hornetV2
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 02:17 PM |
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ADVICE PLEASE FOR R1 4C8 ENGINE
Hi
I have just bought a 2007 Yamaha R1 4C8 engine to go into my next project. This will be the Hornet Mk5 and will have an aluminium honeycomb monocoque
tub fitted with a front mounted R1 4C8 engine driving the rear wheels through a propshaft. Previous Hornets have been powered by Crossflows (one
subsequently changed to Zetec, a Rover V8, and best of all a Suzuki TL1000R V-twin.
I have been looking for a Honda Fireblade RR motor for a couple of years, but they appear to be way out of my price range. Consequently, when a ready
to install R1 4C8 engine came up for sale on this forum within my budget, I changed my mind and went for the R1.
The car will be used for racing, therefore please could I tap into your collective experience and ask what I should be considering regarding the use
of this engine?
As the engine sits at the moment (I’ve not seen it yet), it has had the following adaptations (in fact it completed 3 races as a prop driver by before
being replaced by a Hyabusa):
1. Engine breathing reed valves modified.
2. Power Commander 5 plus Autotune.
3. Sump modified (baffle plate and welding) by Andy Bates.
4. Additional oil cooler had been fitted, though it was retained for the Busa.
My considerations so far have been for:
1. A decent purpose built thick core alloy radiator.
2. Possibly fit an electric water pump.
3. Fit an additional oil cooler – not sure whether this would require a remote oil filter.
4. Fit an oil separator into the breathing system with a return to sump.
5. Retain the EXUP for the ECU’s benefit, but not as part of the exhaust system, as per previous owner.
6. Consider removing the variable intake stubs system.
The engine seems to have a poor reputation for reliability, but from what I have read this seems to be more to do with problems arising from their
installs (inadequate cooling of oil and water, breathing issues, confused ECU’s if the EXUP is removed, etc) rather than any inherent design weakness
with the engine.
Any information will be most welcome.
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 03:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by hornetV2
...My considerations so far have been for:
1. A decent purpose built thick core alloy radiator.
2. Possibly fit an electric water pump.
3. Fit an additional oil cooler – not sure whether this would require a remote oil filter.
4. Fit an oil separator into the breathing system with a return to sump.
5. Retain the EXUP for the ECU’s benefit, but not as part of the exhaust system, as per previous owner.
6. Consider removing the variable intake stubs system.
The engine seems to have a poor reputation for reliability, but from what I have read this seems to be more to do with problems arising from their
installs (inadequate cooling of oil and water, breathing issues, confused ECU’s if the EXUP is removed, etc) rather than any inherent design weakness
with the engine.
Any information will be most welcome.
All my hands on experience is 5vy motor but a lot of it does cross over to the 4c8 I think.
1. Shouldn't need it especially if you do No3. I'm running a Polo1.3 rad and it was OK for cooling before oil cooler and now is
overcooling if anything. JimGiblett is using the (tiny) bike rad in his Fury an has no heat issues even on long Alpine climbs (high load/revs and low
speed)
2. Don't think it's needed. Probably just over complicating things.
3. I replaced the oil-water cooler with a take-off block rather than a sandwich plate behind the oil filter. Used
THIS FROM JJC. It just needs a stub
bolt from the oil filter fitting and the supplied center bolt trimming down a bit. I went for a 23row cooler and I'm having to almost comletetly
blank that to get enough oil temp now. Water temps are also better without the heat load from the oil... but you do have to give it plenty of time to
warm up.
4. You could. I just have some mesh in the cam take-off (ex AISvalve housing) for oil to condense on and run back and some in the hose off the
gearbox. Get nothing of significance in my bottle except a bit of oily water on cold days/short runs.
5. Either that or fit the EXUP widget thats listed in a thread somewhere here. Don't just run without. I agree with AndyBates on this being the
cause of several recurring failures.
6. Dunno.
I think the reliability concerns stem from No5 and the fact that No4cylinder only has water jacket on 3/4 of it. The last bit is cooled by the oil
running down the cam chain gallery. Causes that cyl' to run hotter and can cause detonation in extreme. Oil cooler helps as does not having too
high a target AFR. They tend to go lean when feathering the throttle at high revs (something thats rare to do on the bike but easy in a car) and often
not checked when mapping. Guy who built my motor (ex-Virgin Yamaha BSB) said they have no trouble on circuits but issues at IoM where little lifts
were more common on the long fast sections. My PowerCommander is trimmed +1% on no 4.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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hornetV2
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 03:28 PM |
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Thanks for the speedy and detailed reply.
Re the additional water pump, I would rather stay with the OE pump to save on complexity and cost.
[Edited on 27/10/14 by hornetV2]
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TimC
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 06:33 PM |
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Hi,
You seem to have it all covered. I've not yet run my engine so can't really offer my experience. The take-off plate I've used can be
seen here: http://www.farcester.com/2014/03/pipe-down.html?m=1
I've been advised that the oil cooler for racing should be LARGE. Hence, mine is.
I've admired the Hornet at the Birkett. What are you going to race; is it RAF or similar?
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 06:44 PM |
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I asked AndyB how big an oil cooler to go for. He said the biggest you can fit or the biggest you can afford.
After my Alps trip and a couple of track days I found oil temp only just hit 80c so I had to make a cover out of one of
THESE
...and even then only need it slightly open.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Kev99
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 06:54 PM |
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Hi Ive had the 4C8 2008 in an Indy for over 3 years now and use it for track days but not Racing
1 Running a standard Polo Rad but have it ducted to force the air through it
2 Running standard bike one
3 Running a 13 row oil Cooler but have a stat in it so it only opens at 80 deg so ok on cool days( Oil is getting hot with this on a hot track-day 110
to 120 need to ducted it or use larger 1)
4 I have a Oil separator Fitted as kept getting a good amount of oil breathing into catch tank on track days only
5 kept exup in place as A Bates advice
6 running a sausage filter ATM ( but would Run the full air-box if it fitted under the bonnet)
[Edited on 27-10-14 by Kev99]
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bigfoot4616
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 07:05 PM |
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as your racing it i would go for a decent alloy rad, mine came from andy bates which looks identical to the radtec one. not cheap but the quality
looks much better than the cheap ones. a mate phoned up radtec and they made him one with the correct size hose outlets for a bike engine.
mine is a 5vy like adi's but on a warm day with the standard polo rad after 10 minutes(sometimes less) on track oil was hitting 125 and rising
fast.
i upped the oil cooler to a 19 row, ducted the rad and cut some vents to let engine bay heat out. none of this made that much difference.
fitting the alloy rad cured the problem, didn't even need to duct it. infact if mine was a road car i think i would fit an oil stat as it will
overcool. on a cool trackday i have to blank of some of the oil cooler.
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TimC
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| posted on 27/10/14 at 07:19 PM |
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I forgot to say, on (6) I have dumped the variable inlets as you won't use them at all at racing revs. My natty carbon filter tray looks like
this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L4sgQOvC7cU/Uy_esQ088KI/AAAAAAAAC3o/-FLg73SBRj4/s1600/2014-03-24
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hornetV2
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| posted on 28/10/14 at 07:58 AM |
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Thanks very much for all the info. That is all good gen, either direct experience, based on other peoples knowledgeable input, or just good common
sense 
I now appreciate the reasoning re the oil cooler with respect to how No4 cylinder is cooled - great to have the reason for doing something. Re the
cooling I would prefer to have greater capacity than I would generally need and then use thermostat/ blanking to regulate it to the conditions of the
day.
I would prefer to remove the additional variable intake gizmo as I want to keep the height of the airbox as low as practical (I intend mounting it to
the side, above the transmission part of the engine). Additionally, as it will be used for racing, the engine wont be spending much time below 10,000
RPM, which I believe is approximately the engine revs that the engine reverts to the shorter stub-stacks anyway. I was wondering if there was
anything I had to do regards signals to/from the ECU if this is removed?
Re racing, I have been sprinting since 1987 with the Hornet Mk1 and then moved into circuit racing in 1991 with the subsequent Hornets. I'd had
enough of championships a few years back as my main enjoyment comes from having a good battle with someone rather than finishing position.
Consequently, some friends and myself (Tigers, RWD Fiesta with a turbo Cossie, classic Mini, BMW Mini with a turbo SAAB engine, etc) just cherry-pick
events that give us the most enjoyment and value-for money. I am lucky enough to have two cars to choose from, so again pick the car most suited to
whatever else is on the track. I have 4 20 minute races for £250! in a couple of weeks time, and will also be racing at the Plum Pudding at Mallory
on Boxing Day. Next year going back to St Goueno in France for their awesome hill-climb, then the usual allcomers races in the UK
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hornetV2
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| posted on 28/10/14 at 08:10 AM |
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Hi Tim
I have just looked at your take-off plate, that is really neat What remote filter are you using?
The trumpet/filter tray is also neat, but not within my budget (equivalent of a packet of fags and a pint a day) 
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