jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare. - The
Scots will have their portion of the NHS to fund and run
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country). - I would
presume that a proportion of the armed forces will remain in Scottish hands, can't imagine the Scots Guards will not remain (as a for
instance)
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they
own, and the tourism they generate). - HMQ will remain head of state of an independent Scotland so not an issue.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by jeffw]
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 06:08 PM |
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Why are you surprised? You (collectively the Yes campaign) want to leave the union but think you should be allowed to keep the bits you want. Really
is remarkable that you think this is likely to happen. There is no advantage to the UK in a currency union with Scotland and even if there was there
is no way you are going to get it.
I think Scotland (and the Scots) has every right to choose in September and I wish you well. Just don't expect to be treated any differently to
any other foreign country if you decide to leave.
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 06:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Still not seen anything other than blind hope and wishes from the yes campaign.
The lack of effort put into fighting for togetherness by any uk party suggests the loss of Scotland from the economy won't be detrimental,
that's what leads me to worry.
Still seems to me like childish drum banging and clan mentality with no firm basis in reality (every single question asked of the yes campaign ends in
them saying "it will all be better, you're all wrong (fingers in ears). Its as if they genuinely beleive they will get the best of all
worlds. They want a divorce but to keep the joint account, the joint house, the joint everything and think everyone else will join their merry train
to lala land.
As an English person living in Scotland I'm getting a vote but I think of myself as a UK citizen, not English.with a smaller pot you can
bankroll fewer things. The recent claim they can take the license fee contributions, expend the same amount and get the same amount back proves to me
they don't understand what they are talking about. Great politicians but I predict (more) bloody awful governance.
You are painting with very broad strokes and little detail.
For me it has little to do with how I see my nationality, I happily call myself British. It is all to do with getting a government who are in line
with my views.
I appreciate that even if I get the YES vote I want that I still may not get the government I want. I appreciate that if I get the government I want
they may well still not deliver what I want. But as things stand I will never get what I want or even close, we are going to be stuck with half wit
governments who continually plunder the country to look after the few and waste billions on defence that could be spent on health care, education,
industry or any other amount of home grown causes. I can't see how it can be any worse than it is now.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 06:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
It will be a sad day if the Scottish electorate do decide to leave the UK. The biggest problem I see is that both sides have not been honest as you
can manipulate figures until the cows come home. From the figures I have seen there is no doubt Scotland will be okay on their own, so long as the oil
still flows, but if it all goes wrong there is no way the economic future is as good alone as together.
I agree
The people who should feel they get the worst deal is the English electorate, the Scottish Welsh and NI all have a vote on what we get to spend and do
but we have no say in Scotland. I object to free prescriptions, free tuition and free end of life care, when we have none of that in England and no
party suggests that we should have it.
Largely the UK gets the governement that England votes for, even in the years when Labour have been elected they would still have
been elected without any scottish votes. Scotland chooses to spend some of it's budget on these things, there is nothing to stop the UK
governments doing the same. Maybe if we weren't continually subjected to governments we don't want we wouldn't be having this
discussion
The main reason Salmond wants a yes vote is power, pure and simple. The only people who will benefit long term are the political elite of Scotland,
the average person will see no difference at all in their day to day life.If there is a YES vote then we will have to election and there is
every chance that SNP/Salmond will not be re-elected, I'm not his greatest fan.
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all
regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
That is a nice thought but unfortunately in the event
of a NO vote Scotland is going to be punished heavily by the removal of the Barnett formula.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 06:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
You are painting with very broad strokes and little detail.
For me it has little to do with how I see my nationality, I happily call myself British. It is all to do with getting a government who are in line
with my views.
I appreciate that even if I get the YES vote I want that I still may not get the government I want. I appreciate that if I get the government I want
they may well still not deliver what I want. But as things stand I will never get what I want or even close, we are going to be stuck with half wit
governments who continually plunder the country to look after the few and waste billions on defence that could be spent on health care, education,
industry or any other amount of home grown causes. I can't see how it can be any worse than it is now.
Cheers
Davie
You think we English get the government we voted for then? You don't get the government you want unless the majority voted for it...The number
of MPs in Scotland has distorted the situation in Westminster for many years. From that perspective the UK will be better off without Scotland.
I'll happily ship Blair/Darling/Brown etc etc back north of the border.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 06:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
If there is a YES vote then we will have to election and there is every chance that SNP/Salmond will not be re-elected, I'm not his greatest
fan.
I knew Scotland was one man, one vote, but I didn't realise that the one man was you Davie! 
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
we are each other's biggest trading partners. It would be spite-driven economic insanity for the remaining members of the UK to block a currency
union if Scotland does vote 'Yes'.
Separate currency does not mean no trade, though.
If Scotland is not dependent on the UK's GDP, then why is Salmond's gang so scared of a separate currency? You already print your own
banknotes, of a different design to the rest of the UK (which most self-respecting UK businesses already decline to accept), so it would be the
easiest thing in the world to have a 'Scottish Pound', independent of the UK Pound.
What are you afraid of?
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Sam - the Third World??? . Come on fella... we're trying to have a serious conversation here. Economists on both sides of the debate have long
been confident that Scotland would remain a wealthy country if it gained independence.
But for how long? Yes, there is wealth in Scotland that has built up over its long association with the rest of the UK. But it simply doesn't
have the GDP to sustain it in the long term. Put bluntly, long term, your development status depends on how much your economy is producing not
how much it has saved up for a rainy day - once you've spent your savings, they're gone. Independence would simply mean the beginning of a
slow decline (actually, as Jeff said, lots of Scottish companies are likely to relocate to the UK immediately, so the initial decline might not be so
slow).
At the moment, Scotland is part of the 6th largest economy in the world.
Independently, it drops down to position 44, between Pakistan and Kazakstan (I kid you not...)
With a big push on economic growth, you might actually aspire to matching Greece. Won't that be something to look forward to!? 
If you don't believe me, look at the list of GDP's here
(I'm using the World Bank's ranking, but the picture is similar across the board).
If you think my 'Third World' comment is that far from the mark, I suggest you take a closer look at some of your future neighbours
in the world rankings...
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect
anything different?
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country).
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they
own, and the tourism they generate).
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic
stability?
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and
Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets.
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and truthfully.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
The pound thing I have already dealt with.
NHS Scotland is already completely separate from NHS England NHS Wales and NHS NI. Control of NHS Scotland's budget has been completely
devolved to Hollyrood for years.
The Royal Family are the Royal Family of Scotland who because Queen Elizabeth I of England died childless inherited the right sit on the English
(and later some other Commonwealth thrones).
The current Queen Elizabeth was crowned in Westminster Abbey on the (some uber Nats will brag it is a fake substituted in 1953) Stone of Destiny
which makes Queen of Scotland. Even without independence Charles if he is allowed to succeed his mother will have to be crowned twice once in London
and once in in Edinburgh or Scone as the Stone of Destiny has been returned north of the border. The Royal Family have only a perilous finger
hold in Australia and Canada causing problems for Scotand together with Charles inheriting would likely tip them over the edge and NZ might even
follow suit.
The Royal family only really generate much tourism in London and Windsor. Royal tourism in Scotland is mainly down to the romantic tragedy of Mary
Queen of Scots, even in January you can't see the Royal Mile for swarms of Japanese, Americans, Canadian and increasing Euro tourists and
that ain't going to change.
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case
for Scotland. Europe is getting tired of "little englanders" England is not popular in Europe, they recognize Scotland is much more
pro-european.
Make no mistake there are major problems big things like what happens to the BBC and other smaller thorny issues such is Scotland entitled to a
share of the disproportionate number of state owned major works of art held in London galleries?
The defence question is also major issue, but no longer shackled to the illusion of being a world power I will point out that Scotland needs nuclear
missile armed submarines like a hole in the head, the money saved would more than pay for proper conventional armed forces.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Matt21
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:10 PM |
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It makes me laugh when there are a couple of 'school kids' on the TV bickering with each other about why it should or should not happen.
They must think theyre so cool when they come up with a good comeback...
One of which has no say in the matter at all (the English MP) and the other... well what can be said about him?!
Forget the 'debates', write the facts down so people can see whats what.
I work with a lot of scots, and not one of them can tell me why they are going to vote yes. I assume just because theyve watched braveheart a few
times.
quote:
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all
regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
Thats what it is now.... except that in Scotland you get free perscriptions etc etc that we dont.... yet a lot of scots think theyre hard done to and
want out (i'm going to say thats the majority, the vote will decide if im right or not)
If it is a 'no', do you honestly think that all these anti english scotsmen will change the way they veiw english people?
Until I started working offshore I didnt realise how racist people are. Of the folk I work with, 80% are from scotland, 90% of those have some issue
with english people.... whats that all about?!
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:12 PM |
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So more ScottishDagger than BritishTrident then.
The Yes campaign will continue to make promises which don't stack up. If you vote yes the effects will be pretty swift, watch the corporates
move out of Edinburgh like rats from a sinking ship. Mind you you are welcome to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland, sure we can arrange
the transfer of debt.
The spectre of the Scottish Parliament project will hang over everything an independent Scotland sets up. If Salmond say something will cost
£10M....it will cost you £100M (in Scottish Groats or whatever the currency is).
[Edited on 25/8/14 by jeffw]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic
stability?
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
Stuff...
You seem to have missed answering these two?
And, of course, you've been silent on the most important question of all... if the 'yes' vote wins, will you be changing your
username to scottishtrident? 
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:15 PM |
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He doesn't want to keep Trident....
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
He doesn't want to keep Trident....
...and he definitely doesn't want to keep Britain.
Money where his mouth is time: I reckon a change of username is in order right now, if he wants to maintain any credibility?
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt21
It makes me laugh when there are a couple of 'school kids' on the TV bickering with each other about why it should or should not happen.
They must think theyre so cool when they come up with a good comeback...
One of which has no say in the matter at all (the English MP) and the other... well what can be said about him?!
Forget the 'debates', write the facts down so people can see whats what.
I work with a lot of scots, and not one of them can tell me why they are going to vote yes. I assume just because theyve watched braveheart a few
times.
quote:
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all
regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
Thats what it is now.... except that in Scotland you get free perscriptions etc etc that we dont.... yet a lot of scots think theyre hard done to and
want out (i'm going to say thats the majority, the vote will decide if im right or not)
If it is a 'no', do you honestly think that all these anti english scotsmen will change the way they veiw english people?
Until I started working offshore I didnt realise how racist people are. Of the folk I work with, 80% are from scotland, 90% of those have some issue
with english people.... whats that all about?!
Sorry to tell you but having worked in europe being English isn't exactly top of the pops anywhere except perhaps in some parts of the USA. It
really is time England adjusted to the fact without an empire it is little more than a mothballed aircraft carrier for the USA.
The sole reason I want out is because since 1978 under Thatcher, Blair and now Lord Snooty I have seen England leaning more and more to the ultra
right, Farage, Osborne, Fox, Lettwin, Duncan-Smith and spineless Clegg all they will do is the devide nation more.
When I was younger the Conservative party had a human face I think because the people in it had went through two horrendous wars, too a large extent
the country was run by consensus between the parties.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:33 PM |
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Best you stay in Socialist Scotland then....now, about this username...
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case
for Scotland.
One thing that has crossed my mind here is that if Scotland were to need to apply to join the EU as an independent nation, would Spain veto it? Spain
could well object, as it would be setting a precedent for the Basque region to push for independence and immediate re-entry to the EU. Could other
countries have similar objections?
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtridentIt really is time England adjusted to the fact without an empire it is little more than a mothballed
aircraft carrier for the USA.
If that's true, then it's a mothballed aircraft carrier with the 6th largest economy in the world (despite having only the 22nd largest
population). We're actually still punching well above our weight on the world stage, despite your rather jaded view.
And what would that make Scotland? The pauperised, rusty and decaying destroyer escort of little more than a mothballed aircraft carrier?
A pompous, parochial little joke of a country... famous worldwide for its men wearing skirts, being pissed and playing a musical instrument that
sounds like a strangled cat.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by Sam_68]
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case
for Scotland.
One thing that has crossed my mind here is that if Scotland were to need to apply to join the EU as an independent nation, would Spain veto it? Spain
could well object, as it would be setting a precedent for the Basque region to push for independence and immediate re-entry to the EU. Could other
countries have similar objections?
All new countries joining the EU must agree to join the Euro.....so two birds with one stone, good luck with that. Also Spain has potential issues
with Catalan as well as Basque.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 07:49 PM |
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Interesting discussion, but can we keep to independence?
However I'm not sure why currency is such a large question. The UK cant stop Scotland using the £ and if Scotland joins Europe the it's
the euro. However i'm not sure why the idea of Scotland own currency has not gained traction, a favorable exchange rate against both the the £
and Euro would be good and help tourism and business grow.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by ceebmoj]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojThe UK cant stop Scotland using the £ ...
On what do you base that assertion? My understanding is that a country cannot share another country's currency as its principal currency,
without a mutual agreement of monetary union.
There are countries that use another country's currency as legal tender on a day-to-day basis (for example Panama and several others, I think,
use the the US dollar), but underpinned by a 'national' currency with a variable exchange rate.
There are both practical and political difficulties to monetarily linking two separately controlled economies; you need an exchange rate mechanism,
similar to that used for the Euro, which needs political agreement. The UK will be under no obligation to sign up to such an agreement. Without
it, Scotland has two choices: adopt another currency, or not function as a separate political and sovereign entity.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by Sam_68]
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU already have mechanisms for accelerated entry and special interim status for nations who have met entrance criteria which clearly is the case
for Scotland.
One thing that has crossed my mind here is that if Scotland were to need to apply to join the EU as an independent nation, would Spain veto it? Spain
could well object, as it would be setting a precedent for the Basque region to push for independence and immediate re-entry to the EU. Could other
countries have similar objections?
Steve
Spain have stated they will not veto Scotland ebtering the EU as long as they achieve independence legally i.e. by referendum.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:09 PM |
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Quite simple
Scotland using the UK Pound in a currency union will mean that the UKs Fiscal Policy will have to take into account economic conditions in Scotland
when the Bank of England sets interest rates etc.
Scotland using the UK Pound without a currency union means the UK can set its fiscal policy for itself and not a foreign country. Scotland might as
well use the Norwegian Kroner or the Yen for the advantage this will give them. No ability to deal with fiscal matters in an Independent Scotland.
Scotland having the Euro as the currency will depend on EU membership and them meeting the criteria to join. And then they will be members of a club
which is slowly destroying most of the countries that are members.
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmojThe UK cant stop Scotland using the £ ...
On what do you base that assertion? My understanding is that a country cannot share another country's currency as its principal currency,
without a mutual agreement of monetary union.
There are countries that use another country's currency as legal tender on a day-to-day basis (for example Panama and several others, I think,
use the the US dollar), but underpinned by a 'national' currency with a variable exchange rate.
There are both practical and political difficulties to monetarily linking two separately controlled economies; you need an exchange rate mechanism,
similar to that used for the Euro, which needs political agreement. The UK will be under no obligation to sign up to such an agreement. Without
it, Scotland has two choices: adopt another currency, or not function as a separate political and sovereign entity.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by Sam_68]
Your understanding is wrong.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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scootz
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Scotland having the Euro as the currency will depend on EU membership and them meeting the criteria to join. And then they will be members of a club
which is slowly destroying most of the countries that are members.
Ah, the trusty old 1-2.
The 'you're not getting into the EU' jab... followed swiftly by the 'and even if you do the EU is shit'
right hook.
Love it!
It's Evolution Baby!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 08:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Your understanding is wrong.
Cheers
Davie
Then, as I have requested already, put me right: tell me the basis for your assertion.
...otherwise you're just making it up.
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