7/14 at 07:34 AM |
|
|
Cheers for all the reply’s, occurred to me that I should have mentioned I live in Scotland, the rules may be different
It certainly doesn't seem to be very clear cut what is required so I will go and see the local planning bunch and get a definitive answer
Thanks
|
|
|
mcerd1
|
| posted on 3/7/14 at 08:52 AM |
|
|
^^ I was just going to mention that....
none of the English rules apply up here, although some of our rules are similar
we use the Town and Country Planning Act (Scotland) 1997
you can get all the building reg's off Scotland.gov.uk
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/Building/Building-standards
but for the planning its best to get advice from your local office (they are meant to offer advice) they'll be able to tell you what planning
you need or don't (hopefully your planning dept. is more helpful than ours)
[Edited on 3/7/2014 by mcerd1]
[Edited on 3/7/2014 by mcerd1]
-
|
|
|
